Dear ZOS, Your CC is not working

Jaxsun

Xsorus wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Apologies for the lack of response, been head down in beta reports. We'll go through this thread (and the others) and pull together information for the team to check out. Thanks for the details, and we'll let you know what we find.

plz fix this issue. I left WoWs PvP for this very reason. It was nothing but CC perma stun bullcrap.:(

Unfortunately, cc's are the new meta for mmo's. They all have them, STO, WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO and ESO. I hate the idea of losing control of your character. Snares and roots aren't too bad, provided they don't last more than 2-3 seconds, but being locked out of all movement and ability use is crap. Long gone is SWG, which is still the best MMO ever. It had one stun, pistol whip and it wad a melee ability and a couple of snares.

lol, you would of really hated DAOC

9 Second Stuns with 15 Minute Cooldowns on Break Free

I think you're right, I would have hated that.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just a quick update - we're still going through a number of the items mentioned in this thread to determine if they're working as designed, or if there's a legit bug with one or more abilities.

cozmon3c_ESO

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

Huntler

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a quick update - we're still going through a number of the items mentioned in this thread to determine if they're working as designed, or if there's a legit bug with one or more abilities.

Appreciate the update Gina, I'll keep my eyes peeled!

umagon

My question is why is hard cc even needed in pvp given all the tools players already have. If things like block need more counters then some skills could be made unblockable. Same could be done for doge and some skills could bypass barriers/shields. My main problem with lose control of the character type of cc is the fact it overshadows everything. Players always have build around useing it or countering it. Which limits build diversity and creates builds that are de facto standard.

Agrippa_Invisus

Jaxsun wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Apologies for the lack of response, been head down in beta reports. We'll go through this thread (and the others) and pull together information for the team to check out. Thanks for the details, and we'll let you know what we find.

plz fix this issue. I left WoWs PvP for this very reason. It was nothing but CC perma stun bullcrap.:(

Unfortunately, cc's are the new meta for mmo's. They all have them, STO, WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO and ESO. I hate the idea of losing control of your character. Snares and roots aren't too bad, provided they don't last more than 2-3 seconds, but being locked out of all movement and ability use is crap. Long gone is SWG, which is still the best MMO ever. It had one stun, pistol whip and it wad a melee ability and a couple of snares.

lol, you would of really hated DAOC

9 Second Stuns with 15 Minute Cooldowns on Break Free

I think you're right, I would have hated that.

Oooh. @Xsorus don't forget the minute+ long mezz/sleep spells either! The ones they had to specifically add 'de-mezz' spells into the game for so only one person had to burn their break free.

Xsorus

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Apologies for the lack of response, been head down in beta reports. We'll go through this thread (and the others) and pull together information for the team to check out. Thanks for the details, and we'll let you know what we find.

plz fix this issue. I left WoWs PvP for this very reason. It was nothing but CC perma stun bullcrap.:(

Unfortunately, cc's are the new meta for mmo's. They all have them, STO, WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO and ESO. I hate the idea of losing control of your character. Snares and roots aren't too bad, provided they don't last more than 2-3 seconds, but being locked out of all movement and ability use is crap. Long gone is SWG, which is still the best MMO ever. It had one stun, pistol whip and it wad a melee ability and a couple of snares.

lol, you would of really hated DAOC

9 Second Stuns with 15 Minute Cooldowns on Break Free

I think you're right, I would have hated that.

Oooh. @Xsorus don't forget the minute+ long mezz/sleep spells either! The ones they had to specifically add 'de-mezz' spells into the game for so only one person had to burn their break free.

lol yea, DAOC had long CC immunity afterward though, it was 5xDuration of the spell, so 9 second stun resulted in 45 Seconds of immunity from CC after ya broke it.

Mez/Sleep Spells also were generally reduced by Determination if ya had it, which was nice..You could get minute long spells to about 12 seconds.

Huntler

In new frontiers you could get the break out (Called Purge) down to 5 minute cooldown . So... that was nice. But as someone already said, while the game had insanely long CC, it also had insanely long immunities. Funnily enough CC wasn't really that broken or spammable since it also had diminishing returns. If you stunned or mezzed someone who was already CCed for example, it DRASTICALLY reduced the time. I like a system like that, punishing CC spammers.

danno8

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

Add the lag to the fact that TTK is 1-2 seconds and you get constant WTF moments.

Yesterday I was killed so fast by a Surprise Attack, LA, Soul Harvest (who then cloaked without me even seeing them) that nothing at all registered visually. My character just paused and dropped dead.

In this case I think it may have been a macro though, since I have tried to replicate it in PvE by animation cancelling and I can't do it even half as fast.

Huntler

danno816_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

Add the lag to the fact that TTK is 1-2 seconds and you get constant WTF moments.

Yesterday I was killed so fast by a Surprise Attack, LA, Soul Harvest (who then cloaked without me even seeing them) that nothing at all registered visually. My character just paused and dropped dead.

In this case I think it may have been a macro though, since I have tried to replicate it in PvE by animation cancelling and I can't do it even half as fast.

I will say this only one more time very simply.... MACROS AND ANIMATION CANCELLING CAN'T MAKE YOU BYPASS ABILITY GCDs

danno8

Huntler wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

Add the lag to the fact that TTK is 1-2 seconds and you get constant WTF moments.

Yesterday I was killed so fast by a Surprise Attack, LA, Soul Harvest (who then cloaked without me even seeing them) that nothing at all registered visually. My character just paused and dropped dead.

In this case I think it may have been a macro though, since I have tried to replicate it in PvE by animation cancelling and I can't do it even half as fast.

I will say this only one more time very simply.... MACROS AND ANIMATION CANCELLING CAN'T MAKE YOU BYPASS ABILITY GCDs

I wish I had recorded it.

Anyway, like I said, "add to the lag", so there was no doubt some delay there where all the skills just went "bamm!" at the same time.

krim

Huntler wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

Add the lag to the fact that TTK is 1-2 seconds and you get constant WTF moments.

Yesterday I was killed so fast by a Surprise Attack, LA, Soul Harvest (who then cloaked without me even seeing them) that nothing at all registered visually. My character just paused and dropped dead.

In this case I think it may have been a macro though, since I have tried to replicate it in PvE by animation cancelling and I can't do it even half as fast.

I will say this only one more time very simply.... MACROS AND ANIMATION CANCELLING CAN'T MAKE YOU BYPASS ABILITY GCDs

Bet you'll have to say it again.

Itoq

Huntler wrote: »

MACROS AND ANIMATION CANCELLING CAN'T MAKE YOU BYPASS ABILITY GCDs

Because nobody has ever worked around game rules to make something happen that should not happen?

I am not saying that I think there are actual ways around the GCD in ESO but it isn't like something like this hasn't been worked around before in thousands of games before...

It seems to me that most of the issues with CC and multi-hit-insta-combos come from the netcode and how the client-server-client prioritizes which info is processed when.

Players may be or may not be abusing CC and multi-hit-insta-combos with awareness of what they are doing. But, in any case, I don't think that what they do bypasses GCD and CC rules in the sense of the first client - rather much of the problem lies in the way that the receiving end client and server process the information.

Gorthax

Huntler wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

klink012 wrote: »

And what's up with 3-4 abilities hitting all their dmg at once? These abilities are not timed to explode after a certain time like curse. But in 1 second I see 4 abilities from the same person and I'm dead, with no time to react.

I have spoken with several people about this, and it turns out that some players have started using animation cancelling in conjunction with macros to quickly (and flawlessly) execute several moves in rapid succession. There is an addon that you can use to immediately cancel the animation of whatever spell you're casting. One common macro is to map a single key to cast entropy, cancel the animation, then cast a hard hitting spell. Certain channelled spells (specifically Templar biting jabs) are bugged; if you animation cancel at the right moment, all the damage hits at once even though the animation doesn't play.

@C0pp3rhead I have a video from last night that shows EXACTLY this happening......I block the leap but still get knocked back (thats one attack) then you see CLEARLY two more attacks (for a total of 3) but the death recap shows 5 attacks.......

Click my wtf just happened signature to see it

Call me crazy, but I see exactly what happened there... nothing suspect (other than some latency on blocking the leap).

1. He leaps and hits you (we all agree there), it looks like there was a delay or latency between when he leaped and you blocked, that is probably the most unfortunate part of the whole situation
2. Then which is hard to see because he does it so quickly, he does just barely a heavy attack. Literally it registers as a heavy attack if he holds the mouse key down, but he only does it for an instant so its basically a light attack (notice the damage diff between the light and heavy attack is minimal). Likely what happened is as he was jumping he was holding his mouse key down to hit you immediately after the leap (the animation doesn't register usually when spamming light or medium attacks between skills).
3. He wrecking blows (you can see the windup time for this).
4. As with any good player, between abilities spamming light attack is basically an instant damage bonus and as said before the animation rarely shows up (no macro needed).
5. then he executes you and we see that animation.


This isn't something macros are doing, anyone can do it. Run up to a mob and between melee skills, hit light attack than spam your next skill. You'll see, its just how you can string attacks together. Its efficient and especially important for how ultimate is gained these days.

@Huntler I see all three animations, and I know what weaving is, but the issue is that it happened in such a way that you have no way of countering it. I mean dont get me wrong, I am not complaining here lol I am just showing what happened. It was very...odd? Odd dont seem right but still. How are you supposed to react to 2 ninja attacks you never even get to see? Thats the issue. That being said, I know animation canceling isnt going anywhere as ZoS has said it is here to stay.

People can say L2P (*shrugs*) but it is hard to learn to counter ninja attacks you never get to see. Next time I will dodge roll from the leap like usual, this time I decided to block it for some reason lol but that isnt what was baffeling

Huntler

Itoq wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

MACROS AND ANIMATION CANCELLING CAN'T MAKE YOU BYPASS ABILITY GCDs

Because nobody has ever worked around game rules to make something happen that should not happen?

I am not saying that I think there are actual ways around the GCD in ESO but it isn't like something like this hasn't been worked around before in thousands of games before...

It seems to me that most of the issues with CC and multi-hit-insta-combos come from the netcode and how the client-server-client prioritizes which info is processed when.

Players may be or may not be abusing CC and multi-hit-insta-combos with awareness of what they are doing. But, in any case, I don't think that what they do bypasses GCD and CC rules in the sense of the first client - rather much of the problem lies in the way that the receiving end client and server process the information.

I have yet to see a video that wasn't legit. Everyone who claims to have been "macroed" or whatever you want to call it knowledgable players can see whats happening. I'd be happy to discuss any example or video you or anyone else has to show, if someone does indeed have good proof I will take my medicine and 100% apologize, but I have yet to see it. Everyones' first assumption when it comes to games like this when they die and can't explain it, is not to wonder what could have happened... their first jump always goes to exploit, hacks, macros, whatever you want to call it. You can literally see these things happen in lag... there are hundreds upon thousands of examples of where damage catches up in lag/latency.


So until someone shows me something that is actual proof, I'm going to continue to call BS on this. Its always people who don't understand what animation cancelling is good for that scream from the top of their lungs that it lets them use abilities faster.... that is disgustingly false and all it does is show who knows what animation cancelling is and who doesn't. Furthermore, macros aren't some hocus pocus voodoo, they can only do what the client allows. If there are abilities without a GCD (or in this game forced animation times before firing of another ability even if that animation can be cancelled, the time cannot be... you can however fire off light/medium attacks during that time) macros can exploit them, but so can a human with a finger.

Huntler

Gorthax wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

klink012 wrote: »

And what's up with 3-4 abilities hitting all their dmg at once? These abilities are not timed to explode after a certain time like curse. But in 1 second I see 4 abilities from the same person and I'm dead, with no time to react.

I have spoken with several people about this, and it turns out that some players have started using animation cancelling in conjunction with macros to quickly (and flawlessly) execute several moves in rapid succession. There is an addon that you can use to immediately cancel the animation of whatever spell you're casting. One common macro is to map a single key to cast entropy, cancel the animation, then cast a hard hitting spell. Certain channelled spells (specifically Templar biting jabs) are bugged; if you animation cancel at the right moment, all the damage hits at once even though the animation doesn't play.

@C0pp3rhead I have a video from last night that shows EXACTLY this happening......I block the leap but still get knocked back (thats one attack) then you see CLEARLY two more attacks (for a total of 3) but the death recap shows 5 attacks.......

Click my wtf just happened signature to see it

Call me crazy, but I see exactly what happened there... nothing suspect (other than some latency on blocking the leap).

1. He leaps and hits you (we all agree there), it looks like there was a delay or latency between when he leaped and you blocked, that is probably the most unfortunate part of the whole situation
2. Then which is hard to see because he does it so quickly, he does just barely a heavy attack. Literally it registers as a heavy attack if he holds the mouse key down, but he only does it for an instant so its basically a light attack (notice the damage diff between the light and heavy attack is minimal). Likely what happened is as he was jumping he was holding his mouse key down to hit you immediately after the leap (the animation doesn't register usually when spamming light or medium attacks between skills).
3. He wrecking blows (you can see the windup time for this).
4. As with any good player, between abilities spamming light attack is basically an instant damage bonus and as said before the animation rarely shows up (no macro needed).
5. then he executes you and we see that animation.


This isn't something macros are doing, anyone can do it. Run up to a mob and between melee skills, hit light attack than spam your next skill. You'll see, its just how you can string attacks together. Its efficient and especially important for how ultimate is gained these days.

@Huntler I see all three animations, and I know what weaving is, but the issue is that it happened in such a way that you have no way of countering it. I mean dont get me wrong, I am not complaining here lol I am just showing what happened. It was very...odd? Odd dont seem right but still. How are you supposed to react to 2 ninja attacks you never even get to see? Thats the issue. That being said, I know animation canceling isnt going anywhere as ZoS has said it is here to stay.

People can say L2P (*shrugs*) but it is hard to learn to counter ninja attacks you never get to see. Next time I will dodge roll from the leap like usual, this time I decided to block it for some reason lol but that isnt what was baffeling

This is something that is inherently a problem with the game. You have to play around the fact that you don't get to see everything you should because of how poorly this game performs (especially in laggy conditions). Your example here is annoying enough because when you see someone out of stealth actually hit you, means you've likely already been hit by 2 abilities (maybe 3). Thats how the game performs/works unfortunately.... yell at ZOS about it.

vortexman11

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

its sad that so many players can agree that there are definitive issues with CC that need fixing asap. and yet, nothing is happening on the development end. whats worse is that ZoS KNOWS about all of these issues and yet we wait for fixes that don't come.

@ZoS -- i think there can be only one take away from this thread...........


#BUFFDK's

Well as per Gina's quote I put in the OP, you'll see they know of our complaints, but "internal testing" showed no problems. Which is clearly wrong, so they think there isn't an issue. I literally detailed what I wanted them to test, I quoted in my last post someone who also clearly explained (better than I did) what is happening. Those are easily reproducible problems, I did it myself and ZOS can too internally if they follow the exact steps.

I would like to know more about their internal testing process. Does it involve top of the line computers optimized for the game? Do they use any addons? Are they feet away from where the server is located and have a ping 10? When they say "test" I'd really like to know what that means.

I found how they test the game...

https://youtu.be/j_ekugPKqFw

Looks like vortexman being ganged up on by Ezareth and some pubs

Yep, this video is a pretty accurate view of my everyday PvP life

Cypriot122

Can you also please fix Meteor's going through block, thanks

Sarousse

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a quick update - we're still going through a number of the items mentioned in this thread to determine if they're working as designed, or if there's a legit bug with one or more abilities.

6 days later, any answer yet ?

Huntler

mislucb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a quick update - we're still going through a number of the items mentioned in this thread to determine if they're working as designed, or if there's a legit bug with one or more abilities.

6 days later, any answer yet ?

Huntler

About that update.....

Ghostbane

Etaniel

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

i think a lot of them are exacerbated by any lag what so ever, cc break needs to be faster and more responsive imo. faster animation, and client side response for quick cc breaks like casting a shield or a heal during high lag.

^this I'm quite sure that in a lag free environment, with 3 people in one campaign, we wouldn't get so much inconsistency in gameplay, which probably explains why so many bugs go past internal testing.

Another example off CC stupidity :
You are feared, you don't have immunity yet as you haven't broken out of cc. You start the breaking out animation, which drains your stamina before it is completed, and while you are braeking out, you take a wrecking blow to the face. Result : you are stunned by the WB for a full duration, and your stamina already took a hit because it got used to start that cc break.

Lava_Croft

Also awesome: get hit by Wrecking Blow and before it's human possible to break free, you are hit with the second.

CC in this game does not work well when any kind of meaningful latency is involved.

Oughash

Etaniel wrote: »

Another example off CC stupidity :
You are feared, you don't have immunity yet as you haven't broken out of cc. You start the breaking out animation, which drains your stamina before it is completed, and while you are braeking out, you take a wrecking blow to the face. Result : you are stunned by the WB for a full duration, and your stamina already took a hit because it got used to start that cc break.

OR you get from Wrecking Blow 20m away b/c the game latency hadn't caught up with what is being displayed to you and you didn't see that guy spamming WB.

Etaniel

Ishammael wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Another example off CC stupidity :
You are feared, you don't have immunity yet as you haven't broken out of cc. You start the breaking out animation, which drains your stamina before it is completed, and while you are braeking out, you take a wrecking blow to the face. Result : you are stunned by the WB for a full duration, and your stamina already took a hit because it got used to start that cc break.

OR you get from Wrecking Blow 20m away b/c the game latency hadn't caught up with what is being displayed to you and you didn't see that guy spamming WB.

Even better and doesnt require lag, you are running along, and take a wrecking blow in the back that you couldn't see as the camera range in your back is smaller than the WB range. And then I hear gg learn to block noob haha

Oughash

Etaniel wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Another example off CC stupidity :
You are feared, you don't have immunity yet as you haven't broken out of cc. You start the breaking out animation, which drains your stamina before it is completed, and while you are braeking out, you take a wrecking blow to the face. Result : you are stunned by the WB for a full duration, and your stamina already took a hit because it got used to start that cc break.

OR you get from Wrecking Blow 20m away b/c the game latency hadn't caught up with what is being displayed to you and you didn't see that guy spamming WB.

Even better and doesnt require lag, you are running along, and take a wrecking blow in the back that you couldn't see as the camera range in your back is smaller than the WB range. And then I hear gg learn to block noob haha

Hahaha. Or you are fighting some guy and then another player WB/Snipes you from stealth then teabags you.

Huntler

Gorthax

Zos cant and wont fix anything lol (regards to pvp) the sooner we all accept this the quicker we can all learn to cc chain our enemies and exploit everything as much as possible until everyone is doing it and ZoS says "its part of the game and is here to stay"

Perphection

If they could just get CC immunity to work, it would be 1000x better than it's been for the duration of this game. But, I'd seriously appreciate it if I could break fear.. yeah.. that'd be nice.

People wonder why ZOS doesn't play their own game, and it's because it's broken and they know it. They'd rather subscribe to a game that actively fixes problems =/