Remove or change drink

Domander

Cthalion wrote: »

We do give up damage. A lot. Maybe I exaggerated, but you got my point.

It just sounds like you are stuck in beta mode or something. I have a lot of regen, and saying "not ever" is ridiculous. Pressing situations can drain almost any regen. Anyway, not trying to be harsh, just discussing.

And yeah, I/we have taken advantage. You can too. Each alliance has access to the same classes, gear and skills.

Who says I don't? lol

I just miss when managing resources was a skill that really mattered. What's the point of cc break, dodge roll, high cost abilities, etc.. if it's easy to have plenty of resources to cast/use them all?

Cthalion

I see where you are coming from actually.

To go in that direction however, CC needs longer immunity and/or higher cost. No one wants to be feared EVERY 8 sec, stunned, etc.

Agree on that at least?

Domander

Cthalion wrote: »

I see where you are coming from actually.

To go in that direction however, CC needs longer immunity and/or higher cost. No one wants to be feared EVERY 8 sec, stunned, etc.

Agree on that at least?

Yeah, and I think it's 5 seconds currently.

Zsymon

If you increase CC immunity, fights are going to get very boring very fast, and you'll be asking for it to be changed back again. Being able to be stunned every 5 seconds is not too much, 5 seconds is a long time in PvP. Increase the duration and you won't even be slotting hard CCs anymore, back like with Immovable.

About drinks, they are absolutely fine the way they are now, nerf them and again no one will ever use them, just like before. There is a perfect balance now between drinks and food, they are both good but neither is better than the other. People that want dps go for food, people that want sustain go for drinks.

Cthalion

Zsymon wrote: »

If you increase CC immunity, fights are going to get very boring very fast, and you'll be asking for it to be changed back again. Being able to be stunned every 5 seconds is not too much, 5 seconds is a long time in PvP. Increase the duration and you won't even be slotting hard CCs anymore, back like with Immovable.

About drinks, they are absolutely fine the way they are now, nerf them and again no one will ever use them, just like before. There is a perfect balance now between drinks and food, they are both good but neither is better than the other. People that want dps go for food, people that want sustain go for drinks.

Yeah I actually agree with that. My point was that if you take away drinks, then reduce the CC. Regardless of the MMO, no one likes constant CC. Regen supplies relief to that. Honestly I think things are fine now as is also.

Domander

Zsymon wrote: »

If you increase CC immunity, fights are going to get very boring very fast, and you'll be asking for it to be changed back again. Being able to be stunned every 5 seconds is not too much, 5 seconds is a long time in PvP. Increase the duration and you won't even be slotting hard CCs anymore, back like with Immovable.

About drinks, they are absolutely fine the way they are now, nerf them and again no one will ever use them, just like before. There is a perfect balance now between drinks and food, they are both good but neither is better than the other. People that want dps go for food, people that want sustain go for drinks.

If immunity were increased, the cost would need to be as well.

The difference is that the increases to regen are way way way more than to max stats. Just look at medium and light armor, and other buffs.

olsborg

Ezareth wrote: »

And Stamina cost reduction enchants should be split into ability reduction and dodge/roll break free

Doing these things would help eliminate many of the "infinite" resource builds out there without significantly impacting those who aren't abusing them.

This would make it look like the CP under the thief, where you can choose ability reduction or breakfree/dodge reduction, brilliant idea @Ezareth hope zos implements it. The stam cost reduction enchantments atm is OP because it reduces all stamina cost except block and bash. Afaik.

ToRelax

"Constant CC" is to drain your stam, if you increase the duration of the immunity, I won't have to invest *anything* into stamina management. Would make fights even more boring because resource management would be even easier.

Besides that, the immunity when you break always was and still is 8 seconds. Only when you get auto immunity when an effect ends it will be 5 seconds.

Domander wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

We do give up damage. A lot. Maybe I exaggerated, but you got my point.

It just sounds like you are stuck in beta mode or something. I have a lot of regen, and saying "not ever" is ridiculous. Pressing situations can drain almost any regen. Anyway, not trying to be harsh, just discussing.

And yeah, I/we have taken advantage. You can too. Each alliance has access to the same classes, gear and skills.

Who says I don't? lol

I just miss when managing resources was a skill that really mattered. What's the point of cc break, dodge roll, high cost abilities, etc.. if it's easy to have plenty of resources to cast/use them all?

Couldn't agree more.

Varicite

OdinForge wrote: »

If you think players running regen don't have to resource manage, you're very mistaken.

Players focused mainly on managing resources manage resources better than players who aren't.

WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO!

Varicite

Cinbri wrote: »

So, drinks were useless since release of game, and after its buff people started to complain about it?! Are you just serious?

This happened to bows, 2handers, and stamina builds as well. ; )

Sanct16

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

Bashev

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

technohic

Would rather just have the soft caps again than change food.

Sanct16

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

Bashev

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

How a skilled player generated more ultimate that a normal player? You want to say that some AoE crit builds were performing better for ultimate generation. What is the skill spamming heals for ultimate generation?
Example: Have you watch latest Sypher's Stamina NB play. With that build Sypher wont generate more ultimate than a SaP essence NB. But Sypher is a skillful player, right?

Ezareth

glavius wrote: »

Drinks give exactly same value as food in total value. (if you compare the values to set bonuses from gear)
So if they remove drinks, we can just use food, and focus our set bonuses on regen. Same result with less gear variety...

It is a lot easier to stack multiplicative values on top of base drinks insead of base food. I don't think the set bonuses are the same ratios either, plus health regen is worthless so you can go with blue V10 food and increase the values you care about even higher.

glavius

Purple food is equal in stats to 9 item set bonuses. Blue drinks are equal in regen to 8 set bonuses. I do agree its harder to find sets that have spell dmg combined with regen though.

Joy_Division

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

How a skilled player generated more ultimate that a normal player? You want to say that some AoE crit builds were performing better for ultimate generation. What is the skill spamming heals for ultimate generation?
Example: Have you watch latest Sypher's Stamina NB play. With that build Sypher wont generate more ultimate than a SaP essence NB. But Sypher is a skillful player, right?

"skilled" isn't exactly the right word. but there were more options available that a player could take advantage of to generate more ultimate which led to more build variety.

ToRelax

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

How a skilled player generated more ultimate that a normal player? You want to say that some AoE crit builds were performing better for ultimate generation. What is the skill spamming heals for ultimate generation?
Example: Have you watch latest Sypher's Stamina NB play. With that build Sypher wont generate more ultimate than a SaP essence NB. But Sypher is a skillful player, right?

"skilled" isn't exactly the right word. but there were more options available that a player could take advantage of to generate more ultimate which led to more build variety.

Yes, I always had to choose wether to spam WoE, Impulse or Streak to generate ultimate...
I don't like the new system at all, but the old one certainly didn't help with build variety.

Oughash

ToRelax wrote: »

Yes, I always had to choose wether to spam WoE, Impulse or Streak to generate ultimate...
I don't like the new system at all, but the old one certainly didn't help with build variety.

Sure, but at least there was some risk vs. reward payoff. Now its just static and stupid. The larger group will always have more ults -- which are the abilities that determine the results of most fights greater than 1v1.

Joy_Division

ToRelax wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

How a skilled player generated more ultimate that a normal player? You want to say that some AoE crit builds were performing better for ultimate generation. What is the skill spamming heals for ultimate generation?
Example: Have you watch latest Sypher's Stamina NB play. With that build Sypher wont generate more ultimate than a SaP essence NB. But Sypher is a skillful player, right?

"skilled" isn't exactly the right word. but there were more options available that a player could take advantage of to generate more ultimate which led to more build variety.

Yes, I always had to choose wether to spam WoE, Impulse or Streak to generate ultimate...
I don't like the new system at all, but the old one certainly didn't help with build variety.

Not true. Everyone runs spell / weapon power now and crit is seen as a "bad" enhancement. People might actually equip something other than Martial Knowledge if crit still proced ultimate. Also who use WoE now? Nobody. People might actually have a reason to use that skill if it generated ult. There would be more gear and build variety

ToRelax

Joy_Division wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

ZOS should just admit that 1.6 was a fail and revert to 1.5. Because there we actually had a pretty balanced game.They should have just added the new skills and champion system and it would have been fine.

The ultimate generation in 1.5 was really bad designed. All the rest was somehow OK.

Totally disagree, the ultimate generation in 1.6 is total crap. In 1.5 it made sense, if you fought many opponents you got more Ultimate than when you zerged someone down. Both in pve and pvp skilled players were able to gain more Ultimate. I would have been fine with replacing the Ultimate gain from cross and replace it withsomething else so you have other ways to gain ultimate in boss fights. And remove Ultimate gain out of combat.

How a skilled player generated more ultimate that a normal player? You want to say that some AoE crit builds were performing better for ultimate generation. What is the skill spamming heals for ultimate generation?
Example: Have you watch latest Sypher's Stamina NB play. With that build Sypher wont generate more ultimate than a SaP essence NB. But Sypher is a skillful player, right?

"skilled" isn't exactly the right word. but there were more options available that a player could take advantage of to generate more ultimate which led to more build variety.

Yes, I always had to choose wether to spam WoE, Impulse or Streak to generate ultimate...
I don't like the new system at all, but the old one certainly didn't help with build variety.

Not true. Everyone runs spell / weapon power now and crit is seen as a "bad" enhancement. People might actually equip something other than Martial Knowledge if crit still proced ultimate. Also who use WoE now? Nobody. People might actually have a reason to use that skill if it generated ult. There would be more gear and build variety

I dropped Impulse for WoE when the range was reduced, making it impossible for me to stay alive in range.
I dropped WoE because the damage was nerfed into the ground, it's friggin useless.
I don't run spell power nor crit, but both are good. Both were pretty bad in 1.5, I only used Inner Light for NBs and Critical Surge.

Jules

Soft caps are not necessary. They were removed for a reason, and with their removal came a plethora of possibility. People stack high regen or high damage. Or they try to find a balance between the two. The system as it currently is gives people an opportunity to play in the way that they'd like to, rather than being pidgeonholed into one specific build due to hitting arbitrary soft caps.

Players can have high burst damage with over 3k weapon damage or they can have high sustain and play the "who runs out of resources first" fight. All classes have positives and negatives. IE: NB's have high burst and great synergy with stamina, but they have no class shields or self heals. Things should certainly be tweaked here and there. I think nirnhoned needs to be reduced or reinforced needs to be brought up to its level. I think there needs to be a stamina regen mundus and a spell damage mundus as there are neither. But reinstalling soft caps would be taking a step backwards.

Xeven

I really dont have a problem with high regen in the game. With limited resources fights are about attrition and resources management. With high regen fights are more about counter play/burst, and are a hell of a lot more action packed.

I kill permarolling nerds all day erryday. Magicka Detonation>Curse>Streak>BOOM! Instead of taking things away, they should buff things to provide more counterplay.

I likely wouldn't roll with a Lightning Staff, Magicka Detonation or Curse, but I have to counter rollspam, ball of light, and scales. So, if you cry that the sorc got away, look at your bars. Do you have a gap closer and maneuver on your bar? No? Then you don't have the tools to kill a sorc. That is a consequence of your choices, not the "imbalance" of bolt escape or regen drinks.

Tbh, I still think drinks are terrible. They support this suboptimal "perma" meta. Permarolling, permablocking, permabolting etc. That's just fantastic, more kills for me because you sure as hell aren't putting so much as a scratch on my ward while spamming those abilities. Eventually I'm going to land dat money burst timing and you are going to es'plode just like anyone else.

EDIT:
The only reason food is better is because it improves all of your abilities. The moment they take that away drinks become king, because a bigger bucket does you absolutely no good if your bucket is never full.

This lesson on game mechanics has been brought to you by Uncle Xeven.

Xsorus

Dodge Rolling has counters, I've killed quite a few Dodge Rollers since switching to Magicka on my DK...Like 3 or 4 Whips and they're dead.

I'd like to have Dots as the counter to Shield Attacks

Then stacking Just Stamina/Stamina regen could be countered by certain Magicka Builds whipping your face

and Shields could be countered by people loading up Dots on ya.