Are Templars balanced now?

david.haypreub18_ESO

Update 1.6 focused in part on rebalancing the Templar class, which was seen as one of the weaker (if not the weakest) class in the game by a substantial number of players. We've had several weeks now to assess the success of these changes. So what do you think?

My 2 cents: The attempt to rebalance Templars was oddly done and in the end ultimately unsuccessful, because for every step forward there was also a step back:

--Biting Jabs now scales off stamina (yay!) but gives free CC immunity (boo)
--Jesus Beam gives an execute (yay!) but eliminates the Templars' only AoE CC (boo)
--Remembrance boosted (yay!) but then nerfed at the same time by changing the time between ticks (boo)
--Stamina builds have new morph options (yay!) but the sole reason to be a stamina Templar is wrecked with the massive nerf to Restoring Aura (boo)
--Some other new bells and whistles (yay!) but a major nerf to Templars' healing passive (boo)

Another problem with the changes is that they did not fix the bugs that were one of the primary reasons why the Templars were struggling. Only several weeks after the update, due to continual outcry from Templars, were steps taken to address the year-old Charge bug and the problems with Eclipse. Other bugs remain even today, most notably that Biting Jabs is giving CC immunity.

Recent polls on the forums suggest Templars are still firmly in last place for PvP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/166110/weakest-class-in-pvp#latest

There are other posts in these boards that list suggestions on what to do about Templars; this isn't a thread to duplicate those threads. Rather, this is just a poll regarding whether you think the attempts to balance Templars were successful or not. So what do you think? Am I wrong, and Templars are actually well balanced? Or do you think the attempts to balance the class failed?

Cinbri

No, Templars are still not balanced

Templars are slowly dissapearing coz of despair class situation, i guess this is answer on question. How despair you ask - templar spamming 1 button, Radiant Destruction (i.e. finisher) on fully hp enemy; or templar spamming 1 button, Breath of Life - thats how despair it.

Alcast

PvE:
Stam temp top DPS
Magicka temp ok DPS

PvP:
Both pretty *** compared to other classes

david.haypreub18_ESO

No, Templars are still not balanced

Seems like the results are pretty clear.

Khivas_Carrick

Yes, Templars are balanced now

Bugs aside, for PvE we are very, very balanced with the other classes, some cases doing far better.

For PvP, we're damn near bottom tier if not already, but far from totally useless.

In a sense, yes we're balanced now, just not the ideal form of balance that many want and some need.

Francescolg

No, Templars are still not balanced

This patch nurfed us left and right.. The reaction, to blame ZOS for the nurf and to write enough tickets (in numbers), was no option for most templars. At the current state of ESO, supposed that ZOS is "evil" and an enemy for most templars, they introduced a new skill to keep YOUR attention just on that and on some other great opportunities this patch offers (magicka regen outshines). Beside, the general attention atm is raised up on the mage class (see forum threads).

There are so many mages around the forums that they even have poem writing guys amongst them and song singing, mustache wearing superstars, as Freddy Mercury was, singing about champions, while outside the game - in the forums you will find just general understatement: "we're far from OP! Shut up or ruin our class! Everything is fine!" (this is just strategy - most sorcerers know that - until summer - there will be no patch "to fear". The fotm-period will be much longer than a month..so they try to extend this period. I bet some sorc-players do even more to maintain their current status, producing videos that show how weak they really are - that all 'call for nurfs' are unjustified and that, therefore, the sorc class has to be buffed even more!)

---

Most templars don't care so much about 1v1 balancing - excuse me but I have to admit it - because they just play the class in bigger parties, so they get their ultimate-bubble shield regularly and have no problems to stay alive. Even if they are bad healers (not able to heal damage-spikes because they solely focus on their beloved resto-staff heals.. lol) patches don't matter so much to them.

/edit errors, moderation, etc.

Soris

No, Templars are still not balanced

Blaming templars for lack of whining, and thus they are so doomed right now? Did you mean that seriously?

There are threads over 20k views and thousands of posts about bugs and nerfs There are poll threads about how bad they perform in PvP / PvE compared to the other classes. There are hundreds of threads about how to improve class abilities, passives, synergies between weapon skills and class passives etc..

Are you new in forums?

The thing is that they absolutely intended to nerf the class power and they are now ignoring people who still giving feedback. Do some search man.

Edit: Well, good thing you edited your post before getting more attention. Anyways.

Francescolg

No, Templars are still not balanced

Soris wrote: »

The thing is that they absolutely intended to nerf the class power and they are now ignoring people who still giving feedback. Do some search man.

Edit: Well, good thing you edited your post before getting more attention. Anyways.

No, I am not new to the forum as aren't you :-) Be so kind and accept my editing, thank you! I have to do so because my language skills are not the best. From a respectable person, as I know you are, I would never expect criticism just for editing!

So lets see what you might refer to:
- They made a prominent thread on skill-animations and other minor issues
- ZOS came and said they will patch it
- They "patched" it
- The day after: focused chage is still buggy, not just the animation time but the whole animation bug which lets you run with your spear forever is there
- Start from the beginning

We have been "shut down" and nurfed long enough, while phrases like "bugged templar skills" have just became "empty signifiers" because of their high frequency in the forums. Meanwhile, the support abilities were cutted and nurf after nurf was done. There are so many "little nurfs" that it would take a long time to count them.

So, you say (..they say..) "an absolutely intended class power nurf was done by purpose". Are you knew to the game? Do you, did you feel that templars were too powerful? Were sorcerers "class power nurfed in this patch"?
We'll speak again about this issue after 1.7. and I'll pick up again some claims I made in my first post. Since no major rebalancing will be done, we have the great opportunity to wait and observe till summer.

/edit for the "fun" of editing

Soris

No, Templars are still not balanced

Francescolg wrote: »

No, I am not new to the forum as aren't you :-) Be so kind and accept my editing, thank you! I have to do so because my language skills are not the best. From a respectable person, as I know you are, I would never expect criticism just for editing!

After seeing your edit, I put an edit in my post the part you quoted.

Francescolg wrote: »

So lets see what you might refer to:
- They made a prominent thread on skill-animations and other minor issues
- ZOS came and said they will patch it
- They "patched" it
- The day after: focused chage is still buggy, not just the animation time but the whole animation bug which lets you run with your spear forever is there
- Start from the beginning

Not only bugs but yes.

Francescolg wrote: »

So, you say (..they say..) "an absolutely intended class power nurf was done by purpose". Are you knew to the game? Do you, did you feel that templars were too powerful? Were sorcerers "class power nurfed in this patch"?

Templars before update 6 were indeed powerful with some builds and were weak with some other builds just like everyone else. They were #1 for stamina warrior type builds for example. Like you said, with this last "little nerf" as it being the latest step of continuous nerfs to the class since end of beta, they instantly become sub par for all kind of builds compared to the other classes. Ended up with no viable builds. Overall all the "ok" builds of us can be performed waaaay better by other classes.

Francescolg wrote: »

We'll speak again about this issue after 1.7. and I'll pick up again some claims I made in my first post. Since no major rebalancing will be done, we have the great opportunity to wait and observe till summer.

Well yeah they keep saying they gonna do some re-balance for whole game in summer. I doubt, this is not gonna magickally solve all the templar specific problems. When last time they did that, just sent us into oblivion.

likewow777

No, Templars are still not balanced

I think you should probably have had a third of fourth option, separating PvE and PvP.

In PvE, yes, I'd say that Templars are balanced. Some DPS builds don't do as well as others, but I can live with being, probably, the best healers in the game and one of the best tank classes. Hell, even having said that, you can pretty much equip a 2H and beat the crap out of anything.

Still, I'd say that when most people agree that Templars are the bottom in PvP, that's not balance.

King Bozo

No, Templars are still not balanced

Templar are the best healers imo. However, they lack magic dps for pvp. Should you run a full spec heals on your bar don't expect much dps from magic dps on your second bar. I would say Templar healers are the easiest to gank and kill.

xaraan

I enjoy my templar more now, I like many of the changes. Stam builds are strong, even with nerf to rest. aura. I do feel like the healing got a bit weaker, which I don't much care for. I still prefer resto for most things, but breath is good in an emergency, but if it's not going to hit as hard as before, then it should be cheaper. Their shield is kind of short in duration (even for doing damage with blazing version) when compared to other class shields.

WhitePawPrints

No, Templars are still not balanced

Balance can never really be achieved. I can say that Templars are a lot more in line with the other classes now, but they still do underperform in Cyrodil.

I had to completely rework my Templar after 1.6 and I am satisfied with him. Went from a sneaky DPS/Heals to Tank and it's much easier to PVE now that I can tank groups of more than 20 mobs.

Templar heals are weaker than a lot of self heals on other classes too. Would like to see that become stronger.

Dragonknights still dominate the field, with their outrageous tanking and DPS. Templars mostly need some good escapes, or more tanking/dps to be on par with Dragonknights.

PKMN12

there will never be any kind of balance, not with such an open system.

Animal_Mother

No, Templars are still not balanced

We need our bugged skills fixed.

Then for PVP, the devs need to decide how they want us to play. If we are to slug it out as a tank or melee, we really need a good AoE CC skill. If we are to be healers or magicka dps, we need an escape. I hope they chose slug it out.

The only problem I have in PVE is excessive downtime while regenerating magicka - I'm stamina heavy, though.

david.haypreub18_ESO

No, Templars are still not balanced

My personal choice is to take the hard CC away from Biting Jabs and give it soft CC, like an immobilize or a snare. That solves two problems (the problem that the skill is hampered by giving out hard CC immunity like candy, and the fact that the Templars have no AoE CC) with one change.

BugCollector

No, Templars are still not balanced

Magicka Templars are still very weak in PvP and in PvE they're only good for healing (no DPS). Also the Dawns Wrath tree is still very weak when you compare it to the Sorcerer Caster's skills.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

BugCollector wrote: »

Magicka Templars are still very weak in PvP and in PvE they're only good for healing (no DPS). Also the Dawns Wrath tree is still very weak when you compare it to the Sorcerer Caster's skills.

LOL. In PVE Magicka Templar Tank with the correct gear, generates more dps than any other tank, especially for multiple targets, and has superb survival ability if uses Puncturing Sweep and Radial Sweep mopping the floor while heals at the same time.

Can even tank 10 vr12 mobs and not require a single healing from the dedicated healer.

Khivas_Carrick

Yes, Templars are balanced now

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Magicka Templars are still very weak in PvP and in PvE they're only good for healing (no DPS). Also the Dawns Wrath tree is still very weak when you compare it to the Sorcerer Caster's skills.

LOL. In PVE Magicka Templar Tank with the correct gear, generates more dps than any other tank, especially for multiple targets, and has superb survival ability if uses Puncturing Sweep and Radial Sweep mopping the floor while heals at the same time.

Can even tank 10 vr12 mobs and not require a single healing from the dedicated healer.

I believe he meant only the cloth wearing ones with sticks. I admit I nearly misread that as him saying that Templars in general can't do DPS, and I was about to virtually slap him XD

But I did notice early that somebody mentioned Templars before 1.6 being strong stamina DPS?

I just want to say to you that you are horribly wrong and obviously confused, because Templars were garbage DPS no matter the build, but now we're strong, and I don't even use restoring aura.

Alcast

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Magicka Templars are still very weak in PvP and in PvE they're only good for healing (no DPS). Also the Dawns Wrath tree is still very weak when you compare it to the Sorcerer Caster's skills.

LOL. In PVE Magicka Templar Tank with the correct gear, generates more dps than any other tank, especially for multiple targets, and has superb survival ability if uses Puncturing Sweep and Radial Sweep mopping the floor while heals at the same time.

Can even tank 10 vr12 mobs and not require a single healing from the dedicated healer.

in PvE NB tanks are FAR superior to ANY other Tanks in game. NB infinite resources.

Mystikkal

The OPs question depends on what perspective you look at it from. Templars are still the best healers in the game.. and with radiant destruction, they have become overall stronger when playing primarily as a healer (because now they also have a great offensive ability).

They are the weakest class in pvp, however, if they try to do something besides heal.

Francescolg

No, Templars are still not balanced

Mystikkal wrote: »

and with radiant destruction, they have become overall stronger when playing primarily as a healer (because now they also have a great offensive ability).

I'm sorry but this is wrong! To give us that skill they took away the stronger "Blinding Flashes" (AoE CC), while Radiant Destruction is just another not-so outstanding executioner, compared to other finishers as DKs Molten Weapons: which offer you up to 25k+ heavy attacks in execution phase, while Templars have to "channel" (no defense/healing possible, high interrupt-ability, high spot-abilitity, etc.) for the same damage output. Beside that, "Molten Weapons" gives you a nice +40% buff on weapon attacks, which, imo, makes it a stronger Executioner than Jesus Beam. (not mentioning any passives).

The major point of the "anti-Jesus Beam critics", when talking about Executioners, is that Jesus Beam is not reflectable and difficult to interrupt, so it can be mindlessly spammed. While, if I play DK, I'll first have to check the "reflectability status" of my target before I load the heavy weapon attack for 20k+ up on it. (not mentioning any passives, just talking about casters / high spell dmg, even weapon dmg + bow for Molten Weapons).

---

Imo, Jesus Beam was only invented to make the nurf of Blinding Flashes (the Templar's only serious AE-CC) digestable! Nobody, not even other Templars, complain too much about the nurfs in 1.6. and Blinding Flashes is already being forgotten.

If you take into consideration all 4 classes, Radiant Destruction is nothing special and every Executioner is a "great offensive" ability. It is just an option which all classes have.

Francescolg

No, Templars are still not balanced

Sorry, I'd give a ..... for a true cancel-option in this forums.

RainfeatherUK

No, Templars are still not balanced

The only word/comment required is;

No.

How is it really a discussion. Everyone knows 110% that the state of templar is ridiculous, its clunky and nowhere near the feel of other classes in this game. Needs to have a massive revision, with devs sitting down on it for a very long time and overhauling almost everything.

Enough said.

Khivas_Carrick

Yes, Templars are balanced now

For PvP maybe. For PvE I love my Templar DPS, and let me rephrase my first comment; Templar PvP and Magicka DPS need a revision, but even then it's not that severe. Like Christ, you guys are really upset far more than you should be. Not saying you shouldn't be upset, but this is nowhere near as bad as we used to be.

Khivas_Carrick

Yes, Templars are balanced now

And again, it's all from how you view it.

Zsymon

Templars are by far the worst class of the game, it doesn't even come close to the other classes. Templar skills are either useless, underpowered or bugged. Under VR10 it is not so bad, at least in PvE, you can come by with spamming Puncturing Strikes as either magicka or stamina, but once you hit VR14 you will under-perform in every roll and in every part of the game.

In PvP Templars are just free APs, they have no way to kill anyone decent, due to having no magicka dps on one hand and no CC that breaks through block for stamina users on the other hand, and neither builds have any way to survive any length of time.

Templars were good at one thing only: healing, and ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided to nerf Templar healing into the ground, cutting it literally in half, where any other class with a staff is better now, due to strong skills such as DK's have with their Igneous Shield, or Sorcerers with their increased spell power and magicka regeneration, or Nightblades with some very strong healing spells.

Khivas_Carrick

Yes, Templars are balanced now

Yea, no. I don't know what you're doing but my DPS is usually higher than most and the only two people to consistently top me is a NB and DK. Seriously I'm struggling to learn where people are having trouble playing a Templar in PvE.

I mean ***, I'm an Imperial Stam build and I've healed Vet Dungeons and Reg DSA in purples with white enchants and no set jewels. It really isn't insanely hard at all and I don't see how exactly other classes outperform us as healers. If anything I'm game now to bring more than just templars to heal my raids, but you can bet your ass I'm bringing at least two or three and one is sure as hell being a healer.

Animal_Mother

No, Templars are still not balanced

Francescolg wrote: »

Imo, Jesus Beam was only invented to make the nurf of Blinding Flashes (the Templar's only serious AE-CC) digestable! Nobody, not even other Templars, complain too much about the nurfs in 1.6. and Blinding Flashes is already being forgotten.

Blinding Flashes was what kept me alive against the fear inducing NBs. Now I don't really have a counter for them. Let's not forget nerfs to Radiant Destruction that have come out since it appeared - it's not really the Jesus beam, anymore - it's more like "I'm a magicka Templar. Free AP here." spotlight.

Zsymon wrote: »

Templars are by far the worst class of the game, it doesn't even come close to the other classes. Templar skills are either useless, underpowered or bugged. Under VR10 it is not so bad, at least in PvE, you can come by with spamming Puncturing Strikes as either magicka or stamina, but once you hit VR14 you will under-perform in every roll and in every part of the game.

In PvP Templars are just free APs, they have no way to kill anyone decent, due to having no magicka dps on one hand and no CC that breaks through block for stamina users on the other hand, and neither builds have any way to survive any length of time.

Templars were good at one thing only: healing, and ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided to nerf Templar healing into the ground, cutting it literally in half, where any other class with a staff is better now, due to strong skills such as DK's have with their Igneous Shield, or Sorcerers with their increased spell power and magicka regeneration, or Nightblades with some very strong healing spells.

It really depends on build and playstyle in pvp. I've abandoned almost all healing (I use Purifying Ritual) and most Templar skills - due to their bugs. Nothing is worse than being unable to stealth or unable mount a horse because someone you healed 10 minutes ago is still in combat.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

For PvP maybe. For PvE I love my Templar DPS, and let me rephrase my first comment; Templar PvP and Magicka DPS need a revision, but even then it's not that severe. Like Christ, you guys are really upset far more than you should be. Not saying you shouldn't be upset, but this is nowhere near as bad as we used to be.

First, they have to fix our bugged skills; the big one for me is Repentance not working with Restoring Light passives. Then for PvP, I think ZOS needs to give us either an escape or an AOE CC. Eclipse might be a good candidate - the more they try to fix it, the more it breaks.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And again, it's all from how you view it.

Purifying Light instant cast is the best ever. I'm going through Caldwell's and soloing the bosses I skipped over.

---

Really, all I want is our Templar skills to be less buggy (or on par with weapon skill equivalents) and to have a defined role in PvP - escape or cc. Or maybe one skill that can morph into either an escape or area cc.

Joy_Division

No, Templars are still not balanced

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Yea, no. I don't know what you're doing but my DPS is usually higher than most and the only two people to consistently top me is a NB and DK. Seriously I'm struggling to learn where people are having trouble playing a Templar in PvE.

I mean ***, I'm an Imperial Stam build and I've healed Vet Dungeons and Reg DSA in purples with white enchants and no set jewels. It really isn't insanely hard at all and I don't see how exactly other classes outperform us as healers. If anything I'm game now to bring more than just templars to heal my raids, but you can bet your ass I'm bringing at least two or three and one is sure as hell being a healer.

Well, if your DPS is usually topped by a NB and a DK, that is 2 of the other 3 classes. And as far as the other class goes, that is the one that inspires "please nerf" threads everyday in the PvP forums so it ain't all that bad.

technohic

No, Templars are still not balanced

Templars do great in PvE as NPCs typically do not purge often, or move out of blazing spear, and do not bother to stay away from blazing shield bursting. They also tend to politely just stand in biting jabs even though jabs itself even politely trys to knock a target backwards out of its own range if you are not already CC immune from it.

The problem in PvP is our damage is cast, channelled or DOT. Even our best CC is a ground target AOE thats damage (if you take the damage morph) relies on targets staying in the area while it stuns just one target, if they happened to have stayed there long enough for it to land int he first place. So everything can be countered by interrupt, purge, or just move out of the way. Then the slow projectiles make it way easy to dodge.

Then you have slow animations and bugs...

So its not the power, its the presentation.