Explain why Crown Store Potions are stronger than the ones I make.

PKMN12

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on this. It is really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this, so that leaves the only conclusion that they *did* know, and they were just testing the water to see how we'd react.

Someone complained? Crap, they're onto us. Duck and run.

Uh huh, sure. Anyone who says things like "it's really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this" has no idea how software updates and testing works.

When you're working to a schedule and deadlines (and you're always working to a schedule and deadlines) you never test everything. It's impossible. You test as much as you can based on the available resources, and you do as many test iterations as required, based on the number of builds that you have (and the number of builds always varies based on what portions of the code are available when, and what fixes need to be done that will require a new build).

Things get missed. Always.

In this particular case, it seems likely that they set it up so that it would be not quite as good as player-crafted potions at the levels that match the levels that players can craft potions (ie. level 3, 10, 20, 30, 40, VR1, VR5), but set it up to scale based on the level of the character using it. They probably failed to set a maximum level of VR5 for the potion to scale to, and missed that in their testing.

This is much more likely than the conspiracy theories... Especially as they pulled the potions right away as soon as someone mentioned it. If it was intentional then they would have said something like "well, player crafted ones are still better at the right levels, and even above VR5 they're better because player crafted potions can have up to 3 effects, and provide the buff for longer, but we hear your concerns and will change it accordingly".

Heh, wondered how long it'd take for the 'if you don't agree you don't understand it properly' argument. Good try, really, but that can only go so far.

All they had to do was compare two very unambiguous values to one another. So no dice. And as you say, they pulled it *very* quickly once it was mentioned. No 'hang on, let's have another look at this'. If you're telling me that doesn't smell fishy to you, then you don't understand it properly.

Did you miss the part where I explained that in any software release it's impossible to test everything, and as a result there will always be things missed? That part isn't speculation from me, that's based on my experience in IT working on software releases. Yes, all they had to do was compare values. Obviously they didn't, because they didn't get to test everything.

Yeah, sorry, but those values are REALLY easy to see, it is not like going into some deep code and seeing the numbers, the numbers are right there, in front of your face. You have to be pretty bad at testing to miss something like that. This means one of two things, ZOS is even MORE incompetant then they already seem to be, or they tried to sneak P2W potions into the store hoping no one would notice.

UrQuan

PKMN12 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on this. It is really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this, so that leaves the only conclusion that they *did* know, and they were just testing the water to see how we'd react.

Someone complained? Crap, they're onto us. Duck and run.

Uh huh, sure. Anyone who says things like "it's really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this" has no idea how software updates and testing works.

When you're working to a schedule and deadlines (and you're always working to a schedule and deadlines) you never test everything. It's impossible. You test as much as you can based on the available resources, and you do as many test iterations as required, based on the number of builds that you have (and the number of builds always varies based on what portions of the code are available when, and what fixes need to be done that will require a new build).

Things get missed. Always.

In this particular case, it seems likely that they set it up so that it would be not quite as good as player-crafted potions at the levels that match the levels that players can craft potions (ie. level 3, 10, 20, 30, 40, VR1, VR5), but set it up to scale based on the level of the character using it. They probably failed to set a maximum level of VR5 for the potion to scale to, and missed that in their testing.

This is much more likely than the conspiracy theories... Especially as they pulled the potions right away as soon as someone mentioned it. If it was intentional then they would have said something like "well, player crafted ones are still better at the right levels, and even above VR5 they're better because player crafted potions can have up to 3 effects, and provide the buff for longer, but we hear your concerns and will change it accordingly".

Heh, wondered how long it'd take for the 'if you don't agree you don't understand it properly' argument. Good try, really, but that can only go so far.

All they had to do was compare two very unambiguous values to one another. So no dice. And as you say, they pulled it *very* quickly once it was mentioned. No 'hang on, let's have another look at this'. If you're telling me that doesn't smell fishy to you, then you don't understand it properly.

Did you miss the part where I explained that in any software release it's impossible to test everything, and as a result there will always be things missed? That part isn't speculation from me, that's based on my experience in IT working on software releases. Yes, all they had to do was compare values. Obviously they didn't, because they didn't get to test everything.

Yeah, sorry, but those values are REALLY easy to see, it is not like going into some deep code and seeing the numbers, the numbers are right there, in front of your face. You have to be pretty bad at testing to miss something like that. This means one of two things, ZOS is even MORE incompetant then they already seem to be, or they tried to sneak P2W potions into the store hoping no one would notice.

IF you test them, and IF you test them with a character above VR5, yes. How are you still unclear on what I'm saying: in any software deployment you simply cannot test everything. It's impossible. It never happens. Obviously this is one of the things that they didn't test. That doesn't make them incompetent, it just means that they didn't get a chance to test this as part of their pre-go-live testing.

Ysne58

Urquan is correct about not being able to test everything. It's not even possible to anticipate some of this stuff before it actually happens, which is why it's good to report it so it can be checked out.

Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for making sure this got acted on so quickly. Communication is improving and I'm really happy to see that occurring.

Sinthrax

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

VR5 crafted potions will be weaker than VR5 crown potions.

VR14 crown potions may be stronger than VR5 crafted potions (because crown potions scale to your level).

We just need to be able to craft VR10 potions and then it won't be much of an issue.

You guys are worried about level comparisons. It doesn't matter in the scheme of things. The bottom line is at end game the crown store potion is better than the similar potion in game. Period.

Grigs

Barta057 wrote: »

It's like they want to make money off you or something, and the Crown Store doesn't exist out of the goodness of their heart or for Samaritan reasons! SHOCKING!

The game already costs $60

MorHawk

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on this. It is really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this, so that leaves the only conclusion that they *did* know, and they were just testing the water to see how we'd react.

Someone complained? Crap, they're onto us. Duck and run.

Uh huh, sure. Anyone who says things like "it's really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this" has no idea how software updates and testing works.

When you're working to a schedule and deadlines (and you're always working to a schedule and deadlines) you never test everything. It's impossible. You test as much as you can based on the available resources, and you do as many test iterations as required, based on the number of builds that you have (and the number of builds always varies based on what portions of the code are available when, and what fixes need to be done that will require a new build).

Things get missed. Always.

In this particular case, it seems likely that they set it up so that it would be not quite as good as player-crafted potions at the levels that match the levels that players can craft potions (ie. level 3, 10, 20, 30, 40, VR1, VR5), but set it up to scale based on the level of the character using it. They probably failed to set a maximum level of VR5 for the potion to scale to, and missed that in their testing.

This is much more likely than the conspiracy theories... Especially as they pulled the potions right away as soon as someone mentioned it. If it was intentional then they would have said something like "well, player crafted ones are still better at the right levels, and even above VR5 they're better because player crafted potions can have up to 3 effects, and provide the buff for longer, but we hear your concerns and will change it accordingly".

Heh, wondered how long it'd take for the 'if you don't agree you don't understand it properly' argument. Good try, really, but that can only go so far.

All they had to do was compare two very unambiguous values to one another. So no dice. And as you say, they pulled it *very* quickly once it was mentioned. No 'hang on, let's have another look at this'. If you're telling me that doesn't smell fishy to you, then you don't understand it properly.

Did you miss the part where I explained that in any software release it's impossible to test everything, and as a result there will always be things missed? That part isn't speculation from me, that's based on my experience in IT working on software releases. Yes, all they had to do was compare values. Obviously they didn't, because they didn't get to test everything.

Yeah, sorry, but those values are REALLY easy to see, it is not like going into some deep code and seeing the numbers, the numbers are right there, in front of your face. You have to be pretty bad at testing to miss something like that. This means one of two things, ZOS is even MORE incompetant then they already seem to be, or they tried to sneak P2W potions into the store hoping no one would notice.

IF you test them, and IF you test them with a character above VR5, yes. How are you still unclear on what I'm saying: in any software deployment you simply cannot test everything. It's impossible. It never happens. Obviously this is one of the things that they didn't test. That doesn't make them incompetent, it just means that they didn't get a chance to test this as part of their pre-go-live testing.

No, sorry man, PKMN12's right. You're pushing that logic way too far. I totally understand that they can't test for every permutation, that's unfeasible. This however, was a simple "does X = Y" question. This wasn't even an issue of testing, but of design. They had to get the numbers from somewhere. The fact that those numbers were unbalanced, again, betrays either a colossal level of inattention, or deliberate intent.

Rylana

Varicite wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Good god people, the crown potions were single stat

The crafted stuff is triple stat.

Like, to craft a crown store potion youd only use 2 reagents and a v14 water (if such a thing existed)

I really dont see what the fuss is about.

And if you did that you would never have possibly made a potion as good as the ones in the Crown store.

That's what the fuss was about.

Also, they specifically said that they weren't going to do exactly that, which is also part of what the fuss was about.

I really think youre missing the overall point

Lets try this another way.

Post the stats of a Healing+ tripot, or a panacea of spell power, or a panacea of spell crit, or a tristat potion of immovable, or even a potion of weapon crit or weapon power.

Then compare that to the crown potions.

And we will see why the whole argument is hilarious.

PROTIP - even if i had 1000 dollars to spend on crowns for the game youd never once see me take the tripots off my bar for a crown potion, period. No one in their right mind would, because while you might get about 500 more health... youre NOT getting 5000 stamina and magicka from the same button press.

And thats the point I am trying to make. the crown potions MAY be better than a drop panacea of health, magicka, or stamina, but they are NOT better than a crafted multistat potion of any type.

Also if youre wasting mats on a single stat potion, LOL

They did not mislead us, because the crown potions restore less than half of the stats of a tripot, less than 2/3 the stats of an immovable, about the same stats minus the spell power and spell crit boost of a spellpower, an so on.

Crafted potions were never in any danger.

Rylana

Skafsgaard wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Looks like the health pot is the only "superior" item. If people want to spend 10 bucks on a stack of these instead of crafting or using gold i say let subsidize your game for a while. Anyone who doesn't know that bi or tri pots is superior isn't really playing the game.

As already explained, its the principle.. and of course you're gonna tripots... untill they become available with 1k more stats - I mean on day 1 of relaunch they make a stronger HP potion (probably the most classic RPG consumable item in the world). It's iconic and it leads down a dangerous path.

Way too much speculation

Varicite

Rylana wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Good god people, the crown potions were single stat

The crafted stuff is triple stat.

Like, to craft a crown store potion youd only use 2 reagents and a v14 water (if such a thing existed)

I really dont see what the fuss is about.

And if you did that you would never have possibly made a potion as good as the ones in the Crown store.

That's what the fuss was about.

Also, they specifically said that they weren't going to do exactly that, which is also part of what the fuss was about.

I really think youre missing the overall point

Lets try this another way.

Post the stats of a Healing+ tripot, or a panacea of spell power, or a panacea of spell crit, or a tristat potion of immovable, or even a potion of weapon crit or weapon power.

Then compare that to the crown potions.

And we will see why the whole argument is hilarious.

PROTIP - even if i had 1000 dollars to spend on crowns for the game youd never once see me take the tripots off my bar for a crown potion, period. No one in their right mind would, because while you might get about 500 more health... youre NOT getting 5000 stamina and magicka from the same button press.

And thats the point I am trying to make. the crown potions MAY be better than a drop panacea of health, magicka, or stamina, but they are NOT better than a crafted multistat potion of any type.

Also if youre wasting mats on a single stat potion, LOL

They did not mislead us, because the crown potions restore less than half of the stats of a tripot, less than 2/3 the stats of an immovable, about the same stats minus the spell power and spell crit boost of a spellpower, an so on.

Crafted potions were never in any danger.

I'm not missing the point. I realize that tri-stat potions were better overall.

But on a 1:1 ratio, the Crown store potions were better than the comparable Alchemy potion. Why would I compare apples to oranges when the conversation is only about 2 apples?

Tripots are great in PvP, but are mostly a waste outside of PvP as you generally only focus on a single stat in PvE and also have healers. Why would I eat expensive Tripots if all I need is magicka? I wouldn't.

In those situations, cashmoney potions were always going to be the best choice, and that's exactly what ZOS said they wouldn't do. I commend them for actually doing what they said they would in this case. I hope maybe they'll extend that sentiment toward the future.

UrQuan

MorHawk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on this. It is really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this, so that leaves the only conclusion that they *did* know, and they were just testing the water to see how we'd react.

Someone complained? Crap, they're onto us. Duck and run.

Uh huh, sure. Anyone who says things like "it's really unbelievable that they weren't aware of this" has no idea how software updates and testing works.

When you're working to a schedule and deadlines (and you're always working to a schedule and deadlines) you never test everything. It's impossible. You test as much as you can based on the available resources, and you do as many test iterations as required, based on the number of builds that you have (and the number of builds always varies based on what portions of the code are available when, and what fixes need to be done that will require a new build).

Things get missed. Always.

In this particular case, it seems likely that they set it up so that it would be not quite as good as player-crafted potions at the levels that match the levels that players can craft potions (ie. level 3, 10, 20, 30, 40, VR1, VR5), but set it up to scale based on the level of the character using it. They probably failed to set a maximum level of VR5 for the potion to scale to, and missed that in their testing.

This is much more likely than the conspiracy theories... Especially as they pulled the potions right away as soon as someone mentioned it. If it was intentional then they would have said something like "well, player crafted ones are still better at the right levels, and even above VR5 they're better because player crafted potions can have up to 3 effects, and provide the buff for longer, but we hear your concerns and will change it accordingly".

Heh, wondered how long it'd take for the 'if you don't agree you don't understand it properly' argument. Good try, really, but that can only go so far.

All they had to do was compare two very unambiguous values to one another. So no dice. And as you say, they pulled it *very* quickly once it was mentioned. No 'hang on, let's have another look at this'. If you're telling me that doesn't smell fishy to you, then you don't understand it properly.

Did you miss the part where I explained that in any software release it's impossible to test everything, and as a result there will always be things missed? That part isn't speculation from me, that's based on my experience in IT working on software releases. Yes, all they had to do was compare values. Obviously they didn't, because they didn't get to test everything.

Yeah, sorry, but those values are REALLY easy to see, it is not like going into some deep code and seeing the numbers, the numbers are right there, in front of your face. You have to be pretty bad at testing to miss something like that. This means one of two things, ZOS is even MORE incompetant then they already seem to be, or they tried to sneak P2W potions into the store hoping no one would notice.

IF you test them, and IF you test them with a character above VR5, yes. How are you still unclear on what I'm saying: in any software deployment you simply cannot test everything. It's impossible. It never happens. Obviously this is one of the things that they didn't test. That doesn't make them incompetent, it just means that they didn't get a chance to test this as part of their pre-go-live testing.

No, sorry man, PKMN12's right. You're pushing that logic way too far. I totally understand that they can't test for every permutation, that's unfeasible. This however, was a simple "does X = Y" question. This wasn't even an issue of testing, but of design. They had to get the numbers from somewhere. The fact that those numbers were unbalanced, again, betrays either a colossal level of inattention, or deliberate intent.

No, I'm sorry, but you've obviously never worked in IT. The code would say something like (I'm writing this out logically for illustrative purposes): "restore X health for each level of character using the potion" while the code for a player-crafted potion would be something like "restore Y health for each level of the potion" and Y would be greater than X.

Without testing anything, odds are it wouldn't even occur to them to think about the fact that, because a crown store potion scales to the level of the player rather than the level of the potion, at levels higher than the max potion level it could heal more.

So you're right, they could just compare X to Y and see if the player-crafted number was higher than the crown store number. And obviously that wouldn't prevent what we saw happen with those potions.

Obscure

Crown potion < My potions

If I'm going to use a Health effect focused potion, I'm going to use my Ninja Potion (Blue Entomola, Namiras Rot, Water Hyacinth) to go invisible, boost speed, AND HEAL.

Crown store got nothing' on me brah.

Ysne58

I would use tri pots in PvE if I could make them, not able to yet because Alchemy not leveled.

Varicite

Obscure wrote: »

Crown potion < My potions

If I'm going to use a Health effect focused potion, I'm going to use my Ninja Potion (Blue Entomola, Namiras Rot, Water Hyacinth) to go invisible, boost speed, AND HEAL.

Crown store got nothing' on me brah.

Your argument is that the Crown store potion isn't as strong as an entirely different kind of potion? Seriously?

Why do people keep doing this? Why would you compare a Tripot to a normal health potion? Of course they are different.

Obscure

Varicite wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Crown potion < My potions

If I'm going to use a Health effect focused potion, I'm going to use my Ninja Potion (Blue Entomola, Namiras Rot, Water Hyacinth) to go invisible, boost speed, AND HEAL.

Crown store got nothing' on me brah.

Your argument is that the Crown store potion isn't as strong as an entirely different kind of potion? Seriously?

Why do people keep doing this? Why would you compare a Tripot to a normal health potion? Of course they are different.

Potions share a cool down. To use one is to forgo using another. They are exactly the same kind of item. The ONLY reason to ever use a health only potion is if you have NO ALTERNATIVE. I have alternatives...all of which make the Crown Potions look like hot sick garbage.

Varicite

Obscure wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Crown potion < My potions

If I'm going to use a Health effect focused potion, I'm going to use my Ninja Potion (Blue Entomola, Namiras Rot, Water Hyacinth) to go invisible, boost speed, AND HEAL.

Crown store got nothing' on me brah.

Your argument is that the Crown store potion isn't as strong as an entirely different kind of potion? Seriously?

Why do people keep doing this? Why would you compare a Tripot to a normal health potion? Of course they are different.

Potions share a cool down. To use one is to forgo using another. They are exactly the same kind of item. The ONLY reason to ever use a health only potion is if you have NO ALTERNATIVE. I have alternatives...all of which make the Crown Potions look like hot sick garbage.

Granted, I wouldn't have bought any of the potions on the Crown store regardless, but that doesn't mean that it's okay for them to be better than the comparable craftable version of the exact same potion.

Especially since ZOS specifically said that they wouldn't do exactly that.

I'm not even sure why we're still harping on the issue anyway, as they've already said that it was a mistake and they'd fix it. Whether that's the truth or not, the outcome is the same.

Obscure

Varicite wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Crown potion < My potions

If I'm going to use a Health effect focused potion, I'm going to use my Ninja Potion (Blue Entomola, Namiras Rot, Water Hyacinth) to go invisible, boost speed, AND HEAL.

Crown store got nothing' on me brah.

Your argument is that the Crown store potion isn't as strong as an entirely different kind of potion? Seriously?

Why do people keep doing this? Why would you compare a Tripot to a normal health potion? Of course they are different.

Potions share a cool down. To use one is to forgo using another. They are exactly the same kind of item. The ONLY reason to ever use a health only potion is if you have NO ALTERNATIVE. I have alternatives...all of which make the Crown Potions look like hot sick garbage.

Granted, I wouldn't have bought any of the potions on the Crown store regardless, but that doesn't mean that it's okay for them to be better than the comparable craftable version of the exact same potion.

Especially since ZOS specifically said that they wouldn't do exactly that.

I'm not even sure why we're still harping on the issue anyway, as they've already said that it was a mistake and they'd fix it. Whether that's the truth or not, the outcome is the same.

Hence my point. Even if they were better than junk Health only crafted potions, which ZOS is not going to let happen, no one with access to the objectively superior potions is going to buy them.

Regular crafted Health Pot = merchant junk
Crown Health Pot = paying $ for merchant junk
My pots = AWESOMESAUCE

Crown Stamina potion? Mine give speed, CC immunity, AND Stamina.
Crown Magicka potion? Mine have stealth detection, spell power boost, AND Magicka.
Crown Health potion? Mine give invisibility, speed, AND Health.

That's not even mentioning I have a potion that restores all three resources.

Crown potions aren't even in the same ball park for effectiveness... hell they aren't even in the parking lot to the ball park of my potions.