Do you feel ESO lacks class variety for longevity?

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

A skill system originally hailed for its customization options doesn't appear to be truly that grand, when it comes to Elder Scrolls Online. In today's MMORPG environment min/maxxers are king. The significant majority of players have already calculated all the information, discovered the most capable (or efficient) builds in the game. Each build has a role or niche it excels in. Eventually players get bored of a role or niche they've been performing in and will desire to make a new character. For me personally, this is the case. But, as I sit here at the character select screen I am indecisive and even discouraged. None of the classes appeal to me because I already know what builds work later on and which ones are sub-par.

Do you agree? If so, why?
If not, explain why.

PKMN12

THANK YOU, someone else who actually agrees with this point.

What they SHOULD have done is take the classes from one of hte games, probably Arena or Morrowind. then make solid, closed, classes based on each of them with their own abilties and some Role, armor and weapon restrictions.

For example, they could have made the Sorcerer (which in TES lore is a heavily armored magical battery than can absorb magic) a MAgicka DPS or tank class, while the Mage was a DPS class with some crowd control, while the Battle mage was a Mele/magicka DPS or tank or something.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

They need a class with cold damage as part of its inherent class abilities, I think everyone will agree with the lack of cold damage being present in the game. That's just the tip of the iceberg (pun intended), but, I feel this needs to be addressed.

sagitter

I'd like to see new classes and general skills

Betahkiin

The excell spreadsheets, the scientific calculators, performance and statics graphs, Guides about how to make the best character for, obsessive race to be the king of the min/max and take a character like a database for calculations is something that well killing all the games that were created in the last decade.

The adventure alone or with friends, discover secret areas and read the texts of missions in detail and talk about it, make a big dip in the fantasy world, all those things nourish and accompany the selection of a class which plays a role in the adventure, a role in history and choose one no matter what, if you respect the game and its traditions will surely be the perfect one.

Remember, is just my oppinion and this do not can hurt you, do not be affraid to let remain in the topic.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Betahkiin wrote: »

The excell spreadsheets, the scientific calculators, performance and statics graphs, Guides about how to make the best character for, obsessive race to be the king of the min/max and take a character like a database for calculations is something that well killing all the games that were created in the last decade.

The adventure alone or with friends, discover secret areas and read the texts of missions in detail and talk about it, make a big dip in the fantasy world, all those things nourish and accompany the selection of a class which plays a role in the adventure, a role in history and choose one no matter what, if you respect the game and its traditions will surely be the perfect one.

Remember, is just my oppinion and this do not can hurt you, do not be affraid to let remain in the topic.

I actually agree with you. However, I also am very competitive and enjoy utilizing my character to its full potential. So its a double-edged sword for me.

newtinmpls

I miss the principles of the Morrowind Class system. It gave you a starting boost in a few skills, and something akin to an XP-along-the-way boost, but it was a beginning, not a limitation.

I enjoy interacting with the world and playing and adventuring with a few friends. I'm glad I can do that here - and that is more enjoyable to me than "optimizing" or "maxing" my class.

When I'm at character selection it's fun; I get a whole new way/person/viewpoint to explore the world from.

Ser Lobo

Developers try to hide the mechanics of the game by not releasing info, and they get burned by the min-max crowd. ZOS tried this early on by limiting the API, and players rioted. It's killing modern gaming, but there is a subset of players that refuse to do without it.

Believe it or not, it's also killing dungeons and dragons on paper. So many players find ways to create broken mechanics that it makes the system inept.


I disagree with class-based gaming, though. I like EvE Online. I loved SWG pre-NGE. I love games which give you options and variety. I'd prefer ESO if it lacked any classes whatsoever, and probably would have skipped it if it went all the way back to Arena's style.

But the downside of all this freedom, is that: a) the min-max crowd and their followers still only play with a few builds; and b) the hand-holding gamers complain it's too complex.



ESO could use a variety of different damage types and tanking types. Cold damage and fire damage, etc. That's one bit of complexity I miss from other MMO's.

But as far as limiting classes to roles, I would point out that it doesn't stop min-maxers or 'flavor of the month' builds at all. Everybody knows what is the best class this month in WoW, and that's all you'll see in most high-level instances.

Worthy problems, Op. But your solution wouldn't address them, in my opinion.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Developers try to hide the mechanics of the game by not releasing info, and they get burned by the min-max crowd. ZOS tried this early on by limiting the API, and players rioted. It's killing modern gaming, but there is a subset of players that refuse to do without it.

Believe it or not, it's also killing dungeons and dragons on paper. So many players find ways to create broken mechanics that it makes the system inept.


I disagree with class-based gaming, though. I like EvE Online. I loved SWG pre-NGE. I love games which give you options and variety. I'd prefer ESO if it lacked any classes whatsoever, and probably would have skipped it if it went all the way back to Arena's style.

But the downside of all this freedom, is that: a) the min-max crowd and their followers still only play with a few builds; and b) the hand-holding gamers complain it's too complex.



ESO could use a variety of different damage types and tanking types. Cold damage and fire damage, etc. That's one bit of complexity I miss from other MMO's.

But as far as limiting classes to roles, I would point out that it doesn't stop min-maxers or 'flavor of the month' builds at all. Everybody knows what is the best class this month in WoW, and that's all you'll see in most high-level instances.

Worthy problems, Op. But your solution wouldn't address them, in my opinion.

I frequent MMO Think Tanks, and this is far from my solution. I'm merely making an observation and suggestion while working within the direction that Zenimax has chosen.

Psychobunni

As to the number of classes yes.

However, I sometimes think there are simply too many choices once you have chosen the class itself. I (just me personally) would rather have 8-10-w/e classes to choose from, but each niche designed as far as weapon/armor/fight style to match the class.

For instance, an archer class, with bow/dps designed abilities to match it. Yes, any class can use a bow, do it well is a different matter.....for examples sake.

I have an empty slot myself from having deleted one a week ago, an am in same boat, none of the 4 classes appeal to me at this stage from a starting standpoint.

Ser Lobo

I think the solution to the current class design is three-fold.

Step 1) Remove all numeric indicators of how much damage a player is doing or taking, so that it's all guesswork. Take away the min-maxers hard data entirely, especially from the API, and then announce that your overhauling the system completely. Then it's all 'impressions' and 'feels like' instead of raw information.

Step 2) Add 'variety' animations to weapon styles, etc. Same ability and damage, but different animations to free up the monotony. The repetitiveness of most gaming experiences is what really hangs on people, and that's largely from the animation department.

Step 3) Add more flavorful guild features and powers, including new guilds like Dark Brotherhood, to help players pick from a broader subset.



The other option, of attempting to convert this to a more standardized, class-based MMO? I'm against that, personally. There are games that were built from the ground up to do that, and will always do it better than giving ESO the New Game Enhancement of this era.

Betahkiin

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Betahkiin wrote: »

The excell spreadsheets, the scientific calculators, performance and statics graphs, Guides about how to make the best character for, obsessive race to be the king of the min/max and take a character like a database for calculations is something that well killing all the games that were created in the last decade.

The adventure alone or with friends, discover secret areas and read the texts of missions in detail and talk about it, make a big dip in the fantasy world, all those things nourish and accompany the selection of a class which plays a role in the adventure, a role in history and choose one no matter what, if you respect the game and its traditions will surely be the perfect one.

Remember, is just my oppinion and this do not can hurt you, do not be affraid to let remain in the topic.

I actually agree with you. However, I also am very competitive and enjoy utilizing my character to its full potential. So its a double-edged sword for me.

I understand.

You are in a difficult situation.

People who engage in it are often their own worst enemies, wishes to be the best attempt against diversity and in some cases even the relaxed fun.

Such users often leave out any game content that is not functional to their desire to excel, thus only dedicated to one race, class, equipment, specific rotation and bonuses, and make changes only if in some patch some of their choise take a nerf, then automatically migrate to the new OP selection.

This need to highlight in performance ends up dictating enjoy, how and when to do it. The only option to be free when you choosing is to focus on enjoying the various contents on a participatory / cooperative manner.

Otherwise, only the guides and hours of testing and calculations will be able to advise you what decisions to make.

Personally I try to stay as far away as possible from that path, but everyone is free to choose where to move.

Good luck!

Darkonflare15

It is perfectly fine the way it is now. Classes are nothing but skeletons. These are the passives you have access to, your unique class skills, and utility. Now you use all the skill lines to make your own unique class. World, weapon, guild, racial, and armor skills to help build your own class. Right now we do not need another class because classes are beginning to lose their identities. If they make a new one then it will become another mess just like the classes we have now.

Betahkiin

No matter how many more classes they add, min / max users always going to go through the OP.

This is given by the lack of balance, but the problem is that the balance leads to ruin every game in where you try to impose.

For that there is roles within a company, so that each deal and stand on something specific and these qualities can not always deal as equals.

Problems like these carried games to the point of ruin where each class makes practically all equal and no major differences exist.

The sense of belonging is lost, specialization vanishes and games become a world of clones with different looks.

A great ally of this enemy is the PvP.

PvP + look for Balance = Role destroyed.

If in a video game like a MMORPG role is broken, there is only left an MMO.

In an MMO the only factor present is the massive effect, no distinctions present, it becomes tedious, boring and then people start to complain.

There are many examples of video games completely ruined by mixing PvP + Looking for Balance with PvE.

And it is this day I still do not understand because the developers can not think separate progressions and functionalities of each aspect giving them independence of each other.

Ser Lobo

Betahkiin wrote: »

No matter how many more classes they add, min / max users always going to go through the OP.

This is given by the lack of balance, but the problem is that the balance leads to ruin every game in where you try to impose.

For that there is roles within a company, so that each deal and stand on something specific and these qualities can not always deal as equals.

Problems like these carried games to the point of ruin where each class makes practically all equal and no major differences exist.

The sense of belonging is lost, specialization vanishes and games become a world of clones with different looks.

A great ally of this enemy is the PvP.

PvP + look for Balance = Role destroyed.

If in a video game like a MMORPG role is broken, there is only left an MMO.

In an MMO the only factor present is the massive effect, no distinctions present, it becomes tedious, boring and then people start to complain.

There are many examples of video games completely ruined by mixing PvP + Looking for Balance with PvE.

And it is this day I still do not understand because the developers can not think separate progressions and functionalities of each aspect giving them independence of each other.

While I agree that the push from players for 'balance' is a major fault in modern gaming, as it allows for no class diversity in the end as the only balance is when everybody has exactly the same things ...

I disagree, or at the very least feel like you were one-sided, on your attaching PvP as the great ally of evil. As I've experienced and had to point out multiple times, group PvErs call for balance fixes just as much as anybody else.

When a class is not needed for a trial or raid because they can't compete with sorcerers on damage output or sustainability, you are damn right a PvEr' si going to go to the forums and call for balance.

Let us not fall into the old act of blaming some other gametype that we personally don't care about for all the evils that hit us, conveniently ignoring all the evidence that both groups are equally to blame. As a Cancer and a born mediator, I feel the devs of life could provide us with just a little more balance in these debates.

golfer.dub17_ESO

I feel like the game lacks variety because the system itself is inherently biased against stamina.

Even with morphs, great...Magicka builds still get like 12 class skills exclusive to themselves.

What can a 2hand user do except spam wrecking blow?
What can a dual wield user do except spam rapid strikes?

Meanwhile magic can summon pets, knock people around, give yourself shields, all sorts of things.

Yes, there is a disparity in power, but the options available to each aren't even comparable.

LtCrunch

Spellcrafting. That is all.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Step 1) Remove all numeric indicators of how much damage a player is doing or taking, so that it's all guesswork. Take away the min-maxers hard data entirely, especially from the API, and then announce that your overhauling the system completely. Then it's all 'impressions' and 'feels like' instead of raw information.

This wouldn't do more than slow them down. You could still make out how much relative DPS you were doing by measuring the time it takes you to kill a certain mob, and people would find ways to extract information from counting health bar pixels in a captured stream of the fight. You simply can't quench the bean counters' desire to count beans.

MyNegation

as other people said in different threads: removing skill damage scaling from magica/stamina will make the builds more spreaded... and will reduce the overall damage.

Bodycounter

People have to understand, that it's their own fault for ruining games. Everyone wants to be special while being the same in terms of balance, but better. And this is contradicting. Then there are min/maxers and there will always be. And their will be the masses of apes just following the min/maxers and copying everything they do.

Eso has a high variety of options, more than any other game (MMO that is) i know. Classes are just small (in comparison to other game, where the class decides everything) limitations to your end game, but they don't necessarily decide what you are. The first attempt of many communities to "improve" a game: Give us more. More stats, more abilities, more classes, more! You saw what that let to in WoW. They were forced to delete many things again, because their whole balancing was bloated, everyone could to everything just with another name.

More won't be a solution and min/maxers will still find a meta, that's fotm. This game doesn't lack variety, it lacks people with an open mind, that are willing to try something. Better copy better players and then complain, that there are no options.

eliisra

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

I feel like the game lacks variety because the system itself is inherently biased against stamina.

Even with morphs, great...Magicka builds still get like 12 class skills exclusive to themselves.

What can a 2hand user do except spam wrecking blow?
What can a dual wield user do except spam rapid strikes?

Meanwhile magic can summon pets, knock people around, give yourself shields, all sorts of things.

Yes, there is a disparity in power, but the options available to each aren't even comparable.

You also have 75-80% of all endgame dps'ers and PvP'ers using stamina builds now. Not because they necessarily want to but due to min/max and stam being superior in 1.6.5. Only magicka builds I still encounter frequently in PvP are sorcerers and healers.

So majority of those exclusive class skills and many other lines aren't being used in the first place, because they scale from a penalized recourse that's not fotm. It's such a waste when it comes to diversity and bores me to death.

While I'm sure magicka will get some buffs next major update June/July, it's not going to solve this issue. Stamina builds will still be spamming a one skill rotation until dying out of boredom, since most abilities are tied to a specific weapon. DW doesn't have good single target dps while 2-Hander lacks AoE. This game would be a lot more fun if the design of skill trees had less restrictions and more options.

Tandor

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

It is perfectly fine the way it is now. Classes are nothing but skeletons. These are the passives you have access to, your unique class skills, and utility. Now you use all the skill lines to make your own unique class. World, weapon, guild, racial, and armor skills to help build your own class. Right now we do not need another class because classes are beginning to lose their identities. If they make a new one then it will become another mess just like the classes we have now.

This.

I have two nightblades, for example. One is an archer, the other an assassin.

Are they as "efficient" as each other, or as "efficient" as a FOTM build templar, dragonknight or sorcerer? Probably not, but why should that bother me? If the OP is claiming that min-maxers represent a significant majority of gamers, as he appears to be saying, then I think he's wrong. Those who do follow the "optimum" build may feel a sense of achievement at being the best in this or that, but they deny themselves so much simple enjoyment of what the game offers by rejecting large parts of it.

newtinmpls

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

I feel like the game lacks variety because the system itself is inherently biased against stamina.

Even with morphs, great...Magicka builds still get like 12 class skills exclusive to themselves.

What can a 2hand user do except spam wrecking blow?
What can a dual wield user do except spam rapid strikes?

I boggle at the idea of the above as serious questions.

I suppose that if someone were an OCD min/maxer and beleived that "spamming wrecking blow" was the "best" thing to do with 2h, then such a person might ask that question.

Luckily, that's not how I play.

I have two different orc/sorc/tank characters whose primary weapon is 2h. One uses Maul, the other uses 2h sword, as some of the passives are slightly different. I enjoy the differences.

Rune_Relic

For a start....
they need to set cost/dps and lock animation time to dps and lose animation cancelling.

That way it really doesnt matter what dps skill you use... so min maxing is pointless and all skills become viable.
You then choose skill based on time window.
A long attack would be good from stealth but leave you vulnerable to stuns in open play.
A short attack would do lower damage but leave you ready to adapt instead of an over committed sitting duck.
Risk vs Reward

Seth_Black

Not a problem in my case really.
Running one and only character - Khajiit Nightblade
First I started with leveling up all class skills abilities and morphs,
all weapon skills and morphs, all armor skills, every guild skill etc.
It was fun like hell, since my way of doing it was pretty simple and straight forward:
leveling up Dual Wield & Bow = only skills from that tree landed on my bar.
I'm telling you it was challenging sometimes ...but still really a lot of fun while doing it.
Not when it's all finished and I can play in Pick & Choose system I never get really bored.
Just doing usual things... pledges, trials, completing missing achievements toll something drops
then it starts ...thinking about how I could use it, how to change my build completely and start as different role completely.
So my Nightblade was already running with 7 piece med, dual and 2-handed, later with 2-handed & bow
...another time mixed medium hist bark with heavy pieces of footman and started tanking
For my guild when they see me in trials it's like '...wait, now you're running with a STAFF???'
Sometimes I'm changing from week to week in roles and builds.
I know for sure, that I will never find kind of 'perfect build', there's always something that I can change, improve and mix with other skills.
That's why I'm enjoying ESO so much. I don't need countless alts, got all my professions just on one character
and I can play pretty much as any role thanks to class skills too.
Class skill make nice difference between play styles and imo would be really bad if they were removed.

ItsGlaive

I think the classes I fine, I think it sorely lacks gameplay variety for longevity - housing, more crafting (farming maybe), racing horses, RAISING horses, sea combat... just a few ideas that could add some variety and stave off the boredom of repetition.

Xinz'r

Introduce classes from TES IV - Oblivion

Darkeus

The classes are fine for me, BUT i would like to see more skill trees or something, maybe in the end game to be able to learn 1 skill tree from another class.
The only class i dont like in this game is the sorc, why? i imagined sorc to be something with fire ice wind magic and another class to have his summoner skill tree like a necromancer or something.

RainfeatherUK

I'm a big fan of classes, the trinity principle generally and a long term player of 'traditional' mmo's. So it likely wouldnt take much to sell me the idea of new things lol.

That said, ZoS eliminated the warden class for its lack of general purpose in game. I don't think a greater number of classes fits with their vision; which is to let the good times roll with new skill lines in the future. Perhaps even the now legendary myth of spellcrafting.

New weapon lines is what I'm hoping for really atm.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

A skill system originally hailed for its customization options doesn't appear to be truly that grand, when it comes to Elder Scrolls Online. In today's MMORPG environment min/maxxers are king. The significant majority of players have already calculated all the information, discovered the most capable (or efficient) builds in the game. Each build has a role or niche it excels in. Eventually players get bored of a role or niche they've been performing in and will desire to make a new character. For me personally, this is the case. But, as I sit here at the character select screen I am indecisive and even discouraged. None of the classes appeal to me because I already know what builds work later on and which ones are sub-par.

Do you agree? If so, why?
If not, explain why.

The players cause it to happen in every MMO, with endless cries from those whining about OP classes and demanding 'their' class gets the same abilities .. most MMO players seem to want just one class, THEIR CLASS and all others deleting: PVP is the biggest cause of this.

Seth_Black

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

New weapon lines is what I'm hoping for really atm.

I'm thinking about same direction of skills evolution. Some new weapon skill lines would be really cool.
Or at least some kind of 'Master Skill Tree' where you could for example use Shield with staff (would be op like hell but still look cool and tbh blocking with a STICK looks completely stupid ) or something like 'learning' how to use for example 2-handed weapon in style of dual wield resulting in 2-hand steel tornado or dual learning from 2-hand how to do upper cut with both weapons at once.
And to access it you need to level up main weapon skill to 50 anyway.
This would introduce a lot of new combat animations and definitely make builds even more interesting