CP System is pushing me away from ESO

krseb17_ESO

Who cares really,

PVP will still be balanced as all three sides have equal amounts of grinders and casuals, PVE is still easy enough to at current CP levels. Yes it gives good passives and stat increases, but the fact that someone else have it and you don't wont interfere with your game in any way outside doing 1v1 duels and no other players come around, i think i can count the times this has happened on one hand.

And for PVE i think "In the future some groups might not want to invite players with less CP" isn't really a good reason enough to start changing thing. Lets deal with it if it happens.

Hortator Mopa

krseb17_ESO wrote: »

Who cares really, PVP will still be balanced as all three sides have equal amounts of grinders and casuals, PVE is still easy enough to at current CP levels. Yes it gives good passives and stat increases, but the fact that someone else have it and you don't wont interfere with your game at any way outside doing 1v1 duels and no other players come around, i think i can count the times this has happened on one hand.

And for PVE i think "In the future some groups might not want to invite players with less CP" isn't really a good reason enough to start changing thing. Lets deal with it if it happens.

Thats the way! Lets do it the human way!

Screw it up now, think about it later!

God bless you.

Elsonso

Wow.

I don't see CP as a grind. I guess the boat left without me.

Since it went live, I have earned 1, maybe 2. I can't remember.

I dislike Cadwell and refuse to quest in enemy zones until I have experienced the zone natively, so my VR does nothing more than farm resources in Craglorn. Most mobs there come in deadly groups at my low VR level. My experience earning work is all 1 to 49.

I earn CP when it happens, usually through opening quite a few chests along the way, along with the odd wasps that I can kill.

krseb17_ESO

But I dont see it screwed up, just people saying it screwed up without being able to formulate why.

"the problem is that some have more cp then me!" - Thats not a problem, just a fact. please formulate *why* this is a problem.

"The problem is it takes so long to grind all of them" - Thats not a problem either, please formulate *why* this is a problem.

"The problem is i wont be able to compete in PVP" - Thats not a problem, this is not a 1v1 game, go fight along team mates if you are to squishy to fight alone

"The problem is that in the future PVE groups will have requirements for dungeons and trials!" - So? some groups have requirements that you have to understand german too. find another group. PVE is doable with todays CP amounts. also this hasn't happened and its just in your mind so far.

Psychobunni

@oRioNoTime If I were a casual PVP player, I imagine I would feel the same way, it is the only logical outcome of the current system no matter what how much the naysayers try to shout it down. On a bright side, less people will be motivated to pvp, so less lag lol. (okay, bad joke)

However, I personally believe when the gap becomes truly noticeable is when the $$$ pots will drop from the store so new player A can catch up to player B who has been here grinding daily for a year. Despite the fact that there never will actually be a "catch up" until cap, the pots will still sell well in the quest to cap.

And idc that ZOS said they will only sell cosmetic and convenience items. It will be convenient for that new / behind / casual player to buy those pots. And it will be convenient for the daily grinder to buy them as well. ZOS covered themselves after previous bald faced lies with the "convenient" crap because it can apply many different ways, to many different players.

Luckily for me (and any PVE player), there really is no "winning" on PVE side, and all the sales to win in PVP won't really effect our game.

AlnilamE

oRioNoTime wrote: »

At the moment I don't have much free time and I can play 2-3 hours per day.

The options are two:
- Doing what is funny in this game and gain 1 CP (the enlightened one!)
- Farm mobs in circle with a friend and gain 3-4 CPs

I'm going for option 1, and I'm mostly not assigning the CP I got. Just play for fun. Otherwise, why are you here anyway?

Rosveen wrote: »

oRioNoTime wrote: »

The options are two:
- Doing what is funny in this game and gain 1 CP (the enlightened one!)
- Farm mobs in circle with a friend and gain 3-4 CPs

3. Do what's fun and gain no CP at all.

I spent the last week leveling alts. Next thing on my list when I log in with one of my veterans is doing a pledge, then I'll go fishing. So much XP from the fishies.

I spent the first week after 1.6 getting my templar to V1. She is a lot of fun to play. I think I'm going to work a bit on one of my DKs soon. I have friends who have low-level characters that I would be able to quest with.

And yes, fishing is something I need to keep working on. I don't have all the achievements in Silver/Gold yet.

Fleshreaper

It's going to take a few years even for those grinding to get maxed CPs. Once more than the initial 5 -10% get maxed CP, they will nerf the passives so that beginning players will still have a chase. Because if they don't there will be no new players and the old player will burn out from the grind for no reason. So, hours upon endless hours of grinding are going to be wasted, hehe (incoming flood of crying, good thing I can swim). So, just enjoy the game and let them waste their time.

Drazhar14

They need to decrease the strength of all champion passives. Some of them give +25% to a stat at 100 points. That should be lowered to +10% @100 for example. The passives should also be made easier to unlock since they are pretty important. ZOS said themself that the most powerful increases should come from low amounts of points to help close the gap between players with lots of points and players with few.

Ley

When I started playing mmos, the grind to max out your characters level, in some of the games I played was often a year or more of grinding and there was a notable difference between someone at max level and someone only 90% there. Then once you got to max level, the grind for maxed out gear began. Maybe that's the reason why an endless grind doesn't seem too bad too me.

As for the ever growing gap between full time and part time grinders, I'm ok with it and see exp potions as a pretty fair solution for those who don't have as much time (I hope this doesn't turn the thread into a whole p2w argument). I hardly have enough time anymore to compete with the full time grinders and I understand that that will create a gap in power. In some games it's the never ending gear improvement grind, some it's a CP or Potency reward system, some have both. I prefer to grind and gain CP which I can use on any of my characters, rather than grinding to get resources to +1, +2, +100 my gear. At least with the CP system, you have to play your character to improve and the improvements are account wide. With the never ending gear grind you usually end up playing the auction house more than the game and have to improve individual characters which encourages focusing on just one character.

I'm not saying that old mmo mechanics are the model for a good mmo today but the concept of having a seemingly infinite grind available seems to be something that has worked for mmos. I like the way mmos have evolved and see the cp system as progress.

I play MMOs because I like to be able to constantly improve and evolve my character, the longer I play. I also prefer to work on improving my characters directly through a system like the CP system, rather than relying heavily on gear. If I didn't like the disparity between someone who has played for 1000 hours and someone who has only played 100, then I'd play a first person shooter or a single player game.

joshisanonymous

I basically agree with the OP. The problem I see is the combination of there being no apparent cap on CPs and the fact that they're account wide. This creates a situation where long time players who have bothered to grind out CPs are literally uncatchable. Even a new hardcore player will not catch up to the hardcore players that have been around, no matter how many alts those older players make or anything. The best a new player can hope for is that large swaths of older players decide to quit for a few months so that there's time to catch up. And those bonuses in the Champion System are nice; it's not like the older players only have an advantage in customization options or something; there are significant buffs in there that give someone with a lot of CPs an advantage in both competitive PvE and competitive PvP. This should not be the case and similar situations have hurt other games in the past. My favorite example is Warhammer Online, which tied better stats and by far the best gear to PvP rank, meaning that those who were playing earlier and had already achieved those stats and gear while the playing field was even effectively made it impossible for new players to catch up because they had to attempt to fight through invincible opponents to do so. There should always be a way to catch up.

Slurg

Fleshreaper wrote: »

It's going to take a few years even for those grinding to get maxed CPs. Once more than the initial 5 -10% get maxed CP, they will nerf the passives so that beginning players will still have a chase. Because if they don't there will be no new players and the old player will burn out from the grind for no reason. So, hours upon endless hours of grinding are going to be wasted, hehe (incoming flood of crying, good thing I can swim). So, just enjoy the game and let them waste their time.

I don't think it'll take years if those data-mined XP boost potions that also boost CP make it into the game, but I think you have a good point here. If the CP based power differential in end game content that many are predicting comes true, ZOS will be backed into a corner by the angry masses and will probably end up nerfing the CP passives because it's the easiest solution. That could get ugly.

Enjoying the game until it is no longer enjoyable is probably the best course of action for most.

Divad Zarn

oRioNoTime wrote: »

Divad Zarn wrote: »

3-4 CP in 2-3 hours without enlight? show me such grind spot, i'll pay and/or i'll become your friend lol

I already hit 90cp for the insane bonus so I don't need to farm anymore, I can spoil my spot.... For 500k gold :V

500k is my daily donation for newbie players to help them start game with passion

Psychobunni

Divad Zarn wrote: »

oRioNoTime wrote: »

Divad Zarn wrote: »

3-4 CP in 2-3 hours without enlight? show me such grind spot, i'll pay and/or i'll become your friend lol

I already hit 90cp for the insane bonus so I don't need to farm anymore, I can spoil my spot.... For 500k gold :V

500k is my daily donation for newbie players to help them start game with passion

Well hello there! I am new and passionless

Niminion

There needs to be a catch-up mechanic.

I actually like WoW's current pvp conquest cap mechanic. If your not familiar with it, players are capped on the amount of pvp points they can earn each week to buy gear. New players get a bonus added to this cap for each week they missed so that they wont be weeks to months behind for the entire season.

Enlightenment should be (70+days since patch) - current CR

So a new player that gets their first VR today they should have ~90 points of enlightenment . That is still 9 million xp, not free by any means. A player could get to a competitive level by they time they hit VR14, as opposed to getting VR14 with only 35CR and still having 22 million xp to grind to get to 90!

"Grats on hitting your first VR14, only 22 more VR levels to grind until you can be invited to a group, hey where are you going?"

Today the cut-off might be 90, next year the cut-off might be 300!

Is there ever going to be Arena or Battlegrounds? Better get this sorted out. Next year there will no point for a new player to even try to do small scale pvp.

Messorem

I would say to view CP as more of a minor buff thing. I honestly don't think it will ever matter too much, its just a simple system that makes xp useful no matter what level you are. I don't think it will ever have a huge impact, in my opinion anyways.

Vahrokh

Brandalf wrote: »

This is not a fault with the CP system. It's your own problem. Do what's fun and don't get hung up on CP gains, that's it's intended function. They simply happen passively as you play. You're not supposed to grind it and I promise you nobody will ever max it out barring some sort of major bug/exploit. ZOS will assuredly extend the system indefinitely anytime people start to get remotely close to maxing it out.

My "what's fun" is trials. Wait a couple of months, and "CP walls" shall be made (maybe vet arena too, why not).

When trials got implemented, nobody could show the obligatory achievement link. So we had guilds only accepting certain races and classes and of course, stamina builds were forbidden.

Then the situation evolved and now they usually ask for achievement link. If you don't have it, no run. Newcomers feel free to screw off or join one of the "level up" guilds that once a month try 1-2 AA bosses.

Come the future, they'll require a minimum CP as well or get out. After all, a guy with the resists, health and magicka / stamina actives and passives SHALL survive much easier (Sanctum poisons, Warrior "comets" etc.) and SHALL deal some 20% DPS more at a minimum.
Demand everybody to be decent and to be able to perform 20% better thanks to CPs: you instantly have the potential for a very smooth and quick run and automatic leaderboard presence.

Only randoms won't have a CP wall.[/quote]

So basically you're saying the CS will change nothing, elitist who want to compete for top trials times will be elitist and others that just want to run through a trial and have no interest in the leaderboards won't. The CS changes nothing in this regard.

[/quote]

It changes A LOT. Whereas before CP system all you needed to be competitive was about getting some proper self crafted gear and a few days to (re)train the needed skills, with CP gates / walls you'll suddendly be required to have spent months and months grinding like a muppet.

That is, the old system did not combat but dealt with the very normal competitive players elitism, the new system does not even deal with them and puts them on the throne.

Vahrokh

apneidlingerub17_ESO wrote: »

I would say to view CP as more of a minor buff thing. I honestly don't think it will ever matter too much, its just a simple system that makes xp useful no matter what level you are. I don't think it will ever have a huge impact, in my opinion anyways.

All you have to do is to look on ESO fansites and look at the damage parses they posted with 90 CP and 3600 CPs: the former - already taking into account huge passives like the 12% crit, creates 15k DPS parses, the latter 32k DPS.

Is more than 100% increase a "minor buff"?

Why should ANYONE invite a guy who just can't do more than half the damage than another guy who does?
Why should ANYONE still bother with PvP knowing a veteran player can 1 shot him?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Completely agree with @Vahrokh .. the CP system itself is fine, and those saying "it's not supposed to be a grind" right .. well, I'll say they are if we ignore what I consider ZOS cynical implementation of a system they KNOW WILL be considered a grind.

The problem, as often happens in MMOs, is the PLAYERS, or the section of the players who infest the end-game with their elitism and demands.

It starts not with the bleeding-edge guilds who generally are so highly skilled individually and as teams that they clear content well below BiS.

No, the problem starts with the bleeding-edge wannabes who don't have such high skills but use the information coming out of the 'tier 1' guilds and create the REQUIRED BUILD LIST which @Vahrokh alludes to.

Those that come after are often by definition the more 'casual' .. SOLELY in terms of time available to play, nothing to do with skill! .. who are also often aren't yet in the 'raiding' guilds. These players quickly find the only way that can get into such guilds (which usually are the only place you can find the coordinated groups needed for end-game raiding in systems which are like WOW where raids are tiered for several difficulty levels) is to conform to the demands if they want to join.

And this is where the elitists are. They're the gate-keepers of who is and who isn't acceptable to join.

Which is fine, it's their guild, however their diktats leech out into the wider community and so you then get PUG leaders making the same DEMANDS and the rest of the player base feels the full impact of the min/maxer elitists in the second tier raiding guilds.

It is there, in the second tier guilds and PUGland that the negative effects of CPs will be seen, it already starts and will only get worse, it always does.

Majic

Our Separate Ways

The ultimate problem is the continued move toward mechanics that fragment and isolate players, resulting in an end game that becomes more oppressive as it becomes more stratified and insular. Removing the veteran ranks (if ZOS does actually follow through with removing them) would be a step away from that by at least setting a hard level cap and sticking with it.

The advantage of level caps is that they offer a common point around which player capabilities can coalesce, since character level is the primary determinant used to scale content.

Unfortunately, as currently envisioned, Champion Points are poised to replace veteran ranks as a new differentiator. In particular, if content becomes gated based on CP accumulation, then they will have become the new de facto veteran ranks.

If that does indeed happen, then ZOS will have invested considerable time and effort to transition from the old system only to import the same problems into the new one.

I hope that's not what happens, but that does seem to be a very real risk, and I believe is what underlies many of the concerns about the Champion Point system I've seen discussed so far.



tl;dr: If Champion Points end up being used to gate content, we're screwed. If not, there will still be problems, but at least we won't be screwed. Probably.

DrHarper

CP can be an issue for new players but how one can tell I have X amount of CP?
For example, I want to join a trial run, I have let's say 360 points. RL tells me - you need at least 700 to join us. So how can he tell I have 700 or more? I can just lie, no?
There are achievements for CPs, but it's for 1 then 360(?) or smth and finally 1200...
By the time they realize I have less than 700 we would finish the trial, no?
Can someone explain me this? I am just curious, that's it.

Razzak

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Completely agree with @Vahrokh .. the CP system itself is fine, and those saying "it's not supposed to be a grind" right .. well, I'll say they are if we ignore what I consider ZOS cynical implementation of a system they KNOW WILL be considered a grind.

The problem, as often happens in MMOs, is the PLAYERS, or the section of the players who infest the end-game with their elitism and demands.

It starts not with the bleeding-edge guilds who generally are so highly skilled individually and as teams that they clear content well below BiS.

No, the problem starts with the bleeding-edge wannabes who don't have such high skills but use the information coming out of the 'tier 1' guilds and create the REQUIRED BUILD LIST which @Vahrokh alludes to.

Those that come after are often by definition the more 'casual' .. SOLELY in terms of time available to play, nothing to do with skill! .. who are also often aren't yet in the 'raiding' guilds. These players quickly find the only way that can get into such guilds (which usually are the only place you can find the coordinated groups needed for end-game raiding in systems which are like WOW where raids are tiered for several difficulty levels) is to conform to the demands if they want to join.

And this is where the elitists are. They're the gate-keepers of who is and who isn't acceptable to join.

Which is fine, it's their guild, however their diktats leech out into the wider community and so you then get PUG leaders making the same DEMANDS and the rest of the player base feels the full impact of the min/maxer elitists in the second tier raiding guilds.

It is there, in the second tier guilds and PUGland that the negative effects of CPs will be seen, it already starts and will only get worse, it always does.

Imagine one of those elitist players in PvP, against non elitist one. There can be no demands what build or the amount of CPs one has to have in order to be viable to PvP, as it's a PvP. Skill against skill, build against build and CPs against CPs.

But, now the non elitist one, or the one with less CPs, will be the one that will resent the difference. Now this player will be the one to demand some sort of leveling up between players.

Hexyl

Some guys have already tested the Cp system on PTS. it's have a VERY VERY HUGE impact on a power of a character.

The gap between someone with 140 CP and an other with 600 or 600 vs 1080 is very important ! With few CP you are totally outplayed.

And Dev actually know it !! All pts players report the number values for this gap. And that's boring me...

This system is a no-sense in a MMO. in few month, news player will be LARGELY crashed by old players. With no chance to catch up them..

Audigy

The only advice I have for players struggling with the CP is to just ignore it. I did ignore the VR´s on release and I do so with CPs.

If I get them fine, but I wont rush it or feel pushed into doing something I don't enjoy. The situation with AVA is indeed a problem, we can all just hope that ZOS will realize this and open up brackets.

DrHarper wrote: »

CP can be an issue for new players but how one can tell I have X amount of CP?
For example, I want to join a trial run, I have let's say 360 points. RL tells me - you need at least 700 to join us. So how can he tell I have 700 or more? I can just lie, no?
There are achievements for CPs, but it's for 1 then 360(?) or smth and finally 1200...
By the time they realize I have less than 700 we would finish the trial, no?
Can someone explain me this? I am just curious, that's it.

I am afraid there will be addons available that scan your progress. Its been like that since WOTLK of WOW and Blizzard never managed to fix that loophole. Players in dungeons get called out for a wrong socket, for not moving quick enough, for not having touched a button in time ... I know it sounds sad, but there are people who develop such spy tools and players who will abuse them in every possible way.

BBSooner

I would contend that it's quite a minority of players that are spending 10+ hours a day farming CP with Joe Esposito - "You're the Best Around" on loop in the background montage style. I would say ... just play how you want.

oRioNoTime

I see a lot of people talking about low level

Audigy wrote: »

The only advice I have for players struggling with the CP is to just ignore it. I did ignore the VR´s on release and I do so with CPs.

If I get them fine, but I wont rush it or feel pushed into doing something I don't enjoy. The situation with AVA is indeed a problem, we can all just hope that ZOS will realize this and open up brackets.

DrHarper wrote: »

CP can be an issue for new players but how one can tell I have X amount of CP?
For example, I want to join a trial run, I have let's say 360 points. RL tells me - you need at least 700 to join us. So how can he tell I have 700 or more? I can just lie, no?
There are achievements for CPs, but it's for 1 then 360(?) or smth and finally 1200...
By the time they realize I have less than 700 we would finish the trial, no?
Can someone explain me this? I am just curious, that's it.

I am afraid there will be addons available that scan your progress. Its been like that since WOTLK of WOW and Blizzard never managed to fix that loophole. Players in dungeons get called out for a wrong socket, for not moving quick enough, for not having touched a button in time ... I know it sounds sad, but there are people who develop such spy tools and players who will abuse them in every possible way.

Ignore VR? It's 2 day farming to "unlock" end game content, I see there are a lot of player which are playing this game in a different super casual way, I don't criticize that but I really can't understand it.
If I want to chill out or having an immersive experience there are tons of awesome games out there, not MMO of course!

Apokh

Another CS whine thread...

Bye! Can i has yo stuff plx?

Junkogen

They made it this way so that people who really care about this stuff will pay the $15 per month (or more for experience potions) for an experience boost to catch up.

You have to think about these things in terms of them maximizing profit. It's a business first and a game second.

Arreyanne

This system reminds me of the AA system Funcom put into AoC when they introduced the expansion.

It was a pain in the rear there and it will be the same pain in the rear here.

Another example of vertical scaling in gaming

UPrime

EinionYrth wrote: »

So despite the devs best efforts with diminishing returns etc. It seems that the mentality of MMO players is such that the CP has nevertheless become another system to cap out as soon as possible so that they can come and whinge on the forums about how everything in the game is now too easy. I despair, I really do.

This is why I think it was a mistake to give it a cap. I like Diablo 3's system a tiny bit better where there is no reachable cap. So it's not even a goal. You just play the game.