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[SUGGESTION] Counter to Kite-Heavy Mechanics
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Sublime✭✭✭✭@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
I don't want to change the skill, I'd just like to see more effective tools tools against it.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 12:06PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases.
Not even close.
Horizontal shadow image teleport range is about 15m. Detection potion range is more than that, and to make things worse, the shade is immobile so you know exactly where to look for the NB after he teleports.
The only case where shadow image will help with getting away from detection potion is when you teleport through a wall(or up a cliff etc.) so that the pursuer cannot follow. But those are very specific environment-dependent cases. More often than not, the fight is in open area lacking these options.
I know that, thank you, and guess what, it's the same with Bolt Escape. Gap closers have a longer range and you don't just get away without playing with the environment.
Gap closers do not prevent bolt escape from functioning the way detection potions prevent invisibility from functioning.1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
Bolt Escape is indeed more useful to create gaps in most circumstances and certainly more reliable than Shadow Image.
However, with clever play you can still create a gap with Shadow Image, if someone manages to close it how is that different from when someone closes the gap to a Sorcerer. You have to use your tool again either way and for the NB that means recast the Shadow Image in a favorable position and create a gap from it, then teleport back.
Apart from that, I still don't see what your actual problem is with Bolt Escape. This is not a Shadow Image vs Bolt Escape thread after all, what is the problem with a class being able to create a gap more easily than another?DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases.
Not even close.
Horizontal shadow image teleport range is about 15m. Detection potion range is more than that, and to make things worse, the shade is immobile so you know exactly where to look for the NB after he teleports.
The only case where shadow image will help with getting away from detection potion is when you teleport through a wall(or up a cliff etc.) so that the pursuer cannot follow. But those are very specific environment-dependent cases. More often than not, the fight is in open area lacking these options.
I know that, thank you, and guess what, it's the same with Bolt Escape. Gap closers have a longer range and you don't just get away without playing with the environment.
Gap closers do not prevent bolt escape from functioning the way detection potions prevent invisibility from functioning.
Uhm... ?
I was talking about Shadow Image, right? Bolt Escape has the same range, you have to play with the environment with either skill.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
Bolt Escape is indeed more useful to create gaps in most circumstances and certainly more reliable than Shadow Image.
However, with clever play you can still create a gap with Shadow Image, if someone manages to close it how is that different from when someone closes the gap to a Sorcerer. You have to use your tool again either way and for the NB that means recast the Shadow Image in a favorable position and create a gap from it, then teleport back.
The problem I see is that in order to use Shadow Image twice you have to create a second Shadow and run away from it again otherwise you will just port stay on top of the shadow. This Comes down to the fact that the Sorcerer can port from any point to any other location on an even level, whereas the Nightblade can only return to a previous visited location. This can obviously be bane or boon, because being able to port back on top of a keep wall can be incredibly useful, but there are just far more options available through Bolt Escape since you do not have to plan in advance.
Apart from that, I still don't see what your actual problem is with Bolt Escape. This is not a Shadow Image vs Bolt Escape thread after all, what is the problem with a class being able to create a gap more easily than another?@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
The problem is that it allows the class to decide when to start or end the fight. Yes the mentioned gap-closers do allow to somewhat work around that, but the option to freely reposition yourself remains untouched, effectively allowing the Sorcerer to choose the environment.EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
Bolt Escape is indeed more useful to create gaps in most circumstances and certainly more reliable than Shadow Image.
However, with clever play you can still create a gap with Shadow Image, if someone manages to close it how is that different from when someone closes the gap to a Sorcerer. You have to use your tool again either way and for the NB that means recast the Shadow Image in a favorable position and create a gap from it, then teleport back.
The problem I see is that in order to use Shadow Image twice you have to create a second Shadow and run away from it again otherwise you will just port stay on top of the shadow. This Comes down to the fact that the Sorcerer can port from any point to any other location on an even level, whereas the Nightblade can only return to a previous visited location. This can obviously be bane or boon, because being able to port back on top of a keep wall can be incredibly useful, but there are just far more options available through Bolt Escape since you do not have to plan in advance.
Apart from that, I still don't see what your actual problem is with Bolt Escape. This is not a Shadow Image vs Bolt Escape thread after all, what is the problem with a class being able to create a gap more easily than another?@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
The problem is that it allows the class to decide when to start or end the fight. Yes the mentioned gap-closers do allow to somewhat work around that, but the option to freely reposition yourself remains untouched, effectively allowing the Sorcerer to choose the environment.
well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
Bolt Escape is indeed more useful to create gaps in most circumstances and certainly more reliable than Shadow Image.
However, with clever play you can still create a gap with Shadow Image, if someone manages to close it how is that different from when someone closes the gap to a Sorcerer. You have to use your tool again either way and for the NB that means recast the Shadow Image in a favorable position and create a gap from it, then teleport back.
The problem I see is that in order to use Shadow Image twice you have to create a second Shadow and run away from it again otherwise you will just port stay on top of the shadow. This Comes down to the fact that the Sorcerer can port from any point to any other location on an even level, whereas the Nightblade can only return to a previous visited location. This can obviously be bane or boon, because being able to port back on top of a keep wall can be incredibly useful, but there are just far more options available through Bolt Escape since you do not have to plan in advance.
Yes I absolutely agree that Bolt Escape is more useful in most situations - like I said previously. For a NB I just wish you didn't have to target an enemy to place Shadow Image, it's a bit clunky to use.
Apart from that, I still don't see what your actual problem is with Bolt Escape. This is not a Shadow Image vs Bolt Escape thread after all, what is the problem with a class being able to create a gap more easily than another?@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.
It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.
ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...
I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.
That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.
Edit:The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.
While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.
An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.
Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.
As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.
Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?
I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?
No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
The difference between Shadow Image and Bolt Escape is that the first one can only be used once but the second one can be used as much as desired. The big thing is that while everybody might be able to have a reactionary tool to Bolt Escape, the Sorcerer is effectively the one dictading the course of the fight, since he has supreme mobility, yes everybody can choose where to go, but the SR's tools of moving are far more effective than any other.
The problem is that it allows the class to decide when to start or end the fight. Yes the mentioned gap-closers do allow to somewhat work around that, but the option to freely reposition yourself remains untouched, effectively allowing the Sorcerer to choose the environment.
I see. Well not only does the same goes for NB to a lesser degree. I don't see a way to take the Sorcerers ability to choose where (or if at all) to fight without taking his ability to kite. It may boil down to the fact I don't think NB is unable to choose wether to fight at all, but just can not as easily choose where the fight takes place as the Sorcerer can.Edited by ToRelax on April 30, 2015 12:41PMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 12:54PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
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Try templar in light armor in pvp in serious fight (serious mean 1v3 at least), for them it will take 15 sec to kill you and since templar dont have escape he forced to use heavy armor. Seems only i tested sorc in heavy armor on pts. Such sorc tougher, can spam encase and deal more aoe damage than my templar in legendary gear. Don't tell me that templar with same gear can hold much more damage, sorc in light armor with escape will survive much longer than templar in heavy armor.
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.
Edited by Cinbri on April 30, 2015 2:15PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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Try templar in light armor in pvp in serious fight (serious mean 1v3 at least), for them it will take 15 sec to kill you and since templar dont have escape he forced to use heavy armor. Seems only i tested sorc in heavy armor on pts. Such sorc tougher, can spam encase and deal more aoe damage than my templar in legendary gear. Don't tell me that templar with same gear can hold much more damage, sorc in light armor with escape will survive much longer than templar in heavy armor.
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.
Templar grp utility 1.
Sorc grp utility 0.
When looking at magica builds. Comparing apples and potatoes...
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ArtG on April 30, 2015 5:49PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's interesting that some players claim on the forums that gap closers don't work, while other players actually use them to good effect in the actual game.
I don't know why some of you can't get gap closers to work. As a Ball-Of-Light sorc, though, I know for a fact that a substantial number of your peers can and do. I get killed by them regularly. Crit Charge and Invasion evidently work differently for those players than they do for these posters.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade3 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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[...]
[...]
Try templar in light armor in pvp in serious fight (serious mean 1v3 at least), for them it will take 15 sec to kill you and since templar dont have escape he forced to use heavy armor. Seems only i tested sorc in heavy armor on pts. Such sorc tougher, can spam encase and deal more aoe damage than my templar in legendary gear. Don't tell me that templar with same gear can hold much more damage, sorc in light armor with escape will survive much longer than templar in heavy armor.
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.
Templar grp utility 1.
Sorc grp utility 0.
When looking at magica builds. Comparing apples and potatoes...
[...]
[...]
not all but one of those 3 definatly - healing ward is absolutly awesome either as a 20k+ heal or a 12k+ shield - as sorcs are the last reliable magica user they are more or less the only one who can provide that reliably (temps are busy healing or doing other stuff) i cant count the number of times i safed a group member with it. sure temps are head over heals ahead in term of utility providence but saying sorcs have none is wrong.
edit:
replenishing barrier + power stone(-15% ulti cost) + pact set (-10% ulti cost) is awesome too...
[Moderator Note: Edited/Removed moderated quotes]Edited by ZOS_ArtG on April 30, 2015 5:54PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Change fiery grip to pull the target regarding blocking. Just to pull it without stun.
Other counter for BE will be if the skill cannot be used when Sorc is rooted.Because I can!0 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Another interesting idea would be to have Bolt Escape Teleport range modified by Snares
it is, we cant bolt escape as quickly with a snare or root active on us, giving more time to be charged.
Also whenever a charge is occuring to a sorc, while on path to the sorc the sorc becomes silenced until the charger reaches the sorc. this is an extremely annoying stealth addition they added to the game in 1.3. the game feels really unresponsive for a bolt escaping sorc getting charged at.
Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos1 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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[...]
[...]
Try templar in light armor in pvp in serious fight (serious mean 1v3 at least), for them it will take 15 sec to kill you and since templar dont have escape he forced to use heavy armor. Seems only i tested sorc in heavy armor on pts. Such sorc tougher, can spam encase and deal more aoe damage than my templar in legendary gear. Don't tell me that templar with same gear can hold much more damage, sorc in light armor with escape will survive much longer than templar in heavy armor.
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.
Templar grp utility 1.
Sorc grp utility 0.
When looking at magica builds. Comparing apples and potatoes...
[...]
[...]
not all but one of those 3 definatly - healing ward is absolutly awesome either as a 20k+ heal or a 12k+ shield - as sorcs are the last reliable magica user they are more or less the only one who can provide that reliably (temps are busy healing or doing other stuff) i cant count the number of times i safed a group member with it. sure temps are head over heals ahead in term of utility providence but saying sorcs have none is wrong.
edit:
replenishing barrier + power stone(-15% ulti cost) + pact set (-10% ulti cost) is awesome too...
At one point i specifically stated that i was talking about sorcerer class abilities.
Also magica NBs are on par or do a better job than sorcs in terms of healing ward.
[Moderator Note: Edited/Removed moderated quotes]Edited by ZOS_ArtG on April 30, 2015 5:54PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.
While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 4:24PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.
While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape. Ap
no but as a templar you can use your spear charge gap closer to keep up with a sorc, especially now that they fixed the global cooldown behind it.
you can couple a speed buff and mist form and you actually go faster then bolt escape, or you can find a rock to mist form around or roll around, depending you if your magicka or stam specced and troll the hell out of the sorc because he will barely be able to hit you because of line of sight. then when you recover enough fight. ive seen templars/dk's do this and troll entire zergs and kill people in the process.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos0 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.
While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape. Ap
no but as a templar you can use your spear charge gap closer to keep up with a sorc, especially now that they fixed the global cooldown behind it.
you can couple a speed buff and mist form and you actually go faster then bolt escape, or you can find a rock to mist form around or roll around, depending you if your magicka or stam specced and troll the hell out of the sorc because he will barely be able to hit you because of line of sight. then when you recover enough fight. ive seen templars/dk's do this and troll entire zergs and kill people in the process.
The added CC-immunity is certainly useful, but the speed bonuses no longer stack since both skills give the Major Expedition Bonus, and if they do it's a bug. Apart from that it's not about catching up, it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them, while mobility-heavy classes can easily kite them, selecting locations that favour their playstyle.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 4:32PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.
While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape. Ap
no but as a templar you can use your spear charge gap closer to keep up with a sorc, especially now that they fixed the global cooldown behind it.
you can couple a speed buff and mist form and you actually go faster then bolt escape, or you can find a rock to mist form around or roll around, depending you if your magicka or stam specced and troll the hell out of the sorc because he will barely be able to hit you because of line of sight. then when you recover enough fight. ive seen templars/dk's do this and troll entire zergs and kill people in the process.
The added CC-immunity is certainly useful but the speed bonuses no longer stack since both skills give the Major Expedition Bonus, and if they do it's a bug. Apart from that it's not about catching up it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them while mobility-heavy classes can easily kite them selecting locations that favour their playstyle.
Well if you word it that way: Just don´t follow mobile classes. They either fight you where you are on your terms or they don´t fight you?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
I know it's hard to find, but that's what this thread is here for.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:
Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.
The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.
I also added this to OT so that new participants don't have to read through the whole thread and adjusted the title.
templars and dk's can become vampires and kite with mist form, ive seen it done, as dk's and templars use it all the time when we are kiting zergs to a position to own the hell out of them.
While this certainly fits as a workaround, they will never be able to chase down or escape from Bolt Escape. Ap
no but as a templar you can use your spear charge gap closer to keep up with a sorc, especially now that they fixed the global cooldown behind it.
you can couple a speed buff and mist form and you actually go faster then bolt escape, or you can find a rock to mist form around or roll around, depending you if your magicka or stam specced and troll the hell out of the sorc because he will barely be able to hit you because of line of sight. then when you recover enough fight. ive seen templars/dk's do this and troll entire zergs and kill people in the process.
The added CC-immunity is certainly useful but the speed bonuses no longer stack since both skills give the Major Expedition Bonus, and if they do it's a bug. Apart from that it's not about catching up it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them while mobility-heavy classes can easily kite them selecting locations that favour their playstyle.
Well if you word it that way: Just don´t follow mobile classes. They either fight you where you are on your terms or they don´t fight you?
That's exactly the point, mobile classes decide if there's a fight or not. If they don't want to fight they run away, if they want to fight they fight, immobile classes don't have the freedom to make this desicion. If a mobile class wants to fight them they have to fight.
While mobility is certainly an important part of those kits, they also give them the unique opportunity to choose if the want to take a fight or not.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 4:41PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭...it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them
So, you want to eliminate the mobility advantage that some classes have so tanks can keep them in range. May I presume you also want to eliminate the damage mitigation and healing advantages that tanky classes possess?
Then, everyone can stand rooted in one spot punching each other in the mouth. Balance.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade1 -
Sublime✭✭✭✭...it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them
So, you want to eliminate the mobility advantage that some classes have so tanks can keep them in range. May I presume you also want to eliminate the damage mitigation and healing advantages that tanky classes possess?
Then, everyone can stand rooted in one spot punching each other in the mouth. Balance.
Not eliminated but provide a counter that at least gives immobile classes a shot at deciding where the fights happen.Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 6:08PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0 -
cschwingeb14_ESO✭✭✭✭Invasion is a perfectly acceptable counter to BE. It long-stuns and does medium damage. If you want to wtf-pwn with high damage 2h critical charge/WB, then you have to accept less utility.
Snares/roots also are a partial counter. They slow everyone down, even a bolting sorcs. A sorcs not running and just bolting moves slower than a running and bolting sorcs.
All weapons have a snare option0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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Try templar in light armor in pvp in serious fight (serious mean 1v3 at least), for them it will take 15 sec to kill you and since templar dont have escape he forced to use heavy armor. Seems only i tested sorc in heavy armor on pts. Such sorc tougher, can spam encase and deal more aoe damage than my templar in legendary gear. Don't tell me that templar with same gear can hold much more damage, sorc in light armor with escape will survive much longer than templar in heavy armor.
I must have overread that somewhere but I would really like to see that change as well.well thats what it is ment for, templar and especially dks have the toolset to tank through their opponents while NB and sorc are supposed to break from a fight. if you take that away from them youll have to take the ability of templars and dks to deny dmg(reflect, eclipse etc) and heal through delivered dmg (GDB, rally, BOL etc).
Certainly, but what I'd like to see is an tool for non-mobile builds to determine the location for the fight, right now they always have to chase if the want to get a kill on a squishy.
What you want is simply not possible. Sorcerers defensive capabilities are 50% class shield 50% mobility. If you take the mobility away you break the class. Builds that don´t rely on mobility have some other form of in combat heal/mitigation/reflect.
Temp and DK have the ability to take fights head on (although that playstyle suffered the most in 1.6 admittedly) - NBs do so to a lesser extend but have means to disengage. Sorcs can´t fight more than 1 player at a time (unless they´re scrubs) but have the ability of free movement.
Templar grp utility 1.
Sorc grp utility 0.
When looking at magica builds. Comparing apples and potatoes...
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not all but one of those 3 definatly - healing ward is absolutly awesome either as a 20k+ heal or a 12k+ shield - as sorcs are the last reliable magica user they are more or less the only one who can provide that reliably (temps are busy healing or doing other stuff) i cant count the number of times i safed a group member with it. sure temps are head over heals ahead in term of utility providence but saying sorcs have none is wrong.
edit:
replenishing barrier + power stone(-15% ulti cost) + pact set (-10% ulti cost) is awesome too...
At one point i specifically stated that i was talking about sorcerer class abilities.
Also magica NBs are on par or do a better job than sorcs in terms of healing ward.
[Moderator Note: Edited/Removed moderated quotes]
not disagreeing here but not beeing the best option doesent mean not being an option at all....it's about giving classes with less mobility an option to direct where the fight will happen, because right now they can only charge after them
So, you want to eliminate the mobility advantage that some classes have so tanks can keep them in range. May I presume you also want to eliminate the damage mitigation and healing advantages that tanky classes possess?
Then, everyone can stand rooted in one spot punching each other in the mouth. Balance.
Not eliminated but provide a counter that at least gives immobile classes a shot at deciding where the fights happen.
thats allready existing its called map knowledge.
fought a dk who kited me into a position where i could decide between fighting him in a 2m² location or beeing unable to hit him at all.Edited by Tankqull on April 30, 2015 6:53PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Laerwen✭✭✭Contrary to popular belief, bolt escape and it's morphs only teleport you 4 meters, or the radius of lightning splash (extremely small). Couple this with the global cooldowns and mini stuns from gap closers, and you can ALWAYS catch a sorc after he has entered gap closing range, IF you really want to.
The only time you cannot catch a sorc is when he never lets you get in gap closing range. Surprisingly, you cannot catch any other class that never lets you get into gap closing range either.
ITT noobs chased a sorc, got wrecked, then cried about it.
What to take away from this? Nuthug your group more, noob.
Edited by Laerwen on April 30, 2015 7:05PM1 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭the tool tip on bolt escape doesnt actually say how far the teleport is, but its defenitely shorter then charges in the game.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
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Sublime✭✭✭✭If you try it out you see that with one use of Bolt Escape you can pretty exactly cross one Grand Healing, which has a radius of 8m, which result to a total of 16m range. The 4m radius in the TT refers to the AOE of the stun (and damage for Streak).thats allready existing its called map knowledge.
fought a dk who kited me into a position where i could decide between fighting him in a 2m² location or beeing unable to hit him at all.
Out of curiosity, how did the DK kite you?
Edited by Sublime on April 30, 2015 8:48PMEU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)0