Should the Werewolf Ultimate be a toggle?

exiledtyrant

Ace_SiN wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Isn't werewolf down time fairly short if you invest in a full ultimate reduction build? You wouldn't be using your main skills line only your werewolf skills so you could fill your bars with ultimate gen and defensive abilities.

Being a sorc, with saviors hide 5 piece, and gift of potentates 3 piece set ( 2 rings and 2 armor pieces left for customization) you get 58% total ultimate reduction. That should take it down to 136 ultimate needed. That doesn't seem like it would take a long time while using the sword and shield ultimate gen buff.

Granted this setup locks up a class choice and weapon choice although you could swap over to dual wield for more weapon power before the transformation.

It's actually less than 188. I rerolled for a pure WW focused build. I'm a Sorc Redguard(for ult reduction and stam focused passives) and I'm currently sitting at 156 with just the salvation set. With that set added that should take me down to 126, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm still fleshing out my "King of Beasts" build though(and I'm not v14 with this char yet) to see if all of this will be competitive.

As you said though, this locks a lot of choices from you.

yea I actually listed the 58% reduction value by accident. I took ultimate values from the eso wiki so if it is less than 136 then more power to you. I don't play werewolves so I don't know how your duration vs your downtime is. The point I'm making is there are balance concerns to consider when you give someone more control over an ultimate with such a low potential cost.
I'd say if the form is under performing it needs buff on it's own and bleed damage in general needs to be fixed. With a 126 cost and the sword and shield buff people who build for werewolf should only be without a transformation for all of 20 or so seconds.

ScardyFox

Hellatruvios wrote: »

My conclusion is: No, I wouldn't bother making it a toggle. That would further reduce the attributes of the WW as it stands, just to cater to those who cannot utilize the 'skill' required for maintaining that timer.

-snip-

I disagree. I can stay in werewolf form very long time myself but still see a need for a toggle. As it stands we will never be competitive because it, as an ultimate, is a waste in comparisons to the wide array of truly awesome ultimates. It should be a toggle and we should have our own ultimates to use like Vampires.

The only chance we have of this happening is to keep screaming down the wall for it. Whats different now then the years that has past? They can make money off us. If they make the werewolf populace happy and stick around, let'm make all sorts of skins and whatnots to buy.

We have seen a huge boost in power in comparison to our initial birth into ESO. They listened (to what degree is debate), by the boost and abilities we've gotten thus far. Keep asking, keep making post, and keep making civil arguments on the matter. If they see we are oh-so keen on this they will see us as a new collection of $$$s to reap profits off of.

Ace_SiN

@ScardyFox

Agreed.

ZOS might be slow with the changes, but they have shown that they are listening(at least to some degree). The current state of the WW is leaps and bounds better than that joke of a WW we had at launch(I miss the old devour exploit though...)

We are still in need of some more defensive options though. Since they made call of the pack useless they should think about giving us a defensive passive to replace it and give us a defensive morph to replace Ferocious Roar(since it's also useless..).

Chrlynsch

Werewolf should be a toggle. Plain and simple no reason that it shouldn't be. Make the form punishible by the justice system for an interesting dynamic. And a lot of great things could come from tweaking the skills allocated to timer increase.

Though we haven't heard anything stated from @ZOS stating this is the route they will take, and they have said it before that toggle werewolf is impossible not possible if the timer is here to stay then this is what needs to change.

1. Devour needs tweaked: taking 3 sec out of a fight is just way to long for PVE, you loose valuable DPS which is already lacking from this ultimate. For PVP this is just suicide. Pvp NPC corpses dissappear within seconds and PC corpses will almost always release taking your meal and extra werewolf time with them. Make it a one second devour with no cooldown as long as your animation finishes you should get time added even if the corpse disappears

2. Werewolf running shouldn't cost any stamina or give us a mount stamina bar. What's the point in being able to move quickly if by the time you get there (if you have any werewolf time left) you don't have enough stamina to wag your tail.

3. Timer needs to be doubled, the time we have is way too little. And abilities related to timer need to double. what is the difference between pack leader rank 1 and rank 4?

4. We won't need stealth if we are on a timer but give us increased detection range. Hiding from a werewolf don't make no sense. Unless your a camouflaged hunter.

5. Why do you reset my ultimate after the effect ends? Do this to dragonknights when their standard ends, or at the end of a nova/negate/veil, and see how happy the community is. Don't alienate werewolf. Lower the cost and let us keep ultimate earned

This should get you started.

ScardyFox

Prothwata wrote: »

Werewolf should be a toggle. Plain and simple no reason that it shouldn't be. Make the form punishible by the justice system for an interesting dynamic. And a lot of great things could come from tweaking the skills allocated to timer increase.

Though we haven't heard anything stated from @ZOS stating this is the route they will take, and they have said it before that toggle werewolf is impossible not possible if the timer is here to stay then this is what needs to change.

1. Devour needs tweaked: taking 3 sec out of a fight is just way to long for PVE, you loose valuable DPS which is already lacking from this ultimate. For PVP this is just suicide. Pvp NPC corpses dissappear within seconds and PC corpses will almost always release taking your meal and extra werewolf time with them. Make it a one second devour with no cooldown as long as your animation finishes you should get time added even if the corpse disappears

2. Werewolf running shouldn't cost any stamina or give us a mount stamina bar. What's the point in being able to move quickly if by the time you get there (if you have any werewolf time left) you don't have enough stamina to wag your tail.

3. Timer needs to be doubled, the time we have is way too little. And abilities related to timer need to double. what is the difference between pack leader rank 1 and rank 4?

4. We won't need stealth if we are on a timer but give us increased detection range. Hiding from a werewolf don't make no sense. Unless your a camouflaged hunter.

5. Why do you reset my ultimate after the effect ends? Do this to dragonknights when their standard ends, or at the end of a nova/negate/veil, and see how happy the community is. Don't alienate werewolf. Lower the cost and let us keep ultimate earned

This should get you started.

This is all very well said.

Shadow

Yes very fell said. these technical issues they spoke of are very interesting, would like to know what they are. I mean we don't revert form in hircine's hunting grounds and the game doesn't end so it's possible.

Ace_SiN

Prothwata wrote: »

4. We won't need stealth if we are on a timer but give us increased detection range. Hiding from a werewolf don't make no sense. Unless your a camouflaged hunter.

I think this is the newest change I've seen suggested and I have to say I would love this. It bothers me that people can stealth away from me so easily. Sure I could use a detection pot, but then that would just further cut my sustain. Using Tri-Pots are a must if you want to make the WW more versatile.

Chrlynsch

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Prothwata wrote: »

4. We won't need stealth if we are on a timer but give us increased detection range. Hiding from a werewolf don't make no sense. Unless your a camouflaged hunter.

I think this is the newest change I've seen suggested and I have to say I would love this. It bothers me that people can stealth away from me so easily. Sure I could use a detection pot, but then that would just further cut my sustain. Using Tri-Pots are a must if you want to make the WW more versatile.

I feel your pain... I drink tri pots like a fish drinks water... Wait do fish drink water? Anyway I always love it when a nightblade stealths away from werewolves to unleash a volley of lethal arrows. Master hunters my sweet roll...

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

They really need to stop trying to sell us on the clearly nerfed Bloodrage as a valid way to maintain WW. Here's a scenario for you.

I'm soloing a delve boss that does alot of AOEs that are instant kills if I don't move. I have to keep moving constantly, but while said boss is casting attacks, I'm not getting hit. Boss may/maynot have adds supporting him that I can kill and eat, but most of the time they don't, so that's precious seconds ticking away that I can't regain or sustain because I'm not always taking damage. I might be able to kill the boss no problem, but say I can't in time and WW wears off and I'm momentarily stuck in a red insta-kill aoe spot. Boom dead. Tough cookies.

Either make it a toggle or increase the duration/time gained from eating. Or make it to where Bloodrage keeps you in WW as long as you are in combat and attacking/landing hits on the enemy. Unless WW duration is the sole cause of global lag in the game, it really shouldn't be that hard to do. The time I spend eating is time I should be spending DPSing, and another annoying thing is having bodies vanish just as you finish the eating animation.

Wolfchild07

Yes, toggle please!

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I am not against a toggle, but I personnaly believe the transformation should remain an ultimate with a cost otherwise it would be broken.

Let me give you an exemple to show you how broken a toggle (as an utility) could be.
Exemple :
Step 1 : DK Werewolf cast Standart of Might
Step 2 : DK Werewolf transforms into a Beast
Profit : DK Werewolf now deals 20% more dmg, while dealing a crap load of AoE dmg while its buffed with an additional 18% attack power + Hircine Rage pumping out even more dmg out of Standart of Might.

The Werewolf transformation should remain an ultimate with a cost, but players should be able to remain transformed as long as they see fit. The benefit for activating the ultimate beeing the Invulnerability frame + the mass PBAoE fear and the transformation abilities working out like a third weapon set. A second invulnerability frame should also be given to players whenever they decide to change back into their humanoid form to prevent accidental whipes because of "bad" luck.

It's an ultimate with a lot of verstility which can dish out a ton of punishement in little to no time while keeping decent surviability, utility and mobility. And in my humble oppinion, it should remain that way.

But before making it a toggle I would rather focus your attention on things which are more important to fix.
1) Ennemies immune to bleeding effects.
2) The lack of interaction with players while in WW form. (no Synergy unless WW, no Resurrection, etc)
3) Devour 4sec cast time making the skill counter intuitive in combat.

Those are for me the three priotities I would work on first to make WWs more enjoyable to play.

Ace_SiN

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

But before making it a toggle I would rather focus your attention on things which are more important to fix.
1) Ennemies immune to bleeding effects.
2) The lack of interaction with players while in WW form. (no Synergy unless WW, no Resurrection, etc)
3) Devour 4sec cast time making the skill counter intuitive in combat.

Those are for me the three priotities I would work on first to make WWs more enjoyable to play.

I can agree with this. I would also like the kinks to be worked out before any major changes happen.

I would add..

4) Light attacks proc enchant effects(currently only heavy procs the enchant)

5) Salvation set 5 pc bonus buffed to decrease WW ult cost by 40% - 50%.

6) Call of the Pack changed into a defensive passive. The current passive is a waste of points now. The timer is not much of a problem atm and relying on an ally to change at least 10 secs after you is just a clunky mechanic. I mean if it gave you 10 sec extra timer and a damage boost or HoT for x secs, then maybe I could accept it. We still could use a bit more defense either way though(lower the cost of the heal maybe?).

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

I really hope they give WW some attention. I want to make it work in PVP but given my oddball spec I'd die in seconds, but I want it to be an ult worthy of being used. Everyone and their mom uses Meteor currently despite the Valkyn Skoria nerf, and Stormie keeps getting pancaked the second I summon him. Maybe increase the resistance to physical damage and give a health boost similar to oldschool ES game WWs. I'd rather have the passive stam regen back too instead of "100% stam regained from heavy attacks". It doesn't seem to work nearly as well as advertised.

heinrich00

I think they should make an armor set that makes you stay in WW mode longer and maybe increases your health and stamina further while in it.

Ace_SiN

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I'd rather have the passive stam regen back too instead of "100% stam regained from heavy attacks". It doesn't seem to work nearly as well as advertised.

Well we have a passive 15% stam regen even when not transformed, but it's still not enough to handle the WW's sustain problems. I would like to see it increased by at least another 15% while transformed or to have the base cost of the WW skills reduced. This sustain issue is equally true for our heal. You'll get about 2 heals in before you go oom and unless you get a crit you will not even heal yourself for 1/3 of your hp per(if you're heal debuffed you're screwed). I feel like Regen food is a must to pull off WW after building my WW Redguard Sorc. I've recently decided to hit the drawing board again though with a different race/class combo for a dedicated WW build.

The sad truth is that the champion system fixes most of our issues, as a far as numbers are concerned, but I don't think we should be balanced for 500+ champion points later.

liquid_wolf

Right now my werewolf form lasts long enough to complete an entire quest-chain that involved killing Commanders and their NPC minions. I think I was in werewolf for 5 minutes eating kills and staying topped off on the meter. Took me two minutes to get the ultimate back again, but then I was transformed.

In PvE questing areas, I don't really think werewolf needs to be a toggle... it seems to work very well. Dungeons, delves, and PvP it might need it. Simply because the mechanic becomes clunky trying to stay in werewolf form.

Imagine in PvP trying to eat corpses like that? Just wouldn't work in a tense situation.
In dungeons, you begin pushing the group faster instead of maintaining a steady pace.

And if you get caught transforming at a bad moment? you are probably dead or someone else is.

For normal PvE questing, I really like how werewolf works. For everywhere else? It just feels like a gimmick. If they want that ultimate to remain a transformation with a counter, then more ways to regain werewolf time need to be implemented.

Such as maintaining high DPS, or killing targets (targets hit by you die within x seconds) in rapid succession in PvP. Something that does away with the need to eat in tense situations where you can't simply stop. Some kind of kill buff that stacks and increases time, or decreases the rate at which your transformation drains.

Add a minute per kill? stacks up to a maximum of 20? Disappears when you turn back to normal.

Faugaun

Just now trying put werewolf (level 4) and my sustain sucks (hoping its a matter of more skills and exp and not l2p) ....but from a newbie to ww a toggle seems great. At vr 2 it does an impressive amount of DPs compared to my stamina dk build with same character/gear. Part of my problem it l2p didn't know heavy regen we timer (thought it would regen stam).

Ace_SiN

Honestly the timer is not a huge issue anymore, at least it's not in PvP. I have yet to get lower than half of my WW timer before each fight is over(in small scale PvP at least). In sieges it's not too smart to use WW unless you suicide into their backlines and take a few guys out. I usually do this just before a push is made as the WW can dish out some great dps and this makes most panic. The Blood Rage passive fixed a lot of the timer issues when combined with Feral Pounce(please don't use the terrible pack leader morph in PvP.. I cringe every time I see a white WW).

One of biggest issue Werewolves face atm is their sustain. We can stay in form for the longer engagements now, but we're usually sitting under 20% stam(and probably magicka) and struggling to manage. This changes if you use regen food and focus on stam recovery gear, but then you'll be a joke against magic sorcs, since your dps will be too low to burst their shield.

Also, we're still too easily kited(although manageable if microed correctly). Baking a snare into Pounce would go a long way. If we get snared we're practically screwed and having to keep spamming pounce against kiters only makes it worst on us for stat management.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Werewolf absolutely needs to be a toggle and one of the skill line's morphs needs to be an AoE taunt.

Sylveria_Relden

Having played both Vampire and Werewolf- I never really understood why Werewolf is the only out of the two that MUST toggle in order to use the abilities conferred.

My opinion is both should have toggle- or both should not. I said this in another thread (something about Vampires wanting more improved abilities or whatever) as well.

The only "passive" ability the Werewolf gets outside of transformation is a meager +15 to stamina regen- which is also easily gained with a food bonus, racial or potion, etc. Vampires, on the other hand- get all sorts of abilities they can use without even transforming.

To me, this is imbalanced- but this horse has been flogged many times before and it will continue to be disagreed by many (especially those who are Vampires and wish to defend their positions) for many cycles to come.

Ace_SiN

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Having played both Vampire and Werewolf- I never really understood why Werewolf is the only out of the two that MUST toggle in order to use the abilities conferred.

Well Werewolf doesn't inherently NEED to be a toggle. It's just that the Werewolf loses all of its versatility while transformed(unlike any other playstyle in the game) and thus leaving the user more vulnerable, for only a small spike in dps, while being the most expensive ULT in the game. Why put yourself at such a huge risk when you can drop a meteor on someone for a cheaper cost? Or, use Ferocious Leap, Death Stroke, Cloud Swarm, etc for a far cheaper cost, while still having a lot of killing power, without any loss of versatility(and in some cases gaining some considering the added utility).

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

My opinion is both should have toggle- or both should not. I said this in another thread (something about Vampires wanting more improved abilities or whatever) as well.

There are key differences between Vamp and WW. For starters, one is an ult and the other isn't. While you're technically a WW while in human form, it's still a skill that must be activated in order for you to access the Werewolf skill line. Secondly, the vamp doesn't lose ANY versatility and you can still access ALL of your other skill lines with your two weapons of choice. That's why vamps have been successful since day 1, despite receiving 50% more damage from the most common damage source in the game. The WW loses the benefits of all weapon passives, class/weapon buffs, and anything else that helps you sustain in a tough fight. Also, If you made Bat Swarm a toggle it would be like launch all over again.

Ace_SiN

I would like to bring up an issue that I touched on in my above post.

Why do we lose access to our weapon passives?

Seriously, this alone would be a HUGE improvement.. Our defenses are terrible, so imagine if I could change while using a sword/board. I not only gain the added defense, but I also would be able to effectively block without killing my stam on the first two hits. Or, if I'm using a two hander I would gain a much needed 30% stam when I killed someone.

I just don't understand why WW is the most expensive and "unique" ult in the game.. No other ult kills off your versatility this much. I mean even Overload still leaves you access to your buffs AND it's a toggle(and a cheap one at that).


Also, We gain 672 armor when we transform. Why do we gain only ~1% physical damage mitigation at the cost of 300 ult(201 with salvation set)? The WW transformation should grant the user the Major Resolve and Major Ward.

Chrlynsch

I really don't understand the reason to keep werewolf chained up... pvp or pve.

1. We do not have a boost to dps... show me the highest dps WW and I'll show you 100 builds able to obtain higher dps
2. We do not have more survivability. We gain 1% armor... we get 40% poison damage/8% increase from all players FG passives. and then you have fighters guild abilities, ouch... so much for that mystical pelt.
3. Our special abilities we unlock by transforming are the most expensive in the game... Our sustain is horrible.

@eso has stated that they are happy with WW ultimate. And are not going to change it from the current model.



Remove the cost of all the WW abilities... This would allow us to use our stamina for running, roll dodging, break free.

Other tweeks

1. Shorten the devour animation to 1 sec. And have it max out our timer. We are not hungry. .. we just want to feed our bloodlust.
2. Poison damage: decreased to 20% but in both forms. I'm tired of all the werewolf Humanoids... getting pros and no cons.
3. Pursuit: changed to reduced sprint cost.

Hypertionb14_ESO

it could be, but people would toggle spam it to fear.

so inital cost to activate, then a duration drain on ultimate.

ability to turn off to save remaining ultimate.

suggestions for costs.

100 inital transform cost, then 10 ult each second after. (you would need at least 200 ult for the transformation to be viable in duration)

CP5

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I understand in a previous ESO Live that you got information from the devs responsible for the werewolf skill line that they felt it was in a good spot. I would be interested if, after viewing the information in this thread and in game examples that they would feel the same way.

Currently the werewolf is simply an expensive ultimate that removes a massive amount of your reversibility for what *may be a somewhat existent damage buff, and only for melee range. No other ultimate requires 21 skill points to bring to its full potential and the people who use the transformation, at least from my knowledge, aren't using it for a dps buff. I would be interested if the devs could provide their criteria as to what makes them say werewolves are fine, and also why the Beserker doesn't have their own color when both the in game art assets and color changing framework are already in game.

Edit:

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

They really need to stop trying to sell us on the clearly nerfed Bloodrage as a valid way to maintain WW. Here's a scenario for you.

I'm soloing a delve boss that does alot of AOEs that are instant kills if I don't move. I have to keep moving constantly, but while said boss is casting attacks, I'm not getting hit. Boss may/maynot have adds supporting him that I can kill and eat, but most of the time they don't, so that's precious seconds ticking away that I can't regain or sustain because I'm not always taking damage. I might be able to kill the boss no problem, but say I can't in time and WW wears off and I'm momentarily stuck in a red insta-kill aoe spot. Boom dead. Tough cookies.

Either make it a toggle or increase the duration/time gained from eating. Or make it to where Bloodrage keeps you in WW as long as you are in combat and attacking/landing hits on the enemy. Unless WW duration is the sole cause of global lag in the game, it really shouldn't be that hard to do. The time I spend eating is time I should be spending DPSing, and another annoying thing is having bodies vanish just as you finish the eating animation.

This is something that has bothered me with the passive, but hey, you are only forced to go against the design of the game to maintain your transformation.

Sylveria_Relden

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Having played both Vampire and Werewolf- I never really understood why Werewolf is the only out of the two that MUST toggle in order to use the abilities conferred.

Well Werewolf doesn't inherently NEED to be a toggle. It's just that the Werewolf loses all of its versatility while transformed(unlike any other playstyle in the game) and thus leaving the user more vulnerable, for only a small spike in dps, while being the most expensive ULT in the game. Why put yourself at such a huge risk when you can drop a meteor on someone for a cheaper cost? Or, use Ferocious Leap, Death Stroke, Cloud Swarm, etc for a far cheaper cost, while still having a lot of killing power, without any loss of versatility(and in some cases gaining some considering the added utility).

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

My opinion is both should have toggle- or both should not. I said this in another thread (something about Vampires wanting more improved abilities or whatever) as well.

There are key differences between Vamp and WW. For starters, one is an ult and the other isn't. While you're technically a WW while in human form, it's still a skill that must be activated in order for you to access the Werewolf skill line. Secondly, the vamp doesn't lose ANY versatility and you can still access ALL of your other skill lines with your two weapons of choice. That's why vamps have been successful since day 1, despite receiving 50% more damage from the most common damage source in the game. The WW loses the benefits of all weapon passives, class/weapon buffs, and anything else that helps you sustain in a tough fight. Also, If you made Bat Swarm a toggle it would be like launch all over again.

The point of my post- is that one needs to be accessed through another "ability" (toggle, ultimate whatever you want to "label" it as) while the other does not. The ONLY ability WW's get is the stamina regen outside of transformation.

Vamps gain ALL the abilities of being a vampire without having to transform. I'd accept WW's poison disability to be able to use some of WW's abilities outside of transform, no problem- else I think vamp needs to be brought in line in terms of equal balance here.

Do we really want to list out a chart of comparison?

Gizzarduk

Surely they could add this as a unlock costume when you become a WW, just make sure when you toggle it you get the morph. Job done.

phreatophile

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

i think you werewolves should get a toggle, period, not as a ultimate, the ultimate should be summoning some ww buddies or some regular wolves. however this comes at a price, a locked set of ablilities, nerfed of course to make up for the true, nonulti toggle, and you would get a bounty for using it in public. thats at least my take on it, but im a vamp, so i dont understand the WW struggle

This is exactly what I think! Nice.

MrGhosty

I would like to see it be a toggle like the sorc ability where using your skills would burn the charge out to balance how those skills are supposed to be stronger than normal. This makes it usable for players who want the appearance side of things but with using the skills burning out the charge staying a super strong werewolf in combat would be as sustainable as it currently is.

Beyond the Min/Max players, a lot of people went werewolf for the lore of it and the timer really does put a hamper on things where Vampires are vamps all the time.

Iduyenn

Dont you guys find it strange, that noone from Zos gives us answers? (After half a year of begging and asking... Again..)