[SUGGESTION] Counter to Kite-Heavy Mechanics

Sublime

The big problem with Bolt Escape is that there is currently no way to negate it's effect. Yes you can prevent somebody from using it through a stun but after CC-break the Sorcerer has enough time to get out because of the immunity.

Suggested Changes to Fiery Grip and all of its Morphs:

• ignore block
• ignore the Sorcerers ball of the skill Ball of Lightning
• no longer applies CC-immunity

Pros:

• There is now a counter to Bolt Escape and all of its Morphs.
• Fiery Grip is now worth using, also against other classes
• Enables single players to pick out players from bombsquads, isolating them from their Group

Cons:

• This would make Fiery Grip fairly strong, leaving roll dodge as the only counter, actually buffing Stamina build over Magicka ones.
• Bombsquads would be able to pull any enemy into their AOE, killing them almost instantly.

The question concerning bombsquads will be, will the bombsquad be torn apart before it can pull enemies into it's AOE.

Thoughts?

[EDIT]

My opinion changed on the matter since the start of the thread so I'm quickly going to write down my current view on the topic:

Right now Bolt Escape and similar mobility mechanics allow damage oriented builds to decide the location where a fight takes place. While tanky players can use gap-closers to catch up they do not have any reliable tool to force a glass-cannon into their domain.

The suggested changes would work against Sorcerers but the Retreating+Bow+RollDodge combo would remain untouched, this unfortunately renders the original suggestion useless. However, I still think Fiery Grip is the type of skill I'm looking for, the set of changes would have to be altered to match the new goal. Apart from that the questioned skill is a part of the DK's kit, meaning Templars are left as the only class that doesn't have a tool to either kite or pull.

Sharee

As much as i dislike bolt escape... being forcibly moved is a form of hard CC, and chainable hard CC that you have no way to defend yourself from is, well...

I think a better counter would be giving inferno a negate-like effect that would only affect bolt escape. Kinda like magelight prevents nightblade from disappearing, inferno would keep a sorc from bolting.

Dositheus

Or hell... a mage ability (or mage guild even) based off lightning. Something like Negative Charge Field, an aura around the sorc that prevents anyone within a 20 radius of using bolt escape OR cloak, but increases lightning damage to the sorc while it is active. Maybe a toggle. They could act like the inductors or whatever from starwars. :P And... they couldn't bolt escape with it active either.

Sacadon

Ambush can stay up with BE till either the NB or sorc has to regen.

Dositheus

Sacadon wrote: »

Ambush can stay up with BE till either the NB or sorc has to regen.

I have trouble with ambush since it has the .4 second wind up. Generally unless the sorc is slow on the draw, they can escape me. I did better with crit rush against it, but I am not a huge fan of crit rush in general.

Sharee

Sacadon wrote: »

Ambush can stay up with BE till either the NB or sorc has to regen.

Only if the bolter bolts away in a straight line.

If the sorc bolts, you ambush, he faces you, bolts again, then you have to rotate your camera 180 degrees before being able to hit the ambush butto again. He on the other hand can just hammer the bolt button as fast as he can. More often than not, byt the time you get him lined up for a second ambush, he has bolted a second time and is out of range.

Jakeol

Mountain Dew and Nutella Vortex: Sucks in all sorcs within a 3 mile radius, sorcs then gain the balls of steel buff, forcing them to fight in that location to the death. Winner gets to bolt escape away.

Sublime

Sacadon wrote: »

Ambush can stay up with BE till either the NB or sorc has to regen.

The problem here is, it still allows the Sorcerer to go where he pleases and does not actually negate the effect of Bolt Escape. Yes it allows you to keep up with the enemy, it's not a hard counter but rather a workaround.

Sharee wrote: »

As much as i dislike bolt escape... being forcibly moved is a form of hard CC, and chainable hard CC that you have no way to defend yourself from is, well...

While you can still use roll dodge to avoid the chains, I agree that this would not be that easy to pull off reliably. The main difference is that instead of, as in most other cases, being CCd for several seconds the CC-immunity gets applied at the exchange of a displacement effect. This displacement can certainly be fatal but that's only rarely the case.

Tankqull

Sharee wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Ambush can stay up with BE till either the NB or sorc has to regen.

Only if the bolter bolts away in a straight line.

If the sorc bolts, you ambush, he faces you, bolts again, then you have to rotate your camera 180 degrees before being able to hit the ambush butto again. He on the other hand can just hammer the bolt button as fast as he can. More often than not, byt the time you get him lined up for a second ambush, he has bolted a second time and is out of range.

well thats the problem of chosing a casted gap closer, you can easily chose one of the instant options. beside that being awere of the facing direction of the sorc clearly indicates the direction of his next BE reducing your reaction time significantly.

Derra

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.

Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

olsborg

There are counters, its called gap closers. Happens all the time that a gap closer keeps up with you, in the end you have to stop and kill him before you can continue fleeing the zerg. ^^

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.

Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

^This. And it actually costs less resources for a stamina build.

Xsorus

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.

Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

^This. And it actually costs less resources for a stamina build.

No it doesn't

Unless you're running maybe Well Fitted, but you'll lack Nirnhoned and get *** by any sorc you chase after.

Xsorus

olsborg wrote: »

There are counters, its called gap closers. Happens all the time that a gap closer keeps up with you, in the end you have to stop and kill him before you can continue fleeing the zerg. ^^

Gap Closers aren't a counter, As someone already stated..The second you charge to a Sorc and get stunned, you'll lose him

Sublime

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

Cody

use gap closers.

oh and fiery chain is already strong, most DKs just prefer critical rush or shield bash.

Xsorus

Another interesting idea would be to have Bolt Escape Teleport range modified by Snares

Tankqull

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.

Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

1. what does SR mean?
2. any class fighting 50m away from a safespot can escape without anyone beeing able to stop him or her to reach it.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

There are counters, its called gap closers. Happens all the time that a gap closer keeps up with you, in the end you have to stop and kill him before you can continue fleeing the zerg. ^^

Gap Closers aren't a counter, As someone already stated..The second you charge to a Sorc and get stunned, you'll lose him

[...]

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

Cloak in itself is way more powerful than teleport when used correctly (specially in combination with other skills - shadow image i´m looking at you). Also Cloak offers further benefits with dispell and magic projectile immunity (4 projectiles will be forced miss after cloaking).

Also if you want to implement a counter to teleport you´d have to make it available to every class not just one.

Last - a counter would be the player not able to teleport NOT a forced reposition of a player. I´m sure this could be implemented in some way but i don´t think it should. There are many skills without a widely available hardcounter and imho hardcounters are always a bad way to balance.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Tankqull

Xsorus wrote: »

Another interesting idea would be to have Bolt Escape Teleport range modified by Snares

sure make charge range reduced by hight differences and snares too...

Sublime

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade. (I also use TP for Templar, simply because i'm sometimes too lazy to write the whole name)

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

@Derra , what would you think of the suggestion if there were no bombsquads in this game?

Tankqull

Sublime wrote: »

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...

ToRelax

Xsorus wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

There are counters, its called gap closers. Happens all the time that a gap closer keeps up with you, in the end you have to stop and kill him before you can continue fleeing the zerg. ^^

Gap Closers aren't a counter, As someone already stated..The second you charge to a Sorc and get stunned, you'll lose him

I am pretty sure since you can not reduce the cost of Bolt Escape that much, but I'll give you that, leads to nothing.

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?

Sublime

Tankqull wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...

I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.

LtCrunch

Bolt escape has been nerfed a few times already. Leave it be for Christ's sake. If you keep getting ZOS to nerf everything you don't like you're going to help ruin all of the good abilities that make the classes unique and effective in their own ways.

P.S. a charge has longer range than bolt escape(22m vs 15). Use them and you can keep up with a Sorcerer pretty easily.

Sublime

ToRelax wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?

I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?

Tankqull

Sublime wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...

I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.

so then what is my counter to rolling, simply walking/sprinting away, charging environment etc. their is non but DKs fiery grip (wich should be changed to dk port anyway)

ToRelax

Sublime wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...

I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.

That seriously doesn't make much sense.
If it's about preventing someone from creating a gap, then Shadow Image would be overpowered as well. Seriously, that's the whole point of kiting. Closing the gap is exactly what you do against someone opening one. I am really curious what's your actual problem with that.

Edit:

Sublime wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The problem with bolt escape is that ppl don´t want to dedicate as much resources to following as the sorc does to escaping. Ppl that utilize bowspeed + speedbuff + sprint can very well keep up with a bolting sorc.
Charges are terrain dependant when following.Edit on topic: The suggestion is completely terrible. I can already see ppl pulling everyone into their zerg aoe. No thanks.

While gap-closers allow non-sorcs to catch up they don't actually negate the effect of the skill, i.e. the SR can go where he pleases.

An example:
A SR is fighting 50m in front of an allied ressource, should he get into trouble he can port to safety with nothing being able to stop him. The enemy can follow up through the mentioned charges but they cannot actually prevent him from going there.

Now, it could be said that this is either good positioning or map awareness, I'd prefer if there were some counterplay available.

As a comparison:
The effect of NB cloak can be countered by detection pots, or any form of AOE damage, yes it can be difficult to find the caster, but it actually reveals him negating the original skill.

Cloak makes you invisible, forces incoming attacks to miss and purges DoTs. Detection Portion etc. will make the NB visible.
To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases. I really don't see the problem here, roll dodger goes where he pleases, even a sap tank can move in the directio he wants without being puled back if he has enough stamina.
What's the argument?

I used the cloak as an example for a counter, to try to point out why a gapcloser is no counter to Bolt Escape. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you mean that everybody has a disengage or am I mistaking you?

No, you basically said your problem was that you couldn't hinder a Sorc from going where he wants to, but that goes for everyone.
I also pointed out why Cloak is NOT being completely shut down by anything. It still purges and makes incoming attacks miss, it's still powerful.

Sharee

ToRelax wrote: »

To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases.

Not even close.

Horizontal shadow image teleport range is about 15m. Detection potion range is more than that, and to make things worse, the shade is immobile so you know exactly where to look for the NB after he teleports.

The only case where shadow image will help with getting away from detection potion is when you teleport through a wall(or up a cliff etc.) so that the pursuer cannot follow. But those are very specific environment-dependent cases. More often than not, the fight is in open area lacking these options.

Sublime

Tankqull wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@Tankqull SR is my shortform for Sorcerer, like NB for Nighblade.

It's not about the distance, it's about the fact that gap-closers don't negate the teleport effect of Bolt Escape.

ah thx.
well ambush/shield charge stuns me if the ambush/shield charge lands while still in the "air" i´m falling out of the sky on that position like a dead pigeon. (the time frame is extreamly small but it does look funny) so this point is definatly not true. so if you are not using a gapcloser with a cc component why should you directly counter the gap creation of BE?
if someone is running away from me i cant counter that without using cc aswell...

I never had anybody Interrupt my Bolt Escape not did i ever see it, yes I might get stunned at the end but that's not what I'm trying to say. It's not about closing the gap its about preventing the Sorcerer from creating a gap or alternatively revert the gap created by pulling the SR back to the original position.

so then what is my counter to rolling, simply walking/sprinting away, charging environment etc. their is non but DKs fiery grip (wich should be changed to dk port anyway)

Assuming rolling = roll dodge

The big difference is all the movements mentioned are available to everybody, meaning you can simply walk after them. Roll Dodging might be a bit more problematic (as shown by the pls nerf threads), but it only provides a 100% dodge chance against projectiles instead of an additional speed buff (bow is an exception ofc).

ToRelax

Sharee wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

To get out of range the NB can try using Shadow Image, then Cloak, and... go where he pleases.

Not even close.

Horizontal shadow image teleport range is about 15m. Detection potion range is more than that, and to make things worse, the shade is immobile so you know exactly where to look for the NB after he teleports.

The only case where shadow image will help with getting away from detection potion is when you teleport through a wall(or up a cliff etc.) so that the pursuer cannot follow. But those are very specific environment-dependent cases. More often than not, the fight is in open area lacking these options.

I know that, thank you, and guess what, it's the same with Bolt Escape. Gap closers have a longer range and you don't just get away without playing with the environment.