Dual Wield Discussion and Feedback

exiledtyrant

Dual Wield Discussion

I thought I’d take some time to give feedback on dual wield after having leveled up with over the past few weeks. I think there are some great aspects about dual wield, some weak aspects, and some outright confusing aspects. I go into each skill and passive to explain my reasoning.

Twin slashes:

A great skill in theory but a poor performer in practice. These are due to two factors. One its main damage component is a bleed. Secondly its morphs offer little choice.

Bleeds immunities severely limit the PVE content this skill can actually function in. Several story lines and quest zones are dominated by undead(spirits,skeletons), constructs ( lurcher, gargoyles, dwemer), and atronachs ( storm, flame, frost atronachs) as well as other less prolific examples. None of these mob types happen to bleed which means the main damage component is void. The initial damage is only about 10% of the total bleed damage which makes it very small. The bleed damage overall is only strong enough to add on to a sustained damage rotation.

Damage shields in PVP negate bleed and purge bleeds that have been applied. Block stops bleed from applying and reduces bleeds that have landed.

Twin Slashes Morphs :

Rending Slashes – This is the lesser of the 2 morphs in my opinion. It increases damage on the portion of the ability that is least noticeable which is the initial damage. Even at it’ 20% or so damage boost to initial damage it still comes out as under performing. The snare is not needed because dual wield already has a snare and now a speed up. This ends in blood craze basically always being the best choice.

This morph should be redone so that it can compete against the heal of blood craze. I would suggest a new utility (2 -3 second immobilize) and a damage increase to the bleed damage instead of initial damage.

Blood Craze – This morph is great when it can be used and poor when nothing bleeds. Bleeds would have to be rebalanced to truly make this healing morph worthwhile.

Flurry:

Flurry is fairly straightforward at what it does. It should be the natural follow up for single target damage within the weapon line. Its morphs offer some choice but could be better. It is also my concern that flurry is not following its 1.3 second channel time. I have a thread located here with a video comparing speed:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/156316/is-flurry-to-slow#latest

Flurry Morphs:

Rapid Strikes- A good damage boosting passive. Boring but effective.

Blinding flurry- I believe this is the weaker of the 2 morphs. Off balance is a bit of hit or miss with its application and you need to take time out to land a heavy attack to trigger a knockdown. I believe it would be better served as either turning flurry into an AOE cone, or a stamina based damage shield.

Whirlwind:
A great skill overall. The morphs offer distinct choice, the AOE is good, and the execute utility at the end sets it apart from other executes.

Whirlwind Morphs:

Whirling Blades- My overall favorite morph. The stamina regen is great allowing for lots of AOE for little cost.

Steel Tornado- The increased radius utility this morph provides is a great tradeoff between the two morphs.

Blade Cloak:
Blade cloak is an interesting skill. It adds more sustained damage and gives a unique defensive bonus. The morphs however seem at odds with each other and the rest of the dual wield skills.

Blade cloak Morphs:

Quick Cloak- This morph basically allows permanent sprint. The cost is so cheap and the speed buff is so spammable you can use it indefinitely. It is so good it makes the other option pale in comparison.

Deadly Cloak- Deadly cloak offers a fairly strong single target hit at no cost which is nice. The problem is Dual wield already has that function filled with hidden blade. This makes deadly cloak a bit redundant and clunky since it needs 2 casts to complete its damage. I would like to see the free dagger removed and the blade AOE tick reduced to one per second. That way you get more damage and sustained aoe to synergize with whirlwind.

Hidden Blade:

Hidden blade serves its purpose as ranged snare to threaten people at range and help melee close the gap. Truth be told I always found the ability to be a bit underwhelming but it has a niche.

Hidden Blade Morphs:

Shrouded daggers- Turns hidden blade into an AOE. Group snares can be useful so this morph certainly has a place.

Flying blade- Increases the dagger range. A rather flat morph but it does prompt distinct choice between the two. Would be nice if it came with a silence interaction to make it more useful.

Passives:
Slaughter – Great passive that helps put the pressure on.

Dual wield expert – Another good passive

Controlled fury- Provides some much needed cost reduction

Ruffian – Another good damage buff however dual wield lacks the tools to actually trigger its damage boost. It would be nice to have a skill or two that could allow the setup of the ruffian passive.

Twin Blade and Blunt - A nice assortment of buffs. Axes bleeds are again suffering from bleed issues. The bleed is so small it would be nice if it could stack.

Overall suggestions for Dual Wield:

Dual wield on live mixes sustained damage, direct damage, ranged, and redundant abilities. To bring the overall focus of dual wielding in line I believe dual wielding should be centered on AOE and sustained damage. Twin slashes and flurry could be cones, and whirling blades and blade cloak can be 360 degree AOE damage. The safest place to be when a dual wielder is fighting should be far away from them as they rain steel upon their enemies. Two handed is already filling its niche as High burst and single target damage. Let dual wield fill the opposite niche of high sustained and AOE damage.

Lastly if bleeds can’t be fixed I would ask that the bleeding skills be turned into poison skills.

Cody

The issue with bleeds definitely holds the DW line back. twin slashes is actually not a bad skill in of itself; its just the fact so many things are immune to bleed damage, and the fact so many things in PVP negate bleeds, that makes the skill useless much of the time.

your idea for deadly cloak is fantastic in my opinion. I defenitely support it.

I support everything here pretty much. Well done:)

Jar_Ek

I agree with the OP, but would add that DW is currently weak compared to 2H. Mostly because DW has few survivability skills, no buffs and limited synergy.

2h has a buff and a HoT, and a burst heal in one skill which also synergises with a damage shield skill (brawler morph, which scales with number of targets which is great for survivability).
2h has a gap closer which synergises with melee skills (is no gap before applying another skill).
2h has a powerful single target attack, that is uninterruptible and has a cc effect.
2h attacks hit multiple targets by default (passive).

DW has a HoT that is linked to a successful attack and can be blocked, shielded, or suffer from immunity.
DW has a ranged snare, which means that you probably have to move to hit opponents with other melee abilities.
DW has an aoe ability to hit multiple targets.

So unless DW has higher damage on all attacks, then objectively it is weaker than 2h.

It would be nice if DW had a bit more survivability, and some form of weapon /damage buff.
Also please make bleeds into a poison DoT.

Stannum

One more detail. Flurry vs Flying blade. You have to make choise which of this 1-target skill to put on your skill bar cause every slot is valuable.
In most cases flying blade is better as it's instant, ranged and puts snare. I found only one case when flurry is better - in PvE used by NB with siphonig attacks on (cause it can proc with resourse return on every hit in channel).

exiledtyrant

It would also be nice if dual wield abilities procced both weapon glyphs. one of the distinct advantage vs 2 handed weapons is the use of 2 weapon glyphs yet a lot of abilities only use the main hand for procs. Basically forces using 2 light attacks so you are proccing evenly.

exiledtyrant

Did a little more testing today glyphs and axe bleed passive is worse than I thought. Since axes bleed takes 2 seconds before it ticks you only get the damage after not attacking for 2 seconds. With 2 axes you get 100% bleed chance so every time you hit something the timer just refreshes. You will never get the bleed unless you stop dpsing.

Wearing 2 of the same glyph apparently puts them both on cooldown. I tested this with absorb magicka glyphs. So even if you weave 2 light attacks you only get one proc. When i did absorb on one weapon and lightning on the other I got each effect separately. Main only procs on most dual wiled abilities still regardless. I guess that means it's best to have a long cooldown glyph on the off hand and a damage glyph on the main hand so you don't have to use two light attacks as often.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Did a little more testing today glyphs and axe bleed passive is worse than I thought. Since axes bleed takes 2 seconds before it ticks you only get the damage after not attacking for 2 seconds. With 2 axes you get 100% bleed chance so every time you hit something the timer just refreshes. You will never get the bleed unless you stop dpsing.

Wearing 2 of the same glyph apparently puts them both on cooldown. I tested this with absorb magicka glyphs. So even if you weave 2 light attacks you only get one proc. When i did absorb on one weapon and lightning on the other I got each effect separately. Main only procs on most dual wiled abilities still regardless. I guess that means it's best to have a long cooldown glyph on the off hand and a damage glyph on the main hand so you don't have to use two light attacks as often.

Man the fact that you have to think that hard about the cool down is BS with two weapons I should both my enchantments porc when I use a DW power like Twin Slashes, and Rapid Strikes where both powers hit both weapon enchantments should be in play

exiledtyrant

Honestly I gave up trying to time it. I just put two different glyphs on and call it a day.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Honestly I gave up trying to time it. I just put two different glyphs on and call it a day.

I don't use DW anymore it's has one good power

exiledtyrant

I can't help loving the aesthetics of it myself. If I wanted to min/max it I would probably be using 2handed for my undaunted infiltrator build. Then again I would have to readjust my sets.

Jar_Ek

Here is my take on it. Generally speaking I agree with the op, but have a slightly different view on how to fix it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168267/can-dual-wield-be-made-to-work#latest

Sarevok_Anchev

Nice write up and testing. I hope this is noticed by a moderator and brought to the Dev's attention if they don't already know the issues.

I_killed_Vivec

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I can't help loving the aesthetics of it myself. If I wanted to min/max it I would probably be using 2handed for my undaunted infiltrator build. Then again I would have to readjust my sets.

Likewise, I know that my DW build will always be sub-optimal but I don' t care:)

Though I did start out with heavy armour and dual axes (like a proper warrior should), but I quickly got bored of being told mobs were immune to bleeding effects - being hit by twin axes shouldn't just make you bleed, it should severely diminish your ability to fight back! And this was also a while ago when heavy armour was rubbish. So I went daggers/medium and now it's all about the critical!

GrimMauKin

My Nightblade is dual wield. Blood Craze is my main attack and works well but I've also levelled up Rapid Strikes which get swapped in when needed for bleeding immune creature (I'd probably load it up for Dwemer ruins and anywhere else where there's a lot of immune creatures).

Victus

I am really loving my orsimer stamina DK that primarily uses DW (but does use 2H as well for the second bar). I agree with the OP's assessment as well.

Sarevok_Anchev

You would assume DW was primarily focused on sustain while 2h was burst damage. They should really remove the bleed effect all together since it's ineffective in all aspects of the game.

Maphusail

And what about DW in PVP? Could it be effective compared to 2h if you play some kind of "speedy" warrior? Any success story?)

RavenSworn

I think that all they need to do is to:

1) make bleeds affect all targets but have their resistance change accordingly. Like automatons will still be hit by bleeds but not as much as say a humanoid mob.

2) Bleeds should stack. This will greatly help both morphs for twin slashes.

3) Blade cloak is good for utility but it doesnt seem to function as one. Your idea for an aoe Morph is good.

4) Personally I dont agree that axes deal bleed damage but it would be better if it has increased weapon speed rather than bleeds. Or you can make blinding flurry to increase attack speed for 4secs which would enable better synergy with the rest of the dw line.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

Maphusail

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

Could you explain you idea for the rest to understand it?

Crunch

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

This actually brings up a question I've had about dual wield - does the bleed passive for using axes proc valkyn skoria?

Tankqull

Crunch wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

This actually brings up a question I've had about dual wield - does the bleed passive for using axes proc valkyn skoria?

yes

Maphusail wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

Could you explain you idea for the rest to understand it?

highest possible spelldmg, weapondmg btw too so if you do have worthwhile class skills DW is the way to deal the highest possible dmg

Crunch

Tankqull wrote: »

yes

Thanks! I was scared to waste my skill points just for testing if it didn't

flintstone

My vet 3 DK uses DW on his second bar, and 2 hand great sword on his first bar (60-68% crit). I use lots of fire DOTs and switch between the two weapons on the fly..........great for dropping large mobs in seconds when you are solo!

I only use Steel Tornado spam from the DW line though.......The DK fire skills do much more damage than any of the other skills in that line against large mobs.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Maphusail wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

Could you explain you idea for the rest to understand it?

Yes.

Base Spell Damage, as Base Weapon Damage, is deriving from the Weapon damage rating .
Weapon damage rating not the Weapon Damage stat

1 Staff has less Weapon Damage rating than 2 Swords/Axes/Knives/Hammers, of same level and quality.

On top you have 2 trait stones to work with, and one more item for set bonus.

If you do not believe me, make 1 staff and 2 swords of same level. Use them and see for yourself the Spell damage going up when you use the 2 swords compared to 1 staff. Consider the difference between purple items or gold items. (then add the bonus of the second trait ).

exiledtyrant

Duel wield giving the best weapon damage loses it's significance when it's skills lack the base and scaling to compete with 2handed weapons. That is one of the reasons why I suggest to stop making the two compete and just let each have their own niche. Duel wield being better for spell casting is just an odd anomaly that has come with the overall system revamp. I am not sure how I feel about it.

It is nice that every weapon plays by the same rules so there is less to learn, but on the other hand it seems odd that spell casting weapons aren't the best for spell casting. The same can be said of armor. Hybrid damage took a major hit when armor = spell power. It made the whole concept pointless. Duel wielding being the best spell casting implement does nothing for those who actually want to use the weapons however.

Maphusail

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Maphusail wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

DW is ace for Magicka Builds, even without a single point spec on it

Those who know what I am talking about, smile in agreement. The rest you can start complaining about my statement, but I dare you try it first

Could you explain you idea for the rest to understand it?

Yes.

Base Spell Damage, as Base Weapon Damage, is deriving from the Weapon damage rating .
Weapon damage rating not the Weapon Damage stat

1 Staff has less Weapon Damage rating than 2 Swords/Axes/Knives/Hammers, of same level and quality.

On top you have 2 trait stones to work with, and one more item for set bonus.

If you do not believe me, make 1 staff and 2 swords of same level. Use them and see for yourself the Spell damage going up when you use the 2 swords compared to 1 staff. Consider the difference between purple items or gold items. (then add the bonus of the second trait ).

It looks more like theorycrafting. I mean maybe you do have reason when speaking about additional weapon damage rating of DW compared to a staff. But how do you imagine, say, some kind of magicka DPS to make benefit from it? To trigger this bonus, one must use some DW skill and in most cases come into melee, that mean, to use stamina, which usually is comparatevely low by people using magicka based dps and this potential damage you deal can be compensated by 2-3 ranged fireballs sent by your flamestaff. If you use DW to proc your Valkyr Skoria Meteor, well, it looks to be some uncommon way of making builds but nothing more. Or am I wrong in my suggestions?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Maphusail wrote: »

It looks more like theorycrafting. I mean maybe you do have reason when speaking about additional weapon damage rating of DW compared to a staff. But how do you imagine, say, some kind of magicka DPS to make benefit from it? To trigger this bonus, one must use some DW skill and in most cases come into melee, that mean, to use stamina, which usually is comparatevely low by people using magicka based dps and this potential damage you deal can be compensated by 2-3 ranged fireballs sent by your flamestaff. If you use DW to proc your Valkyr Skoria Meteor, well, it looks to be some uncommon way of making builds but nothing more. Or am I wrong in my suggestions?

You make a mistake on assumptions without doing the simple test I wrote and because that simple test is too difficult for you to understand here is a Dummy's guide to test.....

Put a Destro Staff V14 white, no traits. Press C. Record your Spell power.
Then put 2 Swords V14 white, no traits. Press C. Record your Spell Power.

On my V14 Templar, the difference is 203 Spell Power just with simple white items no traits.
(I have no DW or Destroy staff skills or passives).

With gold items, the difference is much much bigger.

If you still cannot comprehend the above, so be it.
As for how long this is in game? More than a year. Using is since January 2014 beta, and I am not alone.

Aett_Thorn

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Duel wield giving the best weapon damage loses it's significance when it's skills lack the base and scaling to compete with 2handed weapons. That is one of the reasons why I suggest to stop making the two compete and just let each have their own niche. Duel wield being better for spell casting is just an odd anomaly that has come with the overall system revamp. I am not sure how I feel about it.

It is nice that every weapon plays by the same rules so there is less to learn, but on the other hand it seems odd that spell casting weapons aren't the best for spell casting. The same can be said of armor. Hybrid damage took a major hit when armor = spell power. It made the whole concept pointless. Duel wielding being the best spell casting implement does nothing for those who actually want to use the weapons however.

I agree that Dual Wield and Two-Handed shouldn't try to straight-up compete. They should try to do two different things. At this point, I think that Two-Handed has won the straight up damage game (and it could be argued the utility game). As such, Dual Wield should have advantages in defense and control.

In another dual-wield thread, I had suggested that Blade Cloak be replaced with Parry, an active X% dodge skill with morphs to either riposte attacks or to grant a heal or damage shield upon a successful dodge.

I'd also suggest that maybe instead of the rather ineffective bleed on axes, and maybe for the armor piercing of mace, we instead allow them to grant a chance for Heroism (Axes) and Maim (Maces). This would allow dual wield to have more offensive and defensive choices in the line.

trimsic_ESO

This is a great post; the issues with DW are very well explained.

DW is good for an AOE build in a raid group, but is really poor for a single target build, especially in Cyrodiil. The immunity to bleeding effects is something I don't understand, both from a PVE and a PVP perspective, and I really hope that this is something that will be addressed in the next big patch.

Dositheus

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Maphusail wrote: »

It looks more like theorycrafting. I mean maybe you do have reason when speaking about additional weapon damage rating of DW compared to a staff. But how do you imagine, say, some kind of magicka DPS to make benefit from it? To trigger this bonus, one must use some DW skill and in most cases come into melee, that mean, to use stamina, which usually is comparatevely low by people using magicka based dps and this potential damage you deal can be compensated by 2-3 ranged fireballs sent by your flamestaff. If you use DW to proc your Valkyr Skoria Meteor, well, it looks to be some uncommon way of making builds but nothing more. Or am I wrong in my suggestions?

You make a mistake on assumptions without doing the simple test I wrote and because that simple test is too difficult for you to understand here is a Dummy's guide to test.....

Put a Destro Staff V14 white, no traits. Press C. Record your Spell power.
Then put 2 Swords V14 white, no traits. Press C. Record your Spell Power.

On my V14 Templar, the difference is 203 Spell Power just with simple white items no traits.
(I have no DW or Destroy staff skills or passives).

With gold items, the difference is much much bigger.

If you still cannot comprehend the above, so be it.
As for how long this is in game? More than a year. Using is since January 2014 beta, and I am not alone.

Alright, I get what is bothering you here. You are not pleased that a melee weapon is giving more spell power than your mage weapon (staff). And on the surface, you have a point... although your premise is a bit flawed. You are basically comparing apples and oranges, and we should bring it back to apples and apples or oranges and oranges first. For the magika line of weapons, there are two ranged weapon types. For the stamina line of weapons.. there are 4 methods (snb, 2hand, dual wield, and bow). Only one of these is "ranged", and that is the bow. All that means, is that the auto attacks are ranged out of the trees. And the base weapons for each class are different in the amount of spellpower/weapon power they provide, and the associated passives.

IF you want to accurately compare the two, you'd be comparing Bow and Staff to get your "apples to apples" comparison. At which point, you'll find with both white quality... to be the same. The idea is that melee weapons need to be in melee, vs ranged weapons where you can plink from long distance and thus shouldn't be providing as much punch. As a sorc, where you don't need to use any of the weapon line abilities... and are just using the weapon as a stat stick basically.. while you throw your class abilities from ranged.. it looks odd. For any of the classes utilizing the weapon line skills, and basic attacks.. it's a slightly different story.

Now.. do I think they could/should incorporate a magica based melee weapon? Perhaps... although sorcs seem to be doing just fine using dual wielded swords with nirn or two handers with nern, like they are huge totems already. So, meh. What would change? Nothing really. It might be cool though, who knows. At the end of the day though, let's work on comparing apples and apples and oranges and oranges, rather than cross comparing and creating un-founded/misleading assumptions about the two.