Update 47 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680228
Reward for action: Too little reward for too much action
Rustyfaw
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I'll start by saying that I'll be using comparisons to Wow, a very successful MMO. Not as to what should exist or how systems should be, but rather how to keep the player engaged. My main focus will be on PvE aspect. There are very good threads that already talk about the pros and cons of the PvP scene. My only input will be is that they do a great job at letting the player engage how they want Right Now. With talks of trying to disperse the big groups, I have my doubts PvP will still be as engaging as it is.
The MMO genre has been around for sometime. There has been a lot of growth as to how to keep players engaged and to keep them feeling excited about logging on. It starts with a rich background of content and, in my opinion, no franchise has more of that than Elder Scrolls. If you need any proof as to how popular it is, Skyrim is ranked within the 20 most successful games in history. But there is also design, which again, Elder Scrolls does so well. Big open spaces full of life, full of activities. But you need to disguise those activities as something that's new, something that makes you forget that every game has the same initial inputs and outputs. That's where ESO needs to add to and where Wow does so well.
My first run through, I was thoroughly engaged. The quests were soo good at masking what the underlining goal was: Pick up object A, Kill object B, Find and turn in Object C. They were funny, they were smart, they grew through the zone as any good quest design should. But then it stopped. It stopped because of Cadwell's Silver and Gold. It now became a chore, a chore to reach end-game. I was pulled from the concept of supporting my faction to be placed in another faction as.... Undercover? Spying? Living the life through someone else's eyes? Nope, simply to continue the monotonous grind to level cap. Wow has done this well. You get to chose from several zones where you want to go. Leveling a new toon can feel different depending on which zone you chose whereas leveling a new toon in ESO, you have the same zone next in line. Whether you make a new toon in EP, AD, or DC its the same zone that you're forced into, removing player choice. So you'll get the same quests, usually, in line. You'll get the same armor and weapon rewards.
The next problem is once you complete Cadwell's goose chase, you're off to Craglorn. Craglorn itself is a nice change of pace. It's a bit tougher as now you'll need to begin group quests. This has good and bad tendencies. It helps prepare you for organized trials and veteran dungeons, but now go several months to current time, its a pretty desolate area. You'll see a few level capped players soloing mob packs in the veteran 11 portions, but no longer are chunks of the community advocating group quests, if many were. Most chat pugs would be advertising farm groups as it was far faster to grind specific key areas to maximize time to exp gain.
Lastly are trials and Vet dugeons. The game is a year old. Let's be honest, a revamped new release is not going to make it feel new and refresh. Only new content does that. Content in the forms of new quest zones, new hubs, new dungeons and trials. Adding two new pieces to old content is not justification as new content. For players that have been here for even 5 months and have a level capped toon, that becomes stale fast. Champion Points...... CP...... On the top looks fresh and interesting. Underneath it all, it's more grind than the payoff. 3600 points is unfathomable in a players mind at the gain of one a day. You just told players you have a 10 year plan in character growth. Do you have a 10 year plan for content, in terms as discussed earlier? Do you have a 10 year plan for expansions? The consumer doesn't want to hear they have to play every day to stay current. What happens when there are years dfference in player power. A 7 year player versus a 2 year player. That's massive.
These are my concerns of longevity and player interest. These are shared amongst the community.
The MMO genre has been around for sometime. There has been a lot of growth as to how to keep players engaged and to keep them feeling excited about logging on. It starts with a rich background of content and, in my opinion, no franchise has more of that than Elder Scrolls. If you need any proof as to how popular it is, Skyrim is ranked within the 20 most successful games in history. But there is also design, which again, Elder Scrolls does so well. Big open spaces full of life, full of activities. But you need to disguise those activities as something that's new, something that makes you forget that every game has the same initial inputs and outputs. That's where ESO needs to add to and where Wow does so well.
My first run through, I was thoroughly engaged. The quests were soo good at masking what the underlining goal was: Pick up object A, Kill object B, Find and turn in Object C. They were funny, they were smart, they grew through the zone as any good quest design should. But then it stopped. It stopped because of Cadwell's Silver and Gold. It now became a chore, a chore to reach end-game. I was pulled from the concept of supporting my faction to be placed in another faction as.... Undercover? Spying? Living the life through someone else's eyes? Nope, simply to continue the monotonous grind to level cap. Wow has done this well. You get to chose from several zones where you want to go. Leveling a new toon can feel different depending on which zone you chose whereas leveling a new toon in ESO, you have the same zone next in line. Whether you make a new toon in EP, AD, or DC its the same zone that you're forced into, removing player choice. So you'll get the same quests, usually, in line. You'll get the same armor and weapon rewards.
The next problem is once you complete Cadwell's goose chase, you're off to Craglorn. Craglorn itself is a nice change of pace. It's a bit tougher as now you'll need to begin group quests. This has good and bad tendencies. It helps prepare you for organized trials and veteran dungeons, but now go several months to current time, its a pretty desolate area. You'll see a few level capped players soloing mob packs in the veteran 11 portions, but no longer are chunks of the community advocating group quests, if many were. Most chat pugs would be advertising farm groups as it was far faster to grind specific key areas to maximize time to exp gain.
Lastly are trials and Vet dugeons. The game is a year old. Let's be honest, a revamped new release is not going to make it feel new and refresh. Only new content does that. Content in the forms of new quest zones, new hubs, new dungeons and trials. Adding two new pieces to old content is not justification as new content. For players that have been here for even 5 months and have a level capped toon, that becomes stale fast. Champion Points...... CP...... On the top looks fresh and interesting. Underneath it all, it's more grind than the payoff. 3600 points is unfathomable in a players mind at the gain of one a day. You just told players you have a 10 year plan in character growth. Do you have a 10 year plan for content, in terms as discussed earlier? Do you have a 10 year plan for expansions? The consumer doesn't want to hear they have to play every day to stay current. What happens when there are years dfference in player power. A 7 year player versus a 2 year player. That's massive.
These are my concerns of longevity and player interest. These are shared amongst the community.
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Folkb✭✭✭✭✭Craglorn has always been a ghost town since it's conception and people only did it to grind levels. With the CP add on it has changed a bit as people want to do those quests for the exp but its still pretty desolate. I really wish ZOS would see this zone for what it is and make these quests solo.1
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fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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What 10-year plan? No MMO developer has a 10-year plan to the level you're looking for and certainly even if they did they'd not publish it. If you're simply calculating how long it'll take to earn 3600 CPs then I think you don't understand.You just told players you have a 10 year plan in character growth. Do you have a 10 year plan for content, in terms as discussed earlier? Do you have a 10 year plan for expansions? The consumer doesn't want to hear they have to play every day to stay current. What happens when there are years dfference in player power. A 7 year player versus a 2 year player. That's massive.
As for player disparity, there are several MMOs over 7 years old, they all manage just fine with new players. Sure, it's a bit harder perhaps for a new player to reach level-cap if there isn't an 'instant 90' button but even in that game many new players choose to level their first character 'by hand'.
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on March 25, 2015 1:24PM0 -
Majic✭✭✭✭✭Advice For The Craglorn
I would prefer to see them made soloable.Craglorn has always been a ghost town since it's conception and people only did it to grind levels. With the CP add on it has changed a bit as people want to do those quests for the exp but its still pretty desolate. I really wish ZOS would see this zone for what it is and make these quests solo.
In other words, scalable with challenges and rewards that are based on how many players are participating. That way players who want to solo them can, but they can also play them with others to face tougher fights and get better rewards -- and ideally do so without needing to formally group and do a lot of typing in chat.
It's already been done in other games, and public dungeons kind of make a stab in that direction, but it's something that could really breathe life into ESO's endgame (and the rest of the game, for that matter), so I hope we'll see more of it down the road.
Epopt Of The Everspinning Logo, Church Of The Eternal Loading Screen
And verily, verily, spaketh the Lord: "Error <<1>>"2 -
Rustyfaw✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »What 10-year plan? No MMO developer has a 10-year plan to the level you're looking for and certainly even if they did they'd not publish it. If you're simply calculating how long it'll take to earn 3600 CPs then I think you don't understand.
As for player disparity, there are several MMOs over 7 years old, they all manage just fine with new players. Sure, it's a bit harder perhaps for a new player to reach level-cap if there isn't an 'instant 90' button but even in that game many new players choose to level their first character 'by hand'.
The 10 year plan for character growth is the amount of CP(3600) divided by how they estimate how long it'll take us to gain 1 CP (1/day 365 days/year). Of course there will be some who gain faster and some who gain slower but overall they estimated a 10 year plan in overall community character growth.
This is long term, they dont foresee most of the community capped in 6 months. This is a long term solution to adding character power.Edited by Rustyfaw on March 25, 2015 1:50PM0 -
Regarding the difference in power between players. Take a look at EVE online. There is a massive difference in skill between new players and veteran ones and yet the game is in good shape.0
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AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Advice For The Craglorn
I would prefer to see them made soloable.Craglorn has always been a ghost town since it's conception and people only did it to grind levels. With the CP add on it has changed a bit as people want to do those quests for the exp but its still pretty desolate. I really wish ZOS would see this zone for what it is and make these quests solo.
In other words, scalable with challenges and rewards that are based on how many players are participating. That way players who want to solo them can, but they can also play them with others to face tougher fights and get better rewards -- and ideally do so without needing to formally group and do a lot of typing in chat.
It's already been done in other games, and public dungeons kind of make a stab in that direction, but it's something that could really breathe life into ESO's endgame (and the rest of the game, for that matter), so I hope we'll see more of it down the road.
As far as I know, with the exception of three quests (The Corrupted Stone, The Missing Warrior and Critical Mass), where the mechanics require 4 players, all other quests are soloable in terms of mechanics.
Of course, trying to do Shada's Tear by yourself would be madness in my eyes, but I'm sure people have tried (and maybe succeeded).
OP: I'm not sure why you think you need to finish Silver or Gold to go to Craglorn. Just go there if that's what you want to do. My VR characters are parked there as soon as they beat Molag Bal (my personal barrier to entry), and they work on Silver/Gold quest when they feel like it.
The Moot Councillor0 -
failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see craglorn full of players, and they don't all seem to be grinders. It's not a ghost town O.o and have never been either.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Craglorn has always been a ghost town since it's conception and people only did it to grind levels. With the CP add on it has changed a bit as people want to do those quests for the exp but its still pretty desolate. I really wish ZOS would see this zone for what it is and make these quests solo.
No one wants to do the quests in Crag. You can get better exp and better gear pieces by playing Normal DSA.
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dungeons have next to zero incentive to repeat them. The XP is a JOKE. I mean literally it's a JOKE. I was taking note during the VR CoH pledge lastnight, and HUGE mobs of 10-20 enemies were rewarding a TOTAL of 700xp. Then when you are done completing this challenging content that often takes well over an hour to complete depending on your group, you get 10-12k xp. Seriously. This is outlandish. Doesn't ZoS get it? Why in the world would you go out of your way to DISSUADE people from running dungeons? They need to get their heads out of the sand and open their eyes to what other successful MMOs do.
Moderators here previously mentioned increasing dungeon XP as well as trials and PvP. Trials and PvP got a nice buff (about time really) but dungeons got squat. It was disappointing.
I was on my VR8 NB with a PUG in Vet CoH last night that didn't know the fights. That's ok. I don't hold anything against them. Everyone has to learn. But we wiped at least 10 times on the last fight and I was asking myself "Why am I doing this?" 2 hours in a difficult dungeon with a bunch of frustrated people for what? 12k XP? A gold key that more than likely will get me an almost worthless piece of gear that I will likely deconstruct?
I could have gotten 200k xp easily just by questing and grinding for 2 hours, alot more gold, and several bags full of gear.
It's frustrating. They just don't get it.
EDIT: This isn't a rant about pugs or Vet dungeons. It's a rant about incentive & lack there of.Edited by Alphashado on March 25, 2015 2:55PM1 -
Ashigaru✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »What 10-year plan? No MMO developer has a 10-year plan to the level you're looking for and certainly even if they did they'd not publish it. If you're simply calculating how long it'll take to earn 3600 CPs then I think you don't understand.
As for player disparity, there are several MMOs over 7 years old, they all manage just fine with new players. Sure, it's a bit harder perhaps for a new player to reach level-cap if there isn't an 'instant 90' button but even in that game many new players choose to level their first character 'by hand'.
The 10 year plan for character growth is the amount of CP(3600) divided by how they estimate how long it'll take us to gain 1 CP (1/day 365 days/year). Of course there will be some who gain faster and some who gain slower but overall they estimated a 10 year plan in overall community character growth.
This is long term, they dont foresee most of the community capped in 6 months. This is a long term solution to adding character power.
Nobody would grind cp if they thought or knew it was going to take 10 years to cap out lol.0 -
Ashigaru✭✭✭✭failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »I see craglorn full of players, and they don't all seem to be grinders. It's not a ghost town O.o and have never been either.
It has been a ghost town since after the fixed the xp xploit after its opening. Yes you do see people there and most of them are harvesters going from node to node or standing back waiting for you to clear some mobs near a node and run in to harvest while you are killing them mobs, which the only reason you are was to get to the node ....1