[Forum Suggestion] Adding Back the Disagree Option

Taz

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

How about we leave it just like it is? Facebook has no dislike button. Why bother with something people will simply abuse?

Taking the facebook example, I cant begin to tell you the amount of self-righteous circle-jerking I've seen that results from only having an agree button. I'll... leave it at that before the PTSD sets in again.

I see the same thing happen to forums as well. IMO there should be buttons for both or none at all. Both agreements and disagreements should elaborate their positions, but there's nothing inherently disrespectful about disagreeing. And disagree posts can be just as one-liner-ish as agree posts. Why only put in an option for mindless agreement?

Both or none is my vote. I just don't think having only agreements has worked out. I'd love to point out specific examples but I can't, for the purposes of civil discussion.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Taz wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

How about we leave it just like it is? Facebook has no dislike button. Why bother with something people will simply abuse?

Taking the facebook example, I cant begin to tell you the amount of self-righteous circle-jerking I've seen that results from only having an agree button. I'll... leave it at that before the PTSD sets in again.

I see the same thing happen to forums as well. IMO there should be buttons for both or none at all. Both agreements and disagreements should elaborate their positions, but there's nothing inherently disrespectful about disagreeing. And disagree posts can be just as one-liner-ish as agree posts. Why only put in an option for mindless agreement?

Both or none is my vote. I just don't think having only agreements has worked out. I'd love to point out specific examples but I can't, for the purposes of civil discussion.

You can just ignore them. Not read their posts.

Nyteshade

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

That is just low hanging fruit for trolling!

As for a disagree button, meh, I prefer folks actually bother to have an opinion then write out that opinion supported by their premises. A disagreement without a statement as to why is meaningless. In fact, get rid of the agree button also. DO we need to be so lazy?

Taz

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You can just ignore them. Not read their posts.

You can ignore the amount of disagrees as well. However, should someone seek to pull out a, "Well twenty people agree so ZOS MUST implement this," you can offer up a yes, I understand, but 21 people disagree, so let's dissect the issue at hand, what works and doesn't work, instead of relying on those numbers.

Or, as suggested above, not have those numbers at all!

Audigy

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Please no Gina.

It will only be abused to harass valid concerns of your community members. If you want to see how such a system can fail, then go over to the game we don't speak of. Its a mess, very good posts are buried because of trolls that have nothing else to do than down voting everyone but themselves.

I grew tired of not seeing full discussions as half the posts were buried, its a really bad idea I am sorry.

I don't think we need any negativity buttons at all at this forum. Lets face it, people are unable to act properly and will abuse them to grief and harass. Don't let them do it.

What we have now is totally fine and sufficient.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Taz wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You can just ignore them. Not read their posts.

You can ignore the amount of disagrees as well. However, should someone seek to pull out a, "Well twenty people agree so ZOS MUST implement this," you can offer up a yes, I understand, but 21 people disagree, so let's dissect the issue at hand, what works and doesn't work, instead of relying on those numbers.

Or, as suggested above, not have those numbers at all!

I certainly hope ZOS is more professional than to judge an idea based on how many agrees or disagrees it has on this forum. Please someone from ZOS tell me thats now how you make decisions? Why not just use a magic 8-ball if thats the case.

dharbert

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Why not just use a magic 8-ball if thats the case.

.....or have a meeting with select guilds and let them alter the course of the game. Oh wait, they already do that.

Taz

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I certainly hope ZOS is more professional than to judge an idea based on how many agrees or disagrees it has on this forum. Please someone from ZOS tell me thats now how you make decisions? Why not just use a magic 8-ball if thats the case.

I'm sure they're professional enough not to do that. What I'm saying is, the argument of the person who is agreed with is "this is the number of agrees I have so I demand this happen or else you're not listening to the community" is as negative as any use of the disagreement button could be. It's not about ZOS listening or not listening to the argument at hand- they're adults and can weigh the pros and cons themselves, to this I'm not arguing. I'm only saying that posters themselves will use that argument of numbers, which doesn't contribute to any discussion because there's no balance to such an argument. It's just reinforcing a mob mentality and then producing outrage that so many people agree so why are we not getting this? And people stop being civil very, very quickly.

I suppose polls sometimes try to provide this option to see what the general consensus is (for the small test sample, anyway), but why would you put up a poll offering disagreement if you're trying your best to prove that everyone's on your side?

Turelus

Samadhi wrote: »

Pressing a downvote/disagree button is neither disrespectful nor griefing.

Yet we had to remove the LOL button because people would spam players who had ideas against their own with it.
I honestly don't feel the majority of this community have proved it's mature enough to have a dislike button.

I understand what Taz is saying and I agree it would be nice to see what the feeling is for both sides of a post, however like the LOL button I see it just becoming something spammed on every post where people want to make the person feel unwanted.

Snit

Those buttons are more a communication between the clicker and the poster than some indication of "the wisdom of crowds." If I click "insightful," that's just me wanting the poster to know that at least one anonymous whoever thought it was well worth the read. It satisfies the urge for interaction, that's all. It doesn't mean ZOS needs to go do it, even if a bunch of others do the same.

If you want to evaluate the worth of a post, you need to read it and think about its content, not count who clicked what.

k9mouse

dharbert wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Down votes hiding a post? Absolutely not. That only invites trolls to downvote posts and keeps opinions from being heard. Players have the right to voice their opinion, popular or not. I can't believe you'd even consider that.

I feel the same way,

Slurg

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

People are going to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet. If there is a "Disagree" button, just like they did with the "LOL" button, those people who are griefers will use that button for that purpose.

If people disagree enough with someone's post, they should have the moral courage to post, state as much, and state why. People should be able to see the name of the poster who is disagreeing wtih the poster. If people don't disagree with a post enough to post why, then they should just remain silent. Otherwise there will be guilds banding together to spam the "Disagree" button.

Same sort of thing happened on the LotRO forums...

Silence is golden among children and griefers, and griefers should neither be seen nor heard. Giving them a "Disagree" button or a "LOL" button again contributes to harassment more than anything else.

Bang 'em together if you disagree... or remain silent and respectful of others' opinions.

I can appreciate your point of view and I wish people always behaved this way, but the issue as I see it is that too many people resort to namecalling and personal attacks in heated discussions when they feel they have no choice other than to type something to register their disagreement with an idea.

If someone disagrees with me and can't be nice about it I'd much rather see +1 disagree than a nasty personal attack that I will feel compelled to flag for moderation. I only have so many spots on my ignore list after all. And while some people may be ok with a lot of people being banned from the forums because they get overly emotional sometimes, I think that our community is stronger for having a diversity of opinions, even if some members have a hard time expressing them civilly sometimes.

I would want to see a disagree button that merely registers disagreement with that post and does nothing else. We don't need a count on our profile of how many disagrees we've received. Certainly nothing that hides a post for being unpopular. Just something that says nope, this post is something I do not agree with.

Samadhi

Turelus wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Pressing a downvote/disagree button is neither disrespectful nor griefing.

Yet we had to remove the LOL button because people would spam players who had ideas against their own with it.
I honestly don't feel the majority of this community have proved it's mature enough to have a dislike button.

I understand what Taz is saying and I agree it would be nice to see what the feeling is for both sides of a post, however like the LOL button I see it just becoming something spammed on every post where people want to make the person feel unwanted.

You mean in a manner similar to how people spam agrees on any posts that disagrees with posts they do not like, rather than take the time to make posts themselves?

If keeping everyone from feeling "unwanted" by the invisible masses is the goal, then the agree button needs to be removed as well.

Egonieser

Disagree would work fine, but it should ask to provide a reason like you do in a poll.
If you disagree, explain yourself, if you disagree just for the sake of a disagreeing, remain silent. Simples!

Audigy

Slurg wrote: »

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

People are going to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet. If there is a "Disagree" button, just like they did with the "LOL" button, those people who are griefers will use that button for that purpose.

If people disagree enough with someone's post, they should have the moral courage to post, state as much, and state why. People should be able to see the name of the poster who is disagreeing wtih the poster. If people don't disagree with a post enough to post why, then they should just remain silent. Otherwise there will be guilds banding together to spam the "Disagree" button.

Same sort of thing happened on the LotRO forums...

Silence is golden among children and griefers, and griefers should neither be seen nor heard. Giving them a "Disagree" button or a "LOL" button again contributes to harassment more than anything else.

Bang 'em together if you disagree... or remain silent and respectful of others' opinions.

I can appreciate your point of view and I wish people always behaved this way, but the issue as I see it is that too many people resort to namecalling and personal attacks in heated discussions when they feel they have no choice other than to type something to register their disagreement with an idea.

If someone disagrees with me and can't be nice about it I'd much rather see +1 disagree than a nasty personal attack that I will feel compelled to flag for moderation. I only have so many spots on my ignore list after all. And while some people may be ok with a lot of people being banned from the forums because they get overly emotional sometimes, I think that our community is stronger for having a diversity of opinions, even if some members have a hard time expressing them civilly sometimes.

I would want to see a disagree button that merely registers disagreement with that post and does nothing else. We don't need a count on our profile of how many disagrees we've received. Certainly nothing that hides a post for being unpopular. Just something that says nope, this post is something I do not agree with.

The thing with buttons in general is that they will be pushed. You can now argue that this is what they are for and yes that's true, but in reality they will limit ourselves to a simple and secure "click".

Nobody will know if you clicked disagree, just the number will grow over time. Users can hide even more behind their anonymity and that anonymity will always bring the worst out in people.
I find that really bad for a community, as obvious discussions will just be avoided by clicking a button. FB has hardly any real discussions, as people only click the thumbs up. Same with YT videos, I saw Videos there with 20000 votes, but hardly more than 20 comments...

I remember a thread that I made half year ago or so. It had a lot of positive remarks by others and they also used the positive buttons and used to comment. Yet it had about 10-20% of LOL´s, a button that was used as a discredit button for more than a year. Those that hit the button didn't dare to comment, maybe because they didn't had any arguments or because they felt not strong enough to present theirs.

It did limit the whole thread into a more / less very positive judgment towards my intentions, even though some people obviously didn't like my argumentation.

For me personally, a forum should serve as a platform to talk and not click any buttons. That said, I am from the past (does this make any sense? ) so my view might be a bit rusty.

nerevarine1138

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Not a fan.

If there were issues in beta with the Disagree button being trolled, I can only imagine that trolling with downvotes to hide posts would become the forum activity du jour.

It's been shown time and time again that there are too many forum users who refuse to play nicely with the buttons. So if you guys want to just scrap them altogether, that would probably be more beneficial than giving the trolls an even better toolset.

Darlgon

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Downvote to make the post disappear? Well.. only if upvotes can bring the post back to seen again, or an option to choose to hide downvoted items. Ita and invitation for trolls to knock posts down. (Say a DC wants to congratulate an emp, yet both EP and AD dont like him,, so they down vote him into Oblivion.:0P)

Now.. if it would move the POSTS up and down in the thread, always putting the cream at the top,, and not the first actual post.. hmm.. That would be fun on some of these 60 page theads...

Saltypretzels

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

I give you an up vote for this.

danovic

It is more important to say why you disagree then to just click a disagree button or downvote button. This forum has many trolls that i've seen who would just disagree with everything just to *** off the poster which is very unproductive. It is fine the way it is and if someone just gives one line disagree's thats trolling.

someuser

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

@ZOS_GinaBruno I have had a bad experience with such a system. On the Tomshardware.com they did a crappy review of ESO when it was first released. After calling out the managing editior on the poor review (respectfully) legions of fan boys down voted my post and it was hidden... and eventually deleted (months later). Again, I was not flaming or attacking, just pointing out my point of view.

I personally think posts should never be hidden as, just being a vet around here, have seen many valid posts blasted with LoLs just because, frankly, some nerds like to have nerd wars.

I personally liked the LoL and the idea of "Disagree" though. Not that it is always productive, but my "fix" would be to allow everyone who LoL'ed a post to have their names (screen names of course) revealed when hovering over the lol / disagree option. I think the anonymousness of the LoL (or disagree) is the biggest down fall to those systems.


just my two cents for what they are worth.

Elsonso

I am sticking with the idea to remove everything except for Agree and declare victory.

I don't see a need for any buttons, particularly anonymous ones, and a voting system will probably be even worse. If there has to be more than "Agree" then just remove them all. Anything other than Agree will be abused, even if it is called Disagree.

I disagree button, even when paired with an agree button, will be abused. It is just the nature of the internet. Anonymous actions are like free candy to some people.

Ysne58

Personally, I think all the buttons should be removed. It's too easy to troll for starters. It doesn't really do anything positive even when the op in a thread gets more than 250 agrees.

Turelus

Samadhi wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Pressing a downvote/disagree button is neither disrespectful nor griefing.

Yet we had to remove the LOL button because people would spam players who had ideas against their own with it.
I honestly don't feel the majority of this community have proved it's mature enough to have a dislike button.

I understand what Taz is saying and I agree it would be nice to see what the feeling is for both sides of a post, however like the LOL button I see it just becoming something spammed on every post where people want to make the person feel unwanted.

You mean in a manner similar to how people spam agrees on any posts that disagrees with posts they do not like, rather than take the time to make posts themselves?

If keeping everyone from feeling "unwanted" by the invisible masses is the goal, then the agree button needs to be removed as well.

Point taken, I can't really argue with that.

Egonieser wrote: »

Now.. if it would move the POSTS up and down in the thread, always putting the cream at the top,, and not the first actual post.. hmm.. That would be fun on some of these 60 page theads...

I would want an option to turn this off though. I want to read forums as traditional forums where posts following a structured order and oldest to shortest. For those looking for a more Reddit style system with up and down votes then Reddit is an option.

dharbert

Seeing as how Reddit is apparently the official forum for ESO, just go there.

snowmanflvb14_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

the problem with the down vote system is it would bring back the trolls that were on the forums towards the end of beta. You know the ones who would ask a factual question receive the factual response then go crazy and vote disagree with any post no matter how factual if it did not fit their original rant. As an example

OP asks why is there no LFG tool. Receives the response that there is a lfg tool and how to use it. That response then is flooded with disagrees by the OP and anyone wanting to slam the game.

Wasn't that situation one of the reasons you all removed the disagree option to start with.

wraith808

Samadhi wrote: »

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

People are going to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet. If there is a "Disagree" button, just like they did with the "LOL" button, those people who are griefers will use that button for that purpose.

If people disagree enough with someone's post, they should have the moral courage to post, state as much, and state why. People should be able to see the name of the poster who is disagreeing wtih the poster. If people don't disagree with a post enough to post why, then they should just remain silent. Otherwise there will be guilds banding together to spam the "Disagree" button.

Same sort of thing happened on the LotRO forums...

Silence is golden among children and griefers, and griefers should neither be seen nor heard. Giving them a "Disagree" button or a "LOL" button again contributes to harassment more than anything else.

Bang 'em together if you disagree... or remain silent and respectful of others' opinions.

Pressing a downvote/disagree button is neither disrespectful nor griefing.

Not by design. In practice, however...

DisgracefulMind

#GiveMeLOLorGiveMeDeath

Vyle_Byte

I don't agree with down thumbs hiding posts. Trolls will troll, that's all I have to say about that.

Islyn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Nice - but I still think we need LOL back.

It was fun.

Islyn

Audigy wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Good feedback, @Taz. It's something we're currently exploring, along with the possibility of having an up vote and down vote system (where enough down votes would hide a post). What do you guys think about that?

Please no Gina.

It will only be abused to harass valid concerns of your community members. If you want to see how such a system can fail, then go over to the game we don't speak of. Its a mess, very good posts are buried because of trolls that have nothing else to do than down voting everyone but themselves.

I utterly disagree with your post because when each person only gets one vote - if a thread gets downvoted it is because a LOT of individuals did not like what that post had to say.

Instead I think 'adults' should be more responsible with their point of view rather than doing nothing but complaining over little things like losing to another player - like 90% of PVP posts are at the moment.

Also as for LOL buttons - I come read to relax and I LIKE to be in a forum with fun. This forum I like less and less every time I come here.