Sorcs are OP in PVP and PVE

pugyourself

Mumnoch wrote: »

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

After revisiting the intent of this thread, it looks like our earlier redirect was not a close enough match to warrant closure of this thread as a duplicate. Our apologies for any confusion/inconvenience this may have caused. In addition to reopening this thread, we've edited the title so that it more accurately reflects the topics being discussed in the thread. Feel free to join the PVP discussion for adding your thoughts on a successful balance to Sorcerers within Cyrodiil!

We've also removed a number of comments that were violations of our Code of Conduct regarding Trolling and Baiting. Please be aware that we expect all discussions on our forums to be constructive and civil and that we do not tolerate behavior that is not in line with our rules. Thank you for understanding.

We get you guys don't really care about Sorcs...however the OP is baiting the community with outlandish comment's like "Sorc's are OP in PVE". He doesn't even back up his statements in any way while numerous other people have posted logs/video's showing how much weaker the Sorc is compared to the other classes while also being Toggle dependent.

It's like the pot calling the kettle black...

100% Agree. Sorcs have been nerfed a lot. No one could post this thread while having been on these forums during 1.6 and not know what they were doing by posting it.

Senaxu

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Before 1.6, sorcerers were on par with other classes,

oh man, you made my day!

xSkullfox

Senaxu wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Before 1.6, sorcerers were on par with other classes,

oh man, you made my day!

request made my day button, +1


@Bfish22090

why you want a nerf to a class where you playing, dk is atm the op class, my dk lvl 24 can fight agains lvl40+ in pvp 1vs 1 !! (non vet)

Solution to every problem:
sarcasm "on"
nerf every weapon and skill to 0 dmg so that everyone have a chance of a fair fight.
sarcasm "off"

kijima

xSkullfox wrote: »

why you want a nerf to a class where you playing, dk is atm the op class, my dk lvl 24 can fight agains lvl40+ in pvp 1vs 1 !! (non vet)

That's a terrible example. A well played <insert class here> level 15 can kill a level 49 <anything> in non vet easily, it's the most level playing field out there.

If you want to nerf something, nerf good players.

xSkullfox

kijima wrote: »

xSkullfox wrote: »

why you want a nerf to a class where you playing, dk is atm the op class, my dk lvl 24 can fight agains lvl40+ in pvp 1vs 1 !! (non vet)

That's a terrible example. A well played <insert class here> level 15 can kill a level 49 <anything> in non vet easily, it's the most level playing field out there.

If you want to nerf something, nerf good players.

i have to mention that i play since start, i have about 150cp and set gear, fighting on thorn/azura is another story, but on the non vet experienced players who know how to play their class fighting agains noobs is only hilarious, 15 min pvp kd 63/1, they needed 7 archers to kill me, yolo

Hypertionb14_ESO

Damage shield stacking is a problem, not just on Sorc but any class that builds for it. (DK and templars can build like this as well). Damage shields should simply not STACK above 50% of your map HP... tho if a single shield goes above thats fine, just nothing else being able to add any more above it.

Fragments? well ZOS for some reason added a seperate empower to the proc so you can double empower it..., the other morph is as useless as always.

bolt escape is honestly fine... NB has Cloak which is just as effective but doesnt require you to get half way across the map to survive

Overload Light attacks? Ya another PvP problem... its average in PvE these days in terms of what you can do with it over something like Meteor and Atronach.

all the complaints about magicka sorcs... well there are stamina sorcs and right now they are utterly bottom barrel compaired to other classes... about the only thing a stam sorc can do better is self heal via Surge, which doesnt apply well if at all in PvP. the class has no stamina abilitys and is 100% unable to tank or heal anywhere near the ability of a DK or godforbid Templars..

so.. honestly just fix the Damage shield issue and Sorcs will be fine... ya they can do damage but its that shield stacking that makes them what they are in PvP and PvP alone...

In PvE, everything in the OP is 100% not an actual issue...

Valencer

Some of the numbers and "facts" thrown around on these forums are ridiculous. I'm a sorcerer with maximum-ish cost reduction (7/7 light armour, seducer set, almost 8% reduction from Champion Points) and 2050 magicka regen (2400+ when under the effect of a magicka potion).

You can't spam Bolt Escape indefinitely. You really can't. The cost goes up to 3000 magicka when the 50% increased cost penalty is in effect. And a sorcerer who specs for maximum sustainability to be able to cast Bolt Escape as much as possible just won't hit as hard as claimed here. Not even close. It's all about trade-offs.

dietlime

Zhoyzu wrote: »

When people complain about BE they are really telling you they dont know how to play the game. If you potato forever just to kill a sorc who is BE-ing thats your own fault.

People act like sorcs are the only class that can shield stack.... Really!?!
Cause its not like you cant stack healing ward annulment/immovable/shuffle and blazing shield/wings/blur/ or cleave/defensive posture/blade cloak. yea thats definitely not happening anywhere but on sorcs.


Im still waiting for someone to come over this topic that posses some logic and a not so narrow view on the matter.

As it stands its a learn to play issue for you.
LEARN TO PLAY

This is SO true. They only have so much stamina to cast breakouts, and escaping costs mana. Bolt Escape sorcs are my favorite v14 target as a v5 nightblade because usually when I catch them so do a dozen other people.

AltusVenifus

Frawr wrote: »

Op, post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Baiting]

Not even close to fact... WB on shield with pure weapon damage build hits for 8.6... Ambush 5k... surprise 7k... snipe same as WB...

Julianos

i played with all classes and sorc is OP in every way fortunatly i dont pvp cos of cyrodiil lag. They have endless magicka endless mobility and awsome defensive abilities + damage like a joke i stopped playing with my sorc cos i felt like i was cheating

heystreethawk

Holy cow!


I thought you said "orc"

C0pp3rhead

Frawr wrote: »

Op, post facts not rhetoric.

My conjured ward is about 13K.
- wrecking blow hits for 10k-- 20k
- Ambush hits for 11k
- surprise attack hits for 9k- 11k
- Snipe hits for 8k- 11k

It's perfectly possible that:
- 2 wrecking blows kill me
- 2 snipes with light attacks kill me
- ambush and surprise attack kills me (might take 2 surprise attacks!!)

...and you want to nerf my shield AND my escape.

This is a l2p issue.

Hit the nail on the head. Sorcs may be able to Bolt Escape till the cows come home, but most NB's can Cloak up an sneak off. Crystal Frags does not hit that hard. It has a cast time, but if you're lucky it has no cast time. Wrecking Blow has a negligible cast time, is uninterruptable, and hits just as hard.

Most Sorcs are incredibly squishy under their wards - one or two decent attacks will strip them of their shields. Once the shield is gone, stun/CC them, and you'll tear through their light armor and tiny health pools in no time. 1v1 is all about sustaining your own resource pools while wearing theirs down. Sorc's are generally weak in the stamina department.

On the subject of Overload and Crystal Frags:

I dunno about you, but when I see a lightning bolt or big purple bullet the size of my head, I block.
My Argonian Templar Healer has a pathetic HP pool, but I usually have enough stamina to dodge roll that stuff. If you're still having problems, consider various ways to increase your spell resistance, such as nirnhoned. If you're getting knocked down all the time, you should slot Immovable or buy some immovable potions. I couldn't imagine stepping foot into Cyrodiil without one of those.

Like @Frawr said, this is a L2P issue. I'm tired of seeing threads like these.

Spangla

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

The OP is obviously a PvP player, Sorc is NOT OP IN PvE, in fact it's finally so close to being viable as a competitive DPS class. Just like Templar was before some PvP'ers cried about jabs and radiant destruction, placing Templar last once again in the dps race. Do what you want in PvP, just please don't nerf PvE Sorc into the ground because of PvP complaints.

Templers should be last in the dps race they are hands down the best healers.... Why would they also have comparable dps

Spangla

Spangla wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

The OP is obviously a PvP player, Sorc is NOT OP IN PvE, in fact it's finally so close to being viable as a competitive DPS class. Just like Templar was before some PvP'ers cried about jabs and radiant destruction, placing Templar last once again in the dps race. Do what you want in PvP, just please don't nerf PvE Sorc into the ground because of PvP complaints.

Templers should be last in the dps race they are hands down the best healers.... Why would they also have comparable dps

The pvp problems - ward and bol have no relevance in pve regarding dps.

So...

Merlin13KAGL

The ignorance about how things work (or rather how they don't) is growing exponentially.

I think there should be a requirement in place that you have to have X hours playing the class and a minimum level to prove it (crafting for 240 hours doesn't count, OP, sorry.) before you're able to request a nerf of anything.

The short version (which most already know) is that it's harder to get Spell Damage to the level of Weapon Damage, albeit for potentially valid reasons. To adjust for this, higher Magicka pools are usually required and higher regen/lower skill costs (translated to Light Armor, translated to lower resistances). Add to Magicka, takes away from Health.

To compensate for health and lower resistance, shields are put in place.

You want to remove shields (1/2 of the Sorc's OP argument), give us a way to come close to Weapon Damage values without resorting to an Ultimate to do so.

Want to lower BoL usage, give at least a fail percentage to the reflect skills in the game that instantly invalidate 50% of Sorc attacks, including an Ult from the Mage's Guild.

No one takes issue with the fact that you can tack on Reflect everything in mid-battle, but they have issue with Sorc's being able to shield and compensate for lower health/lower resist.

Reflect invalidates projectiles, so does BoL.

People are trying to disable an entire class based on a handful of min/max builds that are not the norm.

Shields are there because you can't match the survivability of the other classes/builds without them.

Magicka is stacked because you can't match the Damage values of other classes without it.

BoL is the 'escape' of choice because of the ability of other classes/weapon lines to reflect magicka projectiles.

Put us on equal ground with the other classes/skill lines in that respect and those two major complaints won't be necessary anymore.

Makkir

This is so silly. Someone gets killed by a sorc and it's OP time.

You can't have the best of both worlds.

As a Sorc you either give up survivability and endless Majicka for Glass Cannon (top dmg) or you sacrifice dmg (big dmg) for survivability.

eserras7b16_ESO

Okei i don't know about PvP...

But man seriously do you do hardcore PvE content at all? They're NOT OverPowered. No discussion there. Can't Tank as good as any Templar/DK. Can't heal as good as a Templar. And the DPS is just ok, they can do a lot of DPS but nothing the others classes can.

xSkullfox

This post is for Mr. & Ms NERF :

STOP OP TIME lol

Makkir wrote: »

This is so silly. Someone gets killed by a sorc and it's OP time.

You can't have the best of both worlds.

As a Sorc you either give up survivability and endless Majicka for Glass Cannon (top dmg) or you sacrifice dmg (big dmg) for survivability.

100% agree ,

// comment: the sorc is a class where you need some skill not like dk where you press 3 keys ...
if you mastered it you like booom 25k life ,25k mag and a single T.dps of 10k+ like me bäääm

AND EVERY CLASS CAN GET 10K DPS with the right gear and skills, yes i know not everybody wants to wear xyz and play with the yxz skill but then DONT CRY if you get FU***D up in pvp when you wearing sh** armor and using false skills.

the endless crying nerf nerf nerf nerf, dk, nerf tpl, nerf nb, nerf sc, S.U.C.K.S. this thread made my day

i recommend L2P their class to be competetive ( omg yes this is possible ) or change the game( i recommend for you guys hello kitty world )

dRudE

Sorcs have had a rough time in ESO, just like all classes. Remember how pathetic nightblades were at release? yeah exactly.

What people need to start remembering is that for a good 6 months, sorcs were the ONLY class to receive several severe nerfs(vamp nerfs included since it provides useful magicka passives), while temps and nightblades(werewolf) got buffed and eventually DK's got nerfed.

I only really play 1 character, a sorc! I have a few sub 50 alts but nothing special. Now to the point, I have been getting 1 shot all day, everyday the past 6 months by any class using a bow and snipe. I expect this as I am a 7/7 light armor wearing sorc and hadn't used a single shield until a few days ago, but you didn't see me coming on here and moaning did you? Everyday i tweaked my build, asked questions in game, farmed my ass off to get everything i needed, and rolled a few alts to get a feel for what I'm fighting. I can safely say I'm starting to get happier with my sorc in pvp and pve now, finally my dps class is doing okish dps and I am being valued by my team mates, for the first time really since launch!

So to the OP, I am in the same boat as you but my problem is nightblades. It doesn't mean i come on here insulting people's classes just because it's a different play style to yours. I give my head a wobble after a little rage quit and work out how to take down those pesky little sneakers!

Every class and subclass in ESO has a counter... You have been warned.

seanvwolf

I am a stam sorc and was chasing down a v14 mag sorc. He had a lot of magicka, but it wasn't enough to endlessly spam blink.

Also, I know for a fact that spamming overloaded light attacks isn't an infinite amount of ultimate generated. There is a huge cost to each light attack done in overload. You can easily protect yourself from an overloaded light attack. It's a reflectable projectile. Use it and overload won't be as much of an issue. Also, you can dodge them since they move at a snail's pace.
Not all Sorc builds are as OP as you are claiming. You just aren't built to defend against them. Happens with class build homogeneity in the player community.

If you were a dodge and reflect DK medium armor tank with nirnhoned gear and lightning resists, blink and overload Sorc wouldn't be OP at all to you. They'd probably be the easiest enemy to fight against.

X3ina

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Okei i don't know about PvP...

But man seriously do you do hardcore PvE content at all? They're NOT OverPowered. No discussion there. Can't Tank as good as any Templar/DK. Can't heal as good as a Templar. And the DPS is just ok, they can do a lot of DPS but nothing the others classes can.

Hmmm... actually they can And they will .... someday

melodeath

i love how all of a sudden every sorc in the game turned into a pro gamer..

xSkullfox

ben_ESO5

Well, I will say that PvE sorcs are strong enough to do this. Pretty impressive actually, and kinda breaks ZoS's whole intent on a "trial boss" lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

Now, granted, this doesn't mean he's doing the biggest DPS, which seems to be the main argument for most PvE sorcs that feel their underpowered. But that ward + pets + magica up the whatsit....wow!

Joy_Division

^^^
Clannfear OP

Merlin13KAGL

ben_ESO5 wrote: »

Well, I will say that PvE sorcs are strong enough to do this. Pretty impressive actually, and kinda breaks ZoS's whole intent on a "trial boss" lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

Now, granted, this doesn't mean he's doing the biggest DPS, which seems to be the main argument for most PvE sorcs that feel their underpowered. But that ward....wow!

Not downing the achievement, by any means. However, @ben_ESO5 , you realize that this is a min/max specific build and hardly representative of the typical Sorc, right?

(You'll also notice there is no video before or after, so this is likely where is stops. I find it doubtful that he solo'd the Flame Atro's or even the mobs solo and there is little fear of danger in this fight so long as you make it to the safe spot each time.)

This is the exception, not the rule.

ben_ESO5

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Not downing the achievement, by any means. However, @ben_ESO5 , you realize that this is a min/max specific build and hardly representative of the typical Sorc, right?

Of course @Merlin13KAGL . But the purpose of the post is that I believe it speaks to the original point made by the OP -- sorc balance is way off, and a few poorly designed skills allow for a min/max build that is capable of pretty much breaking the game (both PvE and PvP). No class should be able to do this...ever!

Don't get me wrong though, both sides of the discussion show balance problems, and I think that easily gets forgotten in the middle of the argument.

Dennizon

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Just as the title states, sorcerers are extremely overpowered in PvP and pve right now.

If they changed around a couple skills they would be more in balance with the rest of the classes.

Ball of lightning needs to be nerfed. A sorc with endless magicka can simply run away from EVERY fight
My suggestion would be to halve the radius of the escape from 20m to 10m.

Nerf the class based shield conjured ward. It grants too much of a damage shield and can be stacked with other shields
Maybe cut it back to around a 7k damage shield not a 10k+

Crystal fragments does way too much damage and on top of that it is a stun
I can get crystal frags right now to hit for 20k + with the correct sets and buffs up on a target

Powered overload shouldn't be able to be charged up to 1000 then endlessly spammed for 12k non crit and 20k+ critical hits

These are my suggestions.

I currently run a sorc and a dk at v14 and the sorcerer is a lot better than my dk

[Moderator Note: Edited title to better align with the discussion]

Being able to infinitely port away in pvp is indeed overpowered. The damage shields are also an issue, but the single issue I see that needs addressing is the ridiculous porting. As it is a sorc can port away from an entire zerg, while turning around periodically and dealing damage still. I am not speaking about pve here, simply pvp.

Merlin13KAGL

ben_ESO5 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Not downing the achievement, by any means. However, @ben_ESO5 , you realize that this is a min/max specific build and hardly representative of the typical Sorc, right?

Of course @Merlin13KAGL . But the purpose of the post is that I believe it speaks to the original point made by the OP -- sorc balance is way off, and a few poorly designed skills allow for a min/max build that is capable of pretty much breaking the game (both PvE and PvP). No class should be able to do this...ever!

Don't get me wrong though, both sides of the discussion show balance problems, and I think that easily gets forgotten in the middle of the argument.

And you believe they are the only class that can do this? You've not seen extreme builds from other classes be able to solo unsoloable circumstances?

C'mon.

If taking exceptional builds (builds that are the exception) and using them to support any class as OP, then every class is OP.

People will always find the way to get the absolute most from a combination. When that combination becomes the standard, then you can say it's OP.

Sorc's die in PvP every day. If they didn't, I'd still be at 0/20 on my kill quest.

Dennizon wrote: »

Being able to infinitely port away in pvp is indeed overpowered. simply not possible.

Fixed it for you.

Specific builds/set ups will be able to outresource other builds/setups. Big difference from 'infinite.'

Willing to bet you can out Stamina that same Sorc, and I don't even know what build you have.

Different point placement does not OP make.

Dennizon

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

ben_ESO5 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Not downing the achievement, by any means. However, @ben_ESO5 , you realize that this is a min/max specific build and hardly representative of the typical Sorc, right?

Of course @Merlin13KAGL . But the purpose of the post is that I believe it speaks to the original point made by the OP -- sorc balance is way off, and a few poorly designed skills allow for a min/max build that is capable of pretty much breaking the game (both PvE and PvP). No class should be able to do this...ever!

Don't get me wrong though, both sides of the discussion show balance problems, and I think that easily gets forgotten in the middle of the argument.

And you believe they are the only class that can do this? You've not seen extreme builds from other classes be able to solo unsoloable circumstances?

C'mon.

If taking exceptional builds (builds that are the exception) and using them to support any class as OP, then every class is OP.

People will always find the way to get the absolute most from a combination. When that combination becomes the standard, then you can say it's OP.

Sorc's die in PvP every day. If they didn't, I'd still be at 0/20 on my kill quest.

Dennizon wrote: »

Being able to infinitely port away in pvp is indeed overpowered. simply not possible.

Fixed it for you.

Specific builds/set ups will be able to outresource other builds/setups. Big difference from 'infinite.'

Willing to bet you can out Stamina that same Sorc, and I don't even know what build you have.

Different point placement does not OP make.

Split hairs if you wish, but most understand figures of speech. If you play pvp, as a sorc that doesn't spend time porting away from fights, then you understand my point and have no need to try and defend an overpowered feature.