Thoughts on Legerdemain
ThePonzzz
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I'm sure someone made one of these posts already, but having slowly mastered the skill, I figured I'd share a few thoughts.
Overall, the skill line is fun. Being a pickpocket can find some interesting items. Looting safeboxes can really take casing out an area, which was probably the most thrilling portion of the skill line. And most of all, you can make a lot of gold. Some things feel off though.
Pickpocketing - The risk vs. reward isn't there. I've heard some people say they've found purple motifs, but I've not seen it in any easy or medium mark, which are the only two you have a guarantee of looting after mastering the skill line. That means taking the chance on hard marks. So using a sample size of 100 hard marks with a 90% chance of being successful (always waiting from the 70% chance), I was caught 47 times, and never found anything over blue quality. Marks are unlimited with travel, but it's very slow.
Armor/Weapon Stealing - The risk is extremely low with much higher rewards than pickpocketing. Finding gear worth 40 to 60g each is very easy, and you can easily make 5000g a day doing this. You can also do this within maybe 10 to 15 minutes.
Looting Containers - Another very low risk with much higher rewards. Mostly you'll get ingredients, but finding a decent recipe or motif is much more possible than pickpocketing.
Safebox Cracking - Probably the most fun in thieving right now, but box difficulty doesn't translate to item quality. Most master and advanced safeboxes seem pretty light or comparable to simple and intermediate. Competing with other players for safeboxes also can be problematic, but nothing severe.
Trespassing - After breaking into a house, the occupants don't sound the alarm. No bounty is incurred when they spot you. Robbing a house is low risk with decent rewards, much better than pickpocketing. Haven't encountered a master-quality locked door, but advanced doors tend to have pretty decent quality loot inside. The majority of all purple items stolen have come from advanced-quality trespassing loot.
Auto-pick - Having this function of the locksmith skill line not offer experience seems off. Players invest 4 skill points into this, only to lose out on something they use to gain. Since nothing is 100% guarantee, the fail rate makes using this function pretty useless in practice.
Achievement Hunting - A number of the achievements seem to be aimed at recklessness. It would be wonderful of some of these achievements would offer more dyes and titles. Cutpurse, footpad, thief, pickpocket, murderer, assassin, safecracker, etc. I know the introduction to the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood can offer these things, but it would be nice to see some more title options. Even for getting 1000 treasure chests (separate from Legerdemain) would be nice to get something like Treasure Hunter. Finding 1000 treasure chests is a lot of work!
Escaping Guards - I understand the need to make guards invincible, but escaping guards should be possible with invisibility potions/spells. It was right after the skill was released, but it seems that was corrected. It shouldn't be just "drink a potion and win" but it should buy you some time to move.
tl;dr - Data shows that pickpocketing is the highest risk with the least rewards. Pickpocketing, especially hard marks, should be some of the highest rewards while stealing, second to safeboxes. As it stands right now, robbing shops in lower level zones is the best way to level the skill line, and can be very lucrative at mid-levels. Safebox lock quality should match the contents. Picking a master safebox in a bank with an immortal guard hovering over you should not get me a few gold and a green drop. Trespassing should have higher risks. And don't punish the players who invest 4 skill points in locksmithing.
Overall, the skill line is fun. Being a pickpocket can find some interesting items. Looting safeboxes can really take casing out an area, which was probably the most thrilling portion of the skill line. And most of all, you can make a lot of gold. Some things feel off though.
Pickpocketing - The risk vs. reward isn't there. I've heard some people say they've found purple motifs, but I've not seen it in any easy or medium mark, which are the only two you have a guarantee of looting after mastering the skill line. That means taking the chance on hard marks. So using a sample size of 100 hard marks with a 90% chance of being successful (always waiting from the 70% chance), I was caught 47 times, and never found anything over blue quality. Marks are unlimited with travel, but it's very slow.
Armor/Weapon Stealing - The risk is extremely low with much higher rewards than pickpocketing. Finding gear worth 40 to 60g each is very easy, and you can easily make 5000g a day doing this. You can also do this within maybe 10 to 15 minutes.
Looting Containers - Another very low risk with much higher rewards. Mostly you'll get ingredients, but finding a decent recipe or motif is much more possible than pickpocketing.
Safebox Cracking - Probably the most fun in thieving right now, but box difficulty doesn't translate to item quality. Most master and advanced safeboxes seem pretty light or comparable to simple and intermediate. Competing with other players for safeboxes also can be problematic, but nothing severe.
Trespassing - After breaking into a house, the occupants don't sound the alarm. No bounty is incurred when they spot you. Robbing a house is low risk with decent rewards, much better than pickpocketing. Haven't encountered a master-quality locked door, but advanced doors tend to have pretty decent quality loot inside. The majority of all purple items stolen have come from advanced-quality trespassing loot.
Auto-pick - Having this function of the locksmith skill line not offer experience seems off. Players invest 4 skill points into this, only to lose out on something they use to gain. Since nothing is 100% guarantee, the fail rate makes using this function pretty useless in practice.
Achievement Hunting - A number of the achievements seem to be aimed at recklessness. It would be wonderful of some of these achievements would offer more dyes and titles. Cutpurse, footpad, thief, pickpocket, murderer, assassin, safecracker, etc. I know the introduction to the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood can offer these things, but it would be nice to see some more title options. Even for getting 1000 treasure chests (separate from Legerdemain) would be nice to get something like Treasure Hunter. Finding 1000 treasure chests is a lot of work!
Escaping Guards - I understand the need to make guards invincible, but escaping guards should be possible with invisibility potions/spells. It was right after the skill was released, but it seems that was corrected. It shouldn't be just "drink a potion and win" but it should buy you some time to move.
tl;dr - Data shows that pickpocketing is the highest risk with the least rewards. Pickpocketing, especially hard marks, should be some of the highest rewards while stealing, second to safeboxes. As it stands right now, robbing shops in lower level zones is the best way to level the skill line, and can be very lucrative at mid-levels. Safebox lock quality should match the contents. Picking a master safebox in a bank with an immortal guard hovering over you should not get me a few gold and a green drop. Trespassing should have higher risks. And don't punish the players who invest 4 skill points in locksmithing.
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Thymos✭✭✭✭✭You don't address that pickpocketing also raises the legerdemain, moreso than just fencing items.
About safeboxes, just because someone can afford a really good locking chest, doesn't mean they actually have something extremely expensive to put into it.
Forcing locks also forfeits the XP gained from picking locks, which raises the legerdemain skill line as well as some general XP.
I escape guards all the time. I made potions that make me immune to Stun/Hold/Knockdowns, as well as boosting my run speed by 40% and restoring stamina in the process. That is my getaway potion for PvP and Guards.Edited by Thymos on April 5, 2015 3:01PMThe Older Gamers Recruitment Thread
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ThePonzzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭You don't address that pickpocketing also raises the legerdemain, moreso than just fencing items.
About safeboxes, just because someone can afford a really good locking chest, doesn't mean they actually have something extremely expensive to put into it.
Forcing locks also forfeits the XP gained from picking locks, which raises the legerdemain skill line as well as some general XP.
I escape guards all the time. I made potions that make me immune to Stun/Hold/Knockdowns, as well as boosting my run speed by 40% and restoring stamina in the process. That is my getaway potion for PvP and Guards.
I'm only addressing things post-mastery.
Yes, gaining inspiration in the skill line is done by all of the above. But pickpocketing doesn't begin to be useful until you've invested that 3rd skill point.
Let's be clear here, I'm not talking about realism of safeboxes. I'm simply stating risk vs. reward. Master boxes are always harder to get into than intermediate. The risk should offer a reward.
Right, forced auto-picking forfeiting exp is a big deal. Why punish the player for investing the points. There is no 100% guarantee either on forced opening, so where is the gain in the 4 skill points?
Ah, never thought of the unstoppable potions. I'll have to look into that.
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Personally, I think the difficulty is right atm, as the skill points put into legerdemain will undoubtedly make it easier in the future. As for rewards, I dont want the rewards to be too consistently good so that everyone would be doing it all the time.
Trespassing - After breaking into a house, the occupants don't sound the alarm. No bounty is incurred when they spot you. Robbing a house is low risk with decent rewards, much better than pickpocketing. Haven't encountered a master-quality locked door, but advanced doors tend to have pretty decent quality loot inside. The majority of all purple items stolen have come from advanced-quality trespassing loot.
I think with inhabitants spotting you while trespassing: imo they should go and find a guard outside, at which point the guard would then come chase you. You could avoid this by killing the civilians or something. Just an idea."Everything you can imagine is real."
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I agree that when you break into a house the homeowners should tell you to get out, then after a few moments the homeowners flee the house to get the nearest guard. The guard returns to protect the homeowner and house. Prior to the homeowner leaving the house the player could kill civilian to prevent any witnesses and guard coming. Alternatively, the player could flee from the house before the guard arrives too... Maybe stealing something close to the door before fleeing.0 -
ThePonzzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBloodartist wrote: »Personally, I think the difficulty is right atm, as the skill points put into legerdemain will undoubtedly make it easier in the future. As for rewards, I dont want the rewards to be too consistently good so that everyone would be doing it all the time.
Trespassing - After breaking into a house, the occupants don't sound the alarm. No bounty is incurred when they spot you. Robbing a house is low risk with decent rewards, much better than pickpocketing. Haven't encountered a master-quality locked door, but advanced doors tend to have pretty decent quality loot inside. The majority of all purple items stolen have come from advanced-quality trespassing loot.
I think with inhabitants spotting you while trespassing: imo they should go and find a guard outside, at which point the guard would then come chase you. You could avoid this by killing the civilians or something. Just an idea.
It's not that I want the rewards to be better throughout. I'm just saying that pickpocketing's reward is too low. I'd rather see looting a shop be less rewarding than stealing from a guard.
I like the idea on trespassing. It should hit you with a bounty the moment caught though so you're now on the guard's watch list.0 -
neueregel✭✭✭Post leveling to 20, there isnt much reward to do anything... So you max the skill and then move on to something else... That was disappointing. The last skill point invested should give you motivation to keep at the skill. I make more gold doing other things than sneaking around and opening locks that have nominal loot, or pickpocketing someone with that same said loot... I still open containers just like I did pre 1.6... but I would have done that regardless.... To me, if you master something, it should still keep you motivated to use that skill. You get no more xp, other than opening locks and the loot still sucks...Are you not entertained?
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