Nightblade - Shadow - Passive: Shadow Barrier tooltip makes NO sense.

Celless

I don't feel like Shadow Barrier is superior to say the Dragon Knight and Templar options. With their block mitigation and spell resist passives, they also gain access to Major Ward and Major Resolve effects through other means and a damage absorption shield. Somewhere, something is going to take up a slot on our bars for this.

For PvE purposes, I'm mostly okay with Shadow Barrier being something that favors heavy armor instead of being only useful when stealth/invisibility ended or the possible alternative where duration is increased for each shadow ability slotted.

As long as many class passives in general lean toward one play style more than another, this seems balanced to me. In that, a light armor staff Templar or DK isn't going to benefit as much from block mitigation bonus as the tank that gets hit regularly would.

In general, would like more types of passives to affect more types of play styles, e.g. Assassination's Executioner to restore stamina / magicka for the Killer Blade, stamina Death Strokers, and stamina Assassin Willers. Or Hemorrhage to provide benefit to magicka using allies instead of just Minor Savagery for physical attackers.

I'm incoherent.

WraithAzraiel

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Actually.. From what I see... Only nb has the passives that increases both armor and spell resistances.. while the rest has only spell resistance.

Not too sure of which passives you are talking here. Wouldnt that mean nb has a far superior defensive passive?

Right but those other classes have active mitigation abilities. Like Spiked Armor for DK's Conjured Ward for Sorcs and whatever morphs into Blazing Shield for Templars. NB doesn't have, to my knowledge, a skill that increases defenses or gives a damage shield.

Shunravi

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Actually.. From what I see... Only nb has the passives that increases both armor and spell resistances.. while the rest has only spell resistance.

Not too sure of which passives you are talking here. Wouldnt that mean nb has a far superior defensive passive?

Right but those other classes have active mitigation abilities. Like Spiked Armor for DK's Conjured Ward for Sorcs and whatever morphs into Blazing Shield for Templars. NB doesn't have, to my knowledge, a skill that increases defenses or gives a damage shield.

Except for every single shadow ability.....

RavenSworn

Mirage: increases armor and dodge chance of 20%

Cloak: in itself can mitigate damage in pve.

Shadow Image: a flat reduction of 15% damage.

All shadow abilities with the passive allows the bonus mitigation to work.

WraithAzraiel

Shunravi wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Actually.. From what I see... Only nb has the passives that increases both armor and spell resistances.. while the rest has only spell resistance.

Not too sure of which passives you are talking here. Wouldnt that mean nb has a far superior defensive passive?

Right but those other classes have active mitigation abilities. Like Spiked Armor for DK's Conjured Ward for Sorcs and whatever morphs into Blazing Shield for Templars. NB doesn't have, to my knowledge, a skill that increases defenses or gives a damage shield.

Except for every single shadow ability.....

Incorrect. Unless you're referring to the 4 second boost given by the Shadow Barrier passive, which is laughable. The only thing remotely close to any kind of worthwhile mitigation is Mirage, and that's an Assassination skill.

At best, you can maybe spin Dark Cloak for it's DoT removal, if it works. Or MAYBE MAYBE Shadow Image, which reduces the targets attack power, not increasing your damage mitigation.

It's not good enough. Still feels like we're holding the bad end of the damage mitigation stick. Save for the select few that are built to stack shields and leech health.

Shunravi

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Actually.. From what I see... Only nb has the passives that increases both armor and spell resistances.. while the rest has only spell resistance.

Not too sure of which passives you are talking here. Wouldnt that mean nb has a far superior defensive passive?

Right but those other classes have active mitigation abilities. Like Spiked Armor for DK's Conjured Ward for Sorcs and whatever morphs into Blazing Shield for Templars. NB doesn't have, to my knowledge, a skill that increases defenses or gives a damage shield.

Except for every single shadow ability.....

Incorrect. Unless you're referring to the 4 second boost given by the Shadow Barrier passive, which is laughable. The only thing remotely close to any kind of worthwhile mitigation is Mirage, and that's an Assassination skill.

At best, you can maybe spin Dark Cloak for it's DoT removal, if it works. Or MAYBE MAYBE Shadow Image, which reduces the targets attack power, not increasing your damage mitigation.

It's not good enough. Still feels like we're holding the bad end of the damage mitigation stick. Save for the select few that are built to stack shields and leech health.

Why yes I am refering to the passive that you started this thread about. The very one that can trigger on the activation of any skill in its skill line instead of just being a single skill. The same passive that grants the same buff as say, spiked armor, but for five abilities instead of one.

For the record, I'm on the fence about your topic. The merit of an argument is how well it stands up to criticism.

WraithAzraiel

A lot of the people that flat out disagree wrongly assume that the changes I suggested would make DPS OP. So far no one has been able to explain to me just how that would happen.

I don't count their lack of reasonable support to their disagreements as criticism. It's just noise at this point.

TheBull

Yeah OP. It was a huge NB nerf.

TheBull

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

Glad I just happen to have 2 pieces of HA on..

I can't help but wonder if some folks don't understand the passive, and that this post originated because of it.

The bonus occurs for 4 seconds for all armor types, when you activate a shadow ability. When you have Heavy Armor it gets a bonus duration. Wearing no heavy armor at all, or no armor period, walking around stark naked, you will get the 4 second defensive boost every time you activate a shadow ability.

Oh I get it. Just saying, happy to get a little bit extra because I happen to have 2 HA on.
Also I think OP is saying it's a bit stupid to tie a passive like this to HA in the first place.

No other class has a passive that blatantly says it's in any way affected by the wearing of a certain type of armor. I believe the requirement of Heavy Armor to receive a % of a second bonus to a passive's timer to be completely arbitrary and unnecessary.

It's dumb, it makes no sense. Don't get me wrong, it's GREAT that its so awesome for NB tanks who apparently for some reason have such problems with resource management. (Effective tanks wouldn't have this problem if they were spec'd and built correctly as tanks and utilized food or drink whilst tanking.)

And I can't see how or why people would defend the way this passive currently is with warnings of it becoming OP if everyone was allowed to use it.

In this case, "because it would" isn't a good enough reason for me.

The accuse that because no other class has this is not a valid excuse because night blades do not have a damage shield for the class personally. You are saying that is does not make sense but it does.
It makes sense because obliviously Zos wanted the skill to have a bonus for heavy armor users. Not light or medium because these armors by themselves are good without this passive. A lot people complain about how bad heavy armor is or that it did not have a use. Now we have a skill that makes heavy armor a little useful. They wanted to make tanking for nightblades a little more useful. Saying that is stupid or unnecessary is basically unnecessary because Zos wanted this change in the game.

Adding the bonus for heavy armor is fine and makes since. They shouldn't have removed the base skill bonus that's been there since launch though. It used to carry on for 4 seconds after cloak wore off. As things stand it's completely useless unless you ware heavy armor...

Shunravi

TheBull wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

cavakthestampede wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

Glad I just happen to have 2 pieces of HA on..

I can't help but wonder if some folks don't understand the passive, and that this post originated because of it.

The bonus occurs for 4 seconds for all armor types, when you activate a shadow ability. When you have Heavy Armor it gets a bonus duration. Wearing no heavy armor at all, or no armor period, walking around stark naked, you will get the 4 second defensive boost every time you activate a shadow ability.

Oh I get it. Just saying, happy to get a little bit extra because I happen to have 2 HA on.
Also I think OP is saying it's a bit stupid to tie a passive like this to HA in the first place.

No other class has a passive that blatantly says it's in any way affected by the wearing of a certain type of armor. I believe the requirement of Heavy Armor to receive a % of a second bonus to a passive's timer to be completely arbitrary and unnecessary.

It's dumb, it makes no sense. Don't get me wrong, it's GREAT that its so awesome for NB tanks who apparently for some reason have such problems with resource management. (Effective tanks wouldn't have this problem if they were spec'd and built correctly as tanks and utilized food or drink whilst tanking.)

And I can't see how or why people would defend the way this passive currently is with warnings of it becoming OP if everyone was allowed to use it.

In this case, "because it would" isn't a good enough reason for me.

The accuse that because no other class has this is not a valid excuse because night blades do not have a damage shield for the class personally. You are saying that is does not make sense but it does.
It makes sense because obliviously Zos wanted the skill to have a bonus for heavy armor users. Not light or medium because these armors by themselves are good without this passive. A lot people complain about how bad heavy armor is or that it did not have a use. Now we have a skill that makes heavy armor a little useful. They wanted to make tanking for nightblades a little more useful. Saying that is stupid or unnecessary is basically unnecessary because Zos wanted this change in the game.

Adding the bonus for heavy armor is fine and makes since. They shouldn't have removed the base skill bonus that's been there since launch though. It used to carry on for 4 seconds after cloak wore off. As things stand it's completely useless unless you ware heavy armor...

or use a veild strike morph in your rotation....

Celless

Okay, I'll bite. Maybe you mentioned this somewhere, but are you talking PvE or PvP?

What Shadow skills are you currently using when you're in light armor or medium armor? The main issue I see is if you open from stealth without Veiled or Concealed if you want 1.5 behavior. Else, you're either using those skills often enough that this isn't an issue or you don't use the skill for the barrier specifically, in which case, there's no issue.

How often do you get hit so hard that you wished you had Major Ward or Major Resolve? If the answer is all the time and you're not in heavy armor, then no, mitigation is not as important to you as the benefits of light and medium armor are to your playstyle. I no longer support this pitch for light armor and medium armor having this with this in mind.

RavenSworn

Celless wrote: »

Okay, I'll bite. Maybe you mentioned this somewhere, but are you talking PvE or PvP?

What Shadow skills are you currently using when you're in light armor or medium armor? The main issue I see is if you open from stealth without Veiled or Concealed if you want 1.5 behavior. Else, you're either using those skills often enough that this isn't an issue or you don't use the skill for the barrier specifically, in which case, there's no issue.

How often do you get hit so hard that you wished you had Major Ward or Major Resolve? If the answer is all the time and you're not in heavy armor, then no, mitigation is not as important to you as the benefits of light and medium armor are to your playstyle. I no longer support this pitch for light armor and medium armor having this with this in mind.

Well said. Which is why the passive seems to be better with the heavy armor because in a perfect battle scenario, as a nb, you shouldn't be hit upon as often as a melee dragonknight per se, and you should be crit-ing more often than not in medium or light armor.

Which then makes this passive which procs on all shadow abilities slightly stronger than other similar passives from the other classes.

Damage avoidance should be the name of the game for nb.

Athas24

No passive in Class Skill line should Ever be tied to 1 specific armor or weapon (unless there are accommodations for each such as increasing crit for daggers, damage for swords, dots on 2h etc). This limits play style and is the opposite of what ESO said they wanted to accomplish by playing however your style is. The ability may be great but to limit a solid portion of its benefits is short sighted. I would be mad if it were something I saw in my Sorcerer or DarkKnight Class Skill lines also. The Op has a valid concern IMO

cavakthestampede

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

cavakthestampede wrote: »

This would provide too great a defensive bonus to medium and light armor wearers who have arguably better resource management tools are their disposal.

However, in PvE tanking the bonus is a necessary one for Nightblade tanks to be as effective at tanking. If this bonus were available in its full (read: Heavy Armor boosted) duration to the other two armor types it would definitely skew the survival ability of DPS Nightblades in PvE and PvP.

You may not agree with it, and based on your post you don't. However, you are wrong. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

Oh did I touch a nerve? What the hell makes you the authority on quality of opinions and ideas?

You have a right to disagree with me, but offer more evidence than, "No it's OP BAH HUMBUG, your opinion sucks and so do you!"

I'm all for being proven wrong. But so far everyone who has disagreed with me in this thread has failed to provide enough evidence to do so, and you're no different.

What's so bad about making people more survivable for a few extra seconds?
Would that damage your kill/death ratio in PvP so badly?

No not even, as the current tooltip stands, it's a percentage of 4 seconds.

What's so bad about giving that same % of 4 second bonus to anyone wearing at least 5 pieces of one type of armor?

How much of a difference could it possibly make to affect the whole of gameplay, both in PvE and PvP negatively?

What's the harm in giving NB DPS a little extra oomph in the way of survivability?

What's the disadvantage of having an NB DPS in your Dungeon or Trial group that can stay alive just a LITTLE bit better and take just a LITTLE bit of strain off of healers while they DPS their target?

How exactly would it make them OverPowered?

Lay it all out step by step, reasonably and without the hurling of insults as your type are wont to do, and I'll concede the point and ask that this thread be deleted.

/end rant?

I offered evidence which you ignored, namely that resource generation is greater for non-tanks, allowing them to keep the passive up too easily to give it too great a duration. You focused on the personal attack, which was offered in the heart of levity.

Your choice to focus on that and throw a temper tantrum is telling. The burden of proof is on you. Prove that its a necessary change. Prove that its so broken we need devs to take another look at it, and possibly decide to change it completely and ruin what is currently considered by most of the community to be a balanced passive.

Or continue to spew vitriol and take yourself so seriously one could believe you are arguing over human rights in a third world country.

I guess I forgot for a second I was on the internet.

Celless

Athas24 wrote: »

No passive in Class Skill line should Ever be tied to 1 specific armor or weapon (unless there are accommodations for each such as increasing crit for daggers, damage for swords, dots on 2h etc). This limits play style and is the opposite of what ESO said they wanted to accomplish by playing however your style is. The ability may be great but to limit a solid portion of its benefits is short sighted. I would be mad if it were something I saw in my Sorcerer or DarkKnight Class Skill lines also. The Op has a valid concern IMO

There are issues with class passives all over the place only benefitting one play style. They all should be revisited to support more play styles. Not just Shadow Barrier, which at least works in light and medium.

RavenSworn

Now I dont know what zen are thinking nor do I know what their plans are for this class.

However we do know that in terms of armor usage, light armor = spellcasting bonuses, medium armor = physical damage bonuses and heavy armor = damage mitigation bonuses.

Now we also know that most players will either 1) 5/2 armor ratio 2) 5/1/1 armor ratio. There will be those who use other ratios but optimally, these two are main choices. Even as tanks, that ratio does not change much, since you want optimal damage mitigation coupled with set bonuses and either stamina recovery on medium or magicka recovery on light.

Shadow barrier is a damage mitigation passive which means the best armor for mitigation is heavy. And since you do use heavy armor in some form or another, this passive will be better off with heavy armor linked to its bonus effect.

WraithAzraiel

Celless wrote: »

Okay, I'll bite. Maybe you mentioned this somewhere, but are you talking PvE or PvP?

What Shadow skills are you currently using when you're in light armor or medium armor? The main issue I see is if you open from stealth without Veiled or Concealed if you want 1.5 behavior. Else, you're either using those skills often enough that this isn't an issue or you don't use the skill for the barrier specifically, in which case, there's no issue.

How often do you get hit so hard that you wished you had Major Ward or Major Resolve? If the answer is all the time and you're not in heavy armor, then no, mitigation is not as important to you as the benefits of light and medium armor are to your playstyle. I no longer support this pitch for light armor and medium armor having this with this in mind.

Oh I'm not having a problem that warrants changing this. I just noticed something in tooltip of which I couldn't make sense. No other class passive specifically requires a certain weight of armor for any reason.

And binding that bonus to Heavy Armor made no sense to me.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

It actually better since any shadow skill causes the passive to activate. The problem you are seeing is the fact that it activates ON activation of the skill. Pre 1.6 the passive would activate after coming out of stealth, apparently ZoS couldn't figure out how to make it so all shadow skills activate the passive but keep the way cloak and the passive worked the same. Honestly I am not to worried about it.

WraithAzraiel

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually better since any shadow skill causes the passive to activate. The problem you are seeing is the fact that it activates ON activation of the skill. Pre 1.6 the passive would activate after coming out of stealth, apparently ZoS couldn't figure out how to make it so all shadow skills activate the passive but keep the way cloak and the passive worked the same. Honestly I am not to worried about it.

I'm not saying there's a problem with how the passive works. That's awesome. It's fine. It's great. It's fantastic. Any activation of any shadow skill. Phenomenal.

What I don't agree with is the time bonus applied to the length of the increase to armor and spell resist being bound to how many pieces of Heavy Armor you're wearing.

I get that it's great for NB tanks, that's awesome. But the fact that it's bound to 1 armor type seems, to me, to be too focused. Too particular. Too niche.

The changes I've suggested would open that time bonus up to the rest of Nightblades - DPS and Healers. And the suggested change is minimal enough, until someone can SHOW me otherwise, as to not greatly tip the scales of battle in favor of those NB DPS and Heals in PvP and JUST nice enough to provide NB DPS and Heals just a liiiiiiittle bit of relief whilst engaging in PvE.

I get it, someone said NB tanks apparently have terrible resource management because NB and this is the only thing that alleviates that. I refuse to believe that's the only solid reason that this passive's bonus should remain how it is now. ESPECIALLY since those NB tanks wouldn't be losing their bonus at all.

RavenSworn

Its not the only solid reason for the passive. Its a bonus duration, it would have to be balanced with something that would make this passive worthwhile.

Thus tying the bonus duration with heavy armor makes perfect sense since heavy armor gives the best mitigation bonuses to the player.

Giving it a flat addition amount would only lead to worsening balancing issues which frankly speaking, nb do not need at this present time.

Both magicka and stamina nb dps use mainly 5m/2h or 5L/2h armor ratios for optimum results. Tanks uses 5h/2m for most parts. So why pray tell would I want to change something that currently helps all forms of roles for the NB?

WraithAzraiel

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

Its not the only solid reason for the passive. Its a bonus duration, it would have to be balanced with something that would make this passive worthwhile.

Thus tying the bonus duration with heavy armor makes perfect sense since heavy armor gives the best mitigation bonuses to the player.

Giving it a flat addition amount would only lead to worsening balancing issues which frankly speaking, nb do not need at this present time.

Both magicka and stamina nb dps use mainly 5m/2h or 5L/2h armor ratios for optimum results. Tanks uses 5h/2m for most parts. So why pray tell would I want to change something that currently helps all forms of roles for the NB?

What worsening balances issues could possibly arise from a DPS or healer having 5-6 seconds of extra protection after activating a shadow ability as opposed to 4 seconds? Or however long of a bonus those NB tanks with 5 Heavy 2 Medium get.

Walk me through how it would break the game. Use pictures and math, so the kids can understand.

RavenSworn

An artist I am not nor an engineer will I be so I have to apologize for not using any pictures or math.

But i will try to use reason and a logical approach to this conundrum as all adults are prone to do.

Shadow barrier: gives major resolve and major ward upon activation of a shadow skill, up to 8000 spell resistance and armor for 4 seconds. The duration is increased for each heavy armor you are wearing.

The one passive I can see which is similar to this one is the dragonknight's draconic power passive: scaled armor.

It gives the player a spell resistance of 2500. A flat increase, regardless of activation of any skill. Since it is a constant increase, it's amount is lower than the amount given to shadow barrier, which while has an amt 3x of scaled armor, needs activation of a shadow skill. Thus, balance.

Now if this passive were to receive a bonus duration, it needs to be tied to a drawback, but one that does not seem pervasive to the overall class performance. Hence my reasoning on armor ratios which while heavy armor is mainly used by tanks, it is still used for added survivability for dps and heals.

Now this passive is also tied with the shadow skill line which includes one of the class defining skill: cloak. It stops casting, drops the targetting of said player. it is a form of damage mitigation since it stops the enemy albeit briefly from damaging you, the player. So what better armor to tie it with than heavy armor, which has the highest armor value in game? With bonuses to health recovery as well?

Now if we were to change that passive to a flat time of 6 seconds upon activation, then what happens is that now, the passive will in effect be 'up' in each battle for the whole duration of the fight. Given that cloak is not an offensive skill per se, concealed weapon is.

It means that the player will have this passive up for the whole duration of the fight, which will mean that scaled armor, hell even iron skin will be below par compared to this passive when you take into acct that shadow image which takes 15% reduced damage on the player, is on the shadow skill line as well.

Some mob fights dont even last 5secs let alone a full min. Thus, the reason for binding the ability to heavy armor.

WraithAzraiel

Outstanding. That's exactly what I asked for, thank you.

F7sus4

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

It's for NB tanks. That's nice, peanut. What I'm saying is removing the Heavy Armor requirement for the bonus time wouldn't damage it at all and wouldn't pigeonhole the passive.

Not really a requirement. Having appropriate amount of Heavy Armor pieces just makes this bonus last longer, but you get it with both Light and Medium Armor as well.

shane.roberts25b14_ESO

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Furthermore, what the hell is so OP about a couple extra seconds of a buff that's already given?

Why is it SO ABSOLUTELY necessary for it to ONLY be viable with NB tanks?

Because everyone is still suffering from PTSD caused by pre 1.6 assassin build Nightblades that could attack you out of stealth, kill you in 2-3 hits, and gtfo before your friends realized what happened ;p I miss those days

Chelo

The passive now is 4s + HA bonus ( probably 5s or 6s for 5 or 7 HA pieces), it is just 4s if you dont use any HA piece. Basicly what the OP is suggesting is removing the HA bonus and give it straight 5s or 6s for any type of armor... Long story short, making the passive op and not intended for taking as it is right now... No thanks...

The bonus time is intended for tanking and just tanking, not dps, not healing, just tanking...

Code2501

I don't see why it needs to change. It's a few seconds difference between light/med vs heavy.

Even in light/med you can easily sustain constant up time with shadow barrier if that's what you really want].
In light or medium you can weave a Surprise Attack or Concealed Weapon into your rotation every 4 seconds easily. These are good skills for decent DPS so there is no reason not to weave them in a build that wants to take advantage of the major ward & major resolve buff.
Yes its a melee range skill, but if your not being pounded on I would argue you don't need it.
If your in an intensive ranged fight whats stopping you from weaving cloaks with paths and shades if you want the buff? Even if you wait the full cloak duration, your buff is still generally going to mitigate the enemies first attack when the cloak drops.

The reason heavy armor gets this tiny bonus is purely because they have slightly poorer resource generation/preservation via armor passives, hence they need to space out their shadow spells more. This minor bonus of at most a few seconds is only there so a defensive passive does not work worse for heavy armor wearers than it does for light/medium, period.

Hlaadriel

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I'm not saying it isn't useful. I'm saying it's unreasonable to bind it to *1* armor type.

So basically you could not understand the wording.
The passive applies to ALL types of armor for x seconds. It is not bound to heavy armor at all.
Passive applies to all type of armor for in your case 4s. It will last longer if you wear heavy armor. that's all.

jvh808

I see both sides of this argument... The issue I have with it is the fact the passive is in the Shadow skill line... Shadow skills should never have a bonus that is applicable to wearing heavy armor, due to the fact that it is clunky, loud, and restricts mobility... This passive should be in the Siphoning tree if it applied to only heavy armor. But a way to fix it without creating too much of a stir, I think, would be having different bonuses applied based on the armor type worn (keep the minimum required at 5 pieces).

Observant

How is there even a two sided debate to this?

It's a class skill with an Armor requirement... wut?
OK LEMME JUST DELETE MY MEDIUM ARMOR KHAJIIT NB AND REROLL.
or not.

Why does heavy armor need any more Armor anyways?