What's wrong with Veteran Ranks?

Snoopsy

Hi all,

I have been a forum lurker for about a year now, and I have seen countless numbers of threads regarding the outrage of ZOS' veteran ranking system, and quite honestly, I don't get it. Yes, veteran ranks are hard to achieve, but why shouldn't they be? To be the best in MMO's takes time and dedication, not some push-over content you can complete in a week. I am a very casual player and I have only one character veteran rank 1, but I actually enjoy the veteran ranks. To me, that 12 million xp I need seems full of promise and content. (It's kinda why I like Animal Crossing so much.) I like being able to go home and know there's content for me in ESO because of the Veteran Ranks and the Cadwell Silver and Gold. I enjoy doing dungeons, and would gladly run them over and over for XP because that's what the game is. If people don't like Veteran Ranks because it takes too long to get there, you're basically saying I don't want to play the game long enough to get there, and why not? You're playing a game! Now, I understand the argument of wanting to reach end game content faster, but isn't it more rewarding to earn your way there rather than have ZOS nerf it.

Again, I've only ever lurked the forums, so tell me if there's a harsher reality to Veteran Ranks that I'm not seeing.

Valymer

If there was any challenge at all to veteran content I could see your point, but grinding 1000000 mobs or completing hundreds of quests does not make you a better player. Just a dedicated one, I guess.

BuggeX

First of all, you will Need 14kk exp for v14.
The Problem of the Vet is, that after silver/Gold, u will hit v10. With Craglorn v12. if u rly do everything possible with all dungeons etc. At this Point you will have to grind, or repead the qs in carg for v14.
Second Point is, there are not much Options to lvl through the Vets.
Grinding? hmmmm
Questing? yea but just to a certian Point
Dungeons? not enoght exp, expect DSA wich give u 200k
PVP? nahh

I rly like the Vet lvls, i dont like twinking so for me this isnt a Problem, but i understand others well.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

i think its the pvp problems. the difference in power between the same build of a vr1 and a vr14 is really noticable. I think its pvp leet's that whine and complain that they have to play pve. Im like the op, i dont see a problem with vet ranks, and ill wager a guess there are more pve'ers than pvp'ers, however pvp'ers are the most vocal on the forums, and thus the game is changed to fit the leets wishes, ignoring the wishes of the pve'ers.

What needs to happen, once you enter cyrodiil, your gear and level are all lowered/heightened to a specific level. everyone has the same stats.This allows the pvp to be based on skill, and all those balance crier's will finally stop griping, and play the game, knowing they cant say jack, and finally admin that they suck, rather than it being a issue of balance

NewBlacksmurf

The problem with vet levels is this:
Now that we have champion points, it's a confusing addition to post 50 leveling that becomes a duplicate effort
-the vet content prior to vet level 11 is breaking the group play or world immersion and at war concepts by sending an adventurer through other factions. (The silver and gold quests should exist but not in the way they exist and not be suggested content at all

-the champion points share by account vs. vet levels being per character (what?)
-the completion of the game should allow a specific character to begin new content without an 80-100 level grind (vet 10 is like playing the game twice so I'm converting vet levels into character levels for silver n gold quest which are approx 80-100)

- vet levels are used to limit content instead of gear progression which is another hurdle
- Vet levels screw up the grouping tools as it creates a +5 levels issue so it makes it impossible to find a group in Craglorn and vet dungeons
- They were added for vertical progression and now we have it with champion points so no need for two
- The vet skills can still be earned per character just base it on a per character champion point. 1 champion point exp per character equals 1 skill and stat point. No it's not the same but if the vet level is removed the calculation of a new point should follow a champion level with a max of 14 skill/stat points

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO

It's because we're used to easy life of not putting in any effort to be rewarded.

leshpar

As a new player who came in during the WBW (thank you ZOS for doing that!) I have to say I am actually looking forward to veteran ranks and being able to do everything with my main/first character. Its going to be exciting to me because its new.

Now if you've done it all before a time or two I could understand it getting old. Maybe we should add a boost to exp gain at veteran ranks once you have at least 1 VR14 character on your account? That could solve the issue people are having.

I do not want them to nerf it for the first character people get that high though. The first time it should be a grind and one that you can't finish in a week.

wOOOOt_of_SD

Vet levels are fine - its the part where you are forced to do them, and only have quests to get the xp at a way to slow rate.

If Vet levels were free and optional for the questing - story lovers it would be a different deal.
That should of course be combined with much much better xp for pvp, grinding and dungeon runs.

Lord_Kreegan

I don't mind the veteran ranks themselves, but I despise the Cadwell's Silver and Gold scheme. That completely kills the joy of having alts.

Consider: we don't have separate racial starting areas; we don't have separate class quest lines; and classes and races aren't all that differentiated because you can choose any weapon and armor mix and have commonality among a lot of non-class/non-race skills. So, having players repeat faction quest lines on their characters who reach veteran ranks means you're replaying that which you've already done before... and if you have lots of characters (I have eight), you're already replaying that material because of the faction system.

The Veteran Rank scheme was an artificial means of extending the duration of game-play. With Cadwell's Silver and Gold, it feels like what it is: a poorly tacked-on time sink. That's my gripe with it.

DezIsDead

What's wrong with vet levels?
1)when ESO launched their were no vet levels. Then they kept adding levels because people qq'd about lack of content and getting to end game to fast.
2) ask me again when your on your 3rd VR (or more, I have 6) and tell me how much fun it is playing the same lame caldwells silver and gold over and over when really all you want is a Templar to help heal for your guild.
3) 14 million f*cking XP. That's a big one right there
4) I believe it was stated a few times they said they were going to remove them with launch of champion system. Yet their still here pissing me off.


On another note, first play through it's not that bad, it's all fresh. 2 and 3rd VR toons it's a pita. Also to the guy hating on PvPers, it's not just a PvP issue, if your in a competitive end game PvE guild (you might be idk) see if they will take a v5 to a trial run. O they won't, because your a liability. I agree PvPers are the most vocal, but you can't blame one portion of the gaming community for everything.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

DezIsDead wrote: »

What's wrong with vet levels?
1)when ESO launched their were no vet levels. Then they kept adding levels because people qq'd about lack of content and getting to end game to fast.

ive played since beta, and there has been vet levels since launch. They added vr11-vr14, but at launch vr10 was the level cap. you should check your information before posting

DezIsDead

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

DezIsDead wrote: »

What's wrong with vet levels?
1)when ESO launched their were no vet levels. Then they kept adding levels because people qq'd about lack of content and getting to end game to fast.

ive played since beta, and there has been vet levels since launch. They added vr11-vr14, but at launch vr10 was the level cap. you should check your information before posting

No dood vr1 was level cap I'm pretty sure, might of. Even vr5,I've also played since launch, I'm pretty sure I was maxed at 50 for a bit. Then vr10 then v14. But hey I'll double check it has been a year.

drackonir

DezIsDead wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

DezIsDead wrote: »

What's wrong with vet levels?
1)when ESO launched their were no vet levels. Then they kept adding levels because people qq'd about lack of content and getting to end game to fast.

ive played since beta, and there has been vet levels since launch. They added vr11-vr14, but at launch vr10 was the level cap. you should check your information before posting

No dood vr1 was level cap I'm pretty sure, I've also played since launch, I'm pretty sure I was maxed at 50 for a bit. Then vr10 then v14. But hey I'll double check it has been a year.

I probably live in alternate reality , Vet ranks were from the very start. Only people who were not able to progress beyond 50 were those with bugged Molag bar quest.

OP - this topic will not give you answers you are looking for. Instead, it is a candle to which all the moths crying about removing vet ranks will come. they are the loudest and they will stone all others with mostly nonsense arguments.

DezIsDead

Idk maybe I'm wrong delete me!

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO

I don't get these "Gated form contents cause level" thing.

That's like, in almost every MMO?

We're lucky ESO PvE is so easy. If you have played any past MMO or Korean MMO, they gate you on

1) Level
2) gear
3) class
and
4) How much are you willing to pay?

I really prefer being able to gain 1 or 2 vet level a day compared to having to farm for 15 hours straight for 4 days just to earn enough to buy one of the 7 gears to be able to participate in lower end-game raids that drop recipe that require you to farm for a whole month just to craft it, not upgrading it.

Upgrade = 10$ a pop unlike you are willing to risk breaking the item.

Mivryna

Getting to end-game content requires getting to veteran rank 12, which requires exhausting all the quests in all the zones, and it's nothing but another level grind that leaves the world barren with nothing to do. This is the antithesis of Elder Scrolls gameplay. At some point the world should open up to the player as an opportunity, not as a chore.

I would rather see new dynamic events added to the world's existing zones that level 50 players have a reason to go back and participate in. Something to make the world feel more alive. I would also like to see seasonal gear progression, so that there's always something to strive for, but without the problems other MMOs have with power creep. Hell, maybe veteran ranks could work seasonally too; just about 10 levels require only regular EXP to level, that reset with every expansion.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I don't get these "Gated form contents cause level" thing.

That's like, in almost every MMO?

We're lucky ESO PvE is so easy. If you have played any past MMO or Korean MMO, they gate you on

1) Level
2) gear
3) class
and
4) How much are you willing to pay?

I really prefer being able to gain 1 or 2 vet level a day compared to having to farm for 15 hours straight for 4 days just to earn enough to buy one of the 7 gears to be able to participate in lower end-game raids that drop recipe that require you to farm for a whole month just to craft it, not upgrading it.

Upgrade = 10$ a pop unlike you are willing to risk breaking the item.

this guy, this guy right here gets it, I ABSOLUTLY HATE mmo who's endgame gates you because you dont have a CR rating, which is gained by armor with CR on it. Id rather earn experiance at a slow rate than have to be forced into the same dungeon over and over to get gear to qualify for the next dungeon.

RainfeatherUK

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

We're lucky ESO PvE is so easy.

I wouldn't call it luck. More like a *** take. I doubt a cat, sat randomly on someones keyboard could fail to complete it at this point. Cat walks up and down a few times, should be enough to kill doshia. Hell, its doable naked and im sure eventually even with no weapons at all.

Veteran ranks just need revision more than they do removal. People like progression and meaning, so just switch them into something that builds on that and integrates with the champion system and future content development.

Titansteele

There are quite a few thread on this topic, I am firmly in the camp of "leave the Vet levels as is and adjust exp rewards to make it possible to hit vr14 by doing silver, gold and then lower craglorn"

technohic

Too much time for so little reward. Although; I will say that I like them better than the infinite champion system. They are pretty much the same purpose. Filler in place of content. The only difference is that with VR levels, you had plateaus for a while so you could stop playing when you got bored and catch up later.

Dragnelus

How does xp in silver and gold quests works? Does it matter if its a vr1 or vr6 zone? I mean does the quests give the samen xp? I lvl slow but at the same time too fast for the zones I think. Im vr6 almost 7 and I just started with the skyrim zone from sulver I need 2 zones and then Ive done silver. But as im almost vr7 im lvling in a vr4 zone. Not really challenging.

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

We're lucky ESO PvE is so easy.

I wouldn't call it luck. More like a *** take. I doubt a cat, sat randomly on someones keyboard could fail to complete it at this point. Cat walks up and down a few times, should be enough to kill doshia. Hell, its doable naked and im sure eventually even with no weapons at all.

Is kay, the players will find a way to make life too hard for them because this is an Elder scroll series game, right?

Like, ANYBUILD IS VIABLE so they decide to play a magical archer who never eats any food because she doesn't want to be fat. No tears will be shed when she loses her life in the dungeon for she already outlived her usefulness.

Kublakan

Like many said it already, the problem wasn't with Caldwell's quests, it does level at a certain pace. It's when you were done with it, and done with Cyrodiil, Craglorn was so much nerfed, it was taking forever to level from 12 to 14. Craglorn was empty, no more xp group, because of the nerf, so we were like in an impasse. Now, we are getting there...

But personally, if you want to get fast to 14 from 11-12, go to Cyrodiil and do the dailies, they do give nice amount of xp, plus the fun to pvp.

rlbolab14a_ESO

The biggest problem I see with VR level's is in two parts that directly conflict with each other. First, VR level's make a big difference in PvP. You could be a much better player then joe shmow over there but he's VR14 and you are a VR1, and because of that he beats you. Because of this people are trying to hit VR14 in order to be more competitive. The second part is that they have already announced that they will be removing VR level's from the game. The train of thought here is, why are they making it so hard to hit VR14, for me to be competitive, when they are planning on removing it anyways? Instead of making it easier they actually made it harder to hit VR14. If your going to remove VR level's, then let me hit VR14 quickly so I can play and ENJOY the game in PvP until you remove the VR level's.

Some people will argue that the reason they can't make VR14 easy to get to is this: I finally hit VR14 and they take away VR level's, I'm going to be upset because they made me work hard for those level's and I'm going to want to be compensated for that time and effort. To that I say, we received champion points on our experience gained after level 50, not after level VR14. Which means we have already been rewarded for the VR levels with champion points. And this comes back to if we have already been rewarded, why the hell make VR level's harder to attain? Shouldn't it be easier so we can just get on with the game instead of wasting time grinding till our finger's go numb?

joshisanonymous

To be fair, most of the distaste seems to come from people leveling up alts and not wanting to do the other factions' content, although I have seen a good amount of people who just don't want to level up even their first character. I find the whole thing pretty odd, as well. Somewhere along the line, people started viewing MMORPGs as glorified FPSs instead of RPGs. I think a lot of that has to do with games like GW2, which have made leveling trivial. I personally prefer a long leveling process, even for alts. I remember when getting characters to max level in DAoC felt like a real accomplishment. It's nice having that experience.

I think the issue with ESO specifically is also frustrated by the two crowds they're catering to: MMO players and TES players. The former expect very little story and a quick ride to "end-game," which is often viewed as the real game, while the latter are more likely to be in it for the story and the whole of the experience.

Valymer wrote: »

If there was any challenge at all to veteran content I could see your point, but grinding 1000000 mobs or completing hundreds of quests does not make you a better player. Just a dedicated one, I guess.

When VR content was more challenging, people complained endlessly until it got nerfed to be about the same difficulty as pre-VR content.

joshisanonymous

BuggeX wrote: »

First of all, you will Need 14kk exp for v14.
The Problem of the Vet is, that after silver/Gold, u will hit v10. With Craglorn v12. if u rly do everything possible with all dungeons etc. At this Point you will have to grind, or repead the qs in carg for v14.
Second Point is, there are not much Options to lvl through the Vets.
Grinding? hmmmm
Questing? yea but just to a certian Point
Dungeons? not enoght exp, expect DSA wich give u 200k
PVP? nahh

I rly like the Vet lvls, i dont like twinking so for me this isnt a Problem, but i understand others well.

I find this hard to believe. I'm close to VR9 at the moment and haven't even hit the second major zone in Gold yet. Are you saying that there will somehow not be enough experience in the next 5-6 zones (however many it is) to gain 5 VRs? This might have been more true when the VR cap was initially raised. I've been playing since the head-start with a couple months off inbetween, so I've spent my first few VRs at the earlier leveling rate and the latter 5 or so at the current rate. I imagine I'd be even further along if I started later.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

I guess im in the other camp. Why do people like VR levels? With champion points now you still progress. So what is the point of VR levels? Just to slow you down before you hit max level? Anyone saying the vr level areas are harder is fooling themselves. And besides even if they removed the vr levels, why would they remove the content? Gaining champion points being a champion for the other factions even makes sense.

Any who, that is my problem with VR levels it is just an artifical road block to slow people down.

Zheg

joshisanonymous wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

First of all, you will Need 14kk exp for v14.
The Problem of the Vet is, that after silver/Gold, u will hit v10. With Craglorn v12. if u rly do everything possible with all dungeons etc. At this Point you will have to grind, or repead the qs in carg for v14.
Second Point is, there are not much Options to lvl through the Vets.
Grinding? hmmmm
Questing? yea but just to a certian Point
Dungeons? not enoght exp, expect DSA wich give u 200k
PVP? nahh

I rly like the Vet lvls, i dont like twinking so for me this isnt a Problem, but i understand others well.

I find this hard to believe. I'm close to VR9 at the moment and haven't even hit the second major zone in Gold yet. Are you saying that there will somehow not be enough experience in the next 5-6 zones (however many it is) to gain 5 VRs? This might have been more true when the VR cap was initially raised. I've been playing since the head-start with a couple months off inbetween, so I've spent my first few VRs at the earlier leveling rate and the latter 5 or so at the current rate. I imagine I'd be even further along if I started later.

Another part of the reason you see so many people arguing back and forth on this topic is because of situations like you just posted. There may be bugs or imbalances created when they shifted to a 1 million xp per level system, but ZOS doesn't talk to us about XP so it's near impossible to gauge. People have wildly varying accounts of where they're at just by doing silver/gold content. You're almost V9 and barely through gold, well, I did full map completion on both silver and gold and finished just before dinging v10 - and this was done with the sub bonus to XP. Sure, we're going to kill slightly different numbers of mobs along the way, but there's really no good way of explaining how that ends up being millions and millions of XP different.

Vaerth

Snoopsy wrote: »

Hi all,

I have been a forum lurker for about a year now, and I have seen countless numbers of threads regarding the outrage of ZOS' veteran ranking system, and quite honestly, I don't get it. Yes, veteran ranks are hard to achieve, but why shouldn't they be? To be the best in MMO's takes time and dedication, not some push-over content you can complete in a week. I am a very casual player and I have only one character veteran rank 1, but I actually enjoy the veteran ranks. To me, that 12 million xp I need seems full of promise and content. (It's kinda why I like Animal Crossing so much.) I like being able to go home and know there's content for me in ESO because of the Veteran Ranks and the Cadwell Silver and Gold. I enjoy doing dungeons, and would gladly run them over and over for XP because that's what the game is. If people don't like Veteran Ranks because it takes too long to get there, you're basically saying I don't want to play the game long enough to get there, and why not? You're playing a game! Now, I understand the argument of wanting to reach end game content faster, but isn't it more rewarding to earn your way there rather than have ZOS nerf it.

Again, I've only ever lurked the forums, so tell me if there's a harsher reality to Veteran Ranks that I'm not seeing.

I am ok with Veteran Ranks as well.

Derra

For me it´s because there is no redundant content. I´ve quested 1 character all the way to v14. I have every zone quest achievement. I´ve done it ALL.
Forcing me to do ALL quests again (and i actually remember most of them) if i don´t want to grind up another character there is no option.

It´s bad design, absolutely twink unfriendly and mindnumbingly boring.

Zheg

@Snoopsy there are two crowds of people that are dissatisfied with veteran ranks.

One contains players working on alts. When you're forced to do the content 4+ times for your alts, it becomes problematic. If there were viable and equal paced leveling options outside of the same quests, ie grinding vet dungeons and/or pvp experience, the story might be different. There is also a subset in this player group that feel pushed to reroll their character due to significant meta and/or racial changes that have happened since launch. My Khajiit sorc no longer has +15% critical dmg racial, nor softcaps to make him versatile, so he's just kind of crappy now. Now that it takes longer to level through the vet ranks than it did for the first 9 months of the game, when players feel obligated to reroll, it leads to crankiness.

The other group is new players working on their first character. If you love the story and that's what you play for, then there aren't many problems. There are a signficant number of people that want to do dungeons/trials and/or pvp though, and you are very much so gimped before you hit v14. Even with vet dungeons - because of the way the helm drops work, most groups running pledges want you to be v12+. While I can get behind "some" arguments saying players should put in the work on the first pass, no one can deny that it used to be far easier for us to level before 1.6, so we're forcing new players to go through more work than we ever had to. And frankly, some find all of those quests boring after a while. The most frequently cited reason I see on forums and outside media for why people are thinking about leaving/left already is because of the vet grind. If it's driving away significant numbers of players, it's a problem.

Without trying to sound like a jerk, you only just hit v1 and haven't even experienced the veteran levels yet, so let's circle back once you've gotten to v14 and see what you say.