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In Cyrodiil and Trials: Disable CS, limit skill points and scale characters to v1

spoqster
spoqster
✭✭✭✭✭
There are many posts detailing the problems with the current vertical Champion System. Unfortunately, now with Mar 17 around the corner there is no time to properly rework the Champion System to be more horizontal. This a suggestion that would not delay the release much, yet could solve many of the problems.

In Cyrodiil and Trials: Scale characters to v1, limit skill points to a certain amount (e.g. 50) and disable the Champion System.
  • This would solve the xp-based imbalances in PVP and level the playing field, while players can still play with their PVE characters.
  • This would make leader boards fair, because all players compete under the same conditions.
  • Players would still have to play the PVE RPG to unlock the max number of skill points by leveling up and/or finding skyshards.
  • The number of skill points has to be chosen so that players feel powerful enough, yet have to make meaningful choices.
  • New players will be scaled up to v1. They would not have as much skill diversity and passives as a player with max skill points and not the best gear, but they would at least have the same attributes and damage modifiers.
  • This would be a good preparation for removing the veteran ranks.

In short: This way players will get the proper RPG, infinite progression experience in the Elder Scrolls part of the game and get a fair, sports-like PVP and Trials experience at the same time.

Possible counter arguments:
  • Players will feel less powerful in PVP and Trials than in the ES part of the game: The feeling of being powerful comes partly from the skills and partly from knowing how to use them well. I think the latter part is more important. A smart choice for the number of allowed skills will go a long way in making players feel powerful, yet forcing them to make hard choices between offence and defence.
  • Pure PVP players will not have access to an infinite progression system: This can be solved by improving on the gear progression system, making PVP ranks more meaningful by introducing a weak hierarchy system and by awarding vanity rewards for PVP achievements, such as armor skins, titles, name plates, mounts, etc.
Edited by spoqster on February 27, 2015 9:04AM
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  • DezIsDead
    DezIsDead
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    spoqster wrote: »
    There are many posts detailing the problems with the current vertical Champion System. Unfortunately, now with Mar 17 around the corner there is no time to properly rework the Champion System to be more horizontal. This a suggestion that would not delay the release much, yet could solve many of the problems.

    In Cyrodiil and Trials: Scale characters to v1, limit skill points to a certain amount (e.g. 50) and disable the Champion System.
    • This would solve the xp-based imbalances in PVP and level the playing field, while players can still play with their PVE characters.
    • This would make leader boards fair, because all players compete under the same conditions.
    • Players would still have to play the PVE RPG to unlock the max number of skill points by leveling up and/or finding skyshards.
    • The number of skill points has to be chosen so that players feel powerful enough, yet have to make meaningful choices.
    • New players will be scaled up to v1. They would not have as much skill diversity and passives as a player with max skill points and not the best gear, but they would at least have the same attributes damage modifiers.
    • This would be a good preparation for removing the veteran ranks.

    In short: This way players will get the proper RPG, infinite progression experience in the Elder Scrolls part of the game and get a fair, sports-like PVP and Trials experience at the same time.

    Possible counter arguments:
    • Players will feel less powerful in PVP and Trials than in the ES part of the game: The feeling of being powerful comes partly from the skills and partly from knowing how to use them well. I think the latter part is more important. A smart choice for the number of allowed skills will go a long way in making players feel powerful, yet forcing them to make hard choices between offence and defence.
    • Pure PVP players will not have access to an infinite progression system: This can be solved by improving on the gear progression system, making PVP ranks more meaningful by introducing a weak hierarchy system and by awarding vanity rewards for PVP achievements, such as armor skins, titles, name plates, mounts, etc.

    IMO, since they are already nerfing grinding to hell, they should just do away with VR ranks with the launch of 1.6. VR was a bad idea from the get go, and i know alot of people who quit the game just because they didnt want to grind anymore, despite the fact that at the time it was fairly easy to get to vr10, then vr14. if your going to make it so difficult to get to vr14, then just remove the ranks already. But i can imagine how big of a headache that would be.
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  • Exstazik
    Exstazik
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    [/quote]

    IMO, since they are already nerfing grinding to hell, they should just do away with VR ranks with the launch of 1.6. VR was a bad idea from the get go, and i know alot of people who quit the game just because they didnt want to grind anymore, despite the fact that at the time it was fairly easy to get to vr10, then vr14. if your going to make it so difficult to get to vr14, then just remove the ranks already. But i can imagine how big of a headache that would be.[/quote]

    grind to v14 is nothing compare to grind all CP.VR levels will gone after console(or with) release.But you will need to grind 3600CP(1440 vr levels).Also don't forget about "gear seasons" .... seems gear in future will be require some X amount of CP to wear it.

    I can understand that the game should be equal in prices for all.....but not all have the equal salary in different countries.That's why developers and advertising Managers differentiate prices for countries.....but ZOS not

    402 CP






  • DezIsDead
    DezIsDead
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    Exstazik wrote: »

    IMO, since they are already nerfing grinding to hell, they should just do away with VR ranks with the launch of 1.6. VR was a bad idea from the get go, and i know alot of people who quit the game just because they didnt want to grind anymore, despite the fact that at the time it was fairly easy to get to vr10, then vr14. if your going to make it so difficult to get to vr14, then just remove the ranks already. But i can imagine how big of a headache that would be.[/quote]

    grind to v14 is nothing compare to grind all CP.VR levels will gone after console(or with) release.But you will need to grind 3600CP(1440 vr levels).Also don't forget about "gear seasons" .... seems gear in future will be require some X amount of CP to wear it.

    [/quote]

    o no i know the CP grind will be brutal, and sadly ZOS intended it that way. hence the nerfing of XP grinds in 1.6. my point is just do away with it, make it so all xp gained after vr1 or "lvl 50" is just CP, and dont make us grind 14 "veteran levels" for no reason except a few skill points and attribute points. we cant get away from the champion points grind, at least let us get away from the veteran grind

    also im aware that CP points can only be earned at VR lvl. so whats the point of VR lvls then? were already earning CP points, why have 14 more levels.
    Edited by DezIsDead on February 27, 2015 8:12AM
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    I really like the background idea, but disabling the CS would really hurt costumization and the incentive to obtain XP boosts. This makes it difficult and undesirable for ZOS to implement. I however do think they need to do something against the vast power difference between 3600 and 0 CSP, otherwise the first couple of days/weeks as V1 will be a nightmare.
    Edited by Sublime on February 27, 2015 10:31AM
  • kkampaseb17_ESO
    kkampaseb17_ESO
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    I completely disagree with this proposition. Like the above poster said it will hurt customization and incentive to get CPs in general. Why do I need all those fancy passive for content that I can already faceroll.....

    Also I do not understand the whole grind mentality. It is a long term progression....just play the game and gain CPs as you go through.....You don't have to finish up those CPs in a year.
  • asteldian
    asteldian
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    So what is the point in char progression? Your idea means you may as well remove CP and VR from the game. I guess balance wise it is good, but for many there is no point in playing anymore.
    The grind for CP is epic because you are not supposed to grind, simply acquire as you play. All content can be done without CP and only uber competitive guilds will grind to 'be the best'. For the rest they are simply a little reward to further improve your char. By the time you have a few hundred CP the difference between a capped player and not is very small. It is only the difference between very few and a capped player that is significant
  • dharbert
    dharbert
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    This is one of, if not the most, laughable ideas that I have ever seen on this forum.
  • Syntse
    Syntse
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    LOL
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  • Mos-De-Atmo
    Mos-De-Atmo
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    I'm not sure I agree but it does have to be said that Backwater Blade the non-Vet PVP is really great and provides a relatively even playing field, albeit with other problems. So I can see where the idea came from. Maybe have a separate campaign?
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  • spoqster
    spoqster
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    I'm not sure I agree but it does have to be said that Backwater Blade the non-Vet PVP is really great and provides a relatively even playing field, albeit with other problems. So I can see where the idea came from. Maybe have a separate campaign?
    That's a great idea! It's a good way to test my idea without risking much. If that equal-level campaign becomes more popular and helps the game: Great. If I (and many others) am wrong and people don't mind xp-based imbalance, then this equal-level campaign can be removed after a few months.

    @ZOS_PaulSage, what do you say? :-)

    ps. The same could be done for trials, by introducing separate leaderboards for those players who choose to do the trials under equal conditions.
    Edited by spoqster on February 27, 2015 9:42AM
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  • actosh
    actosh
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    Whats next? After that u call for identical equipment, skillset and weapons?

    Could be fun...but dont expect many to give a **** about it.
  • Syntse
    Syntse
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    TehMagnus wrote: »
    How about...
    no.



    had to add
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    Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
    Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
    Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    I'd say for hardmode in trials and a special campaign you have a fixed amount of CP.
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  • kelly.medleyb14_ESO
    kelly.medleyb14_ESO
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    The game is mind numbingly easy to level to v14 spend less time whining about it and just do it.
  • spoqster
    spoqster
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    With Deltia's thread getting so much traction, this feels like an appropriate time to throw in this idea again.
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  • tplink3r1
    tplink3r1
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  • Kemosabe2point0
    Great idea.
  • F7sus4
    F7sus4
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    spoqster wrote: »
    In Cyrodiil and Trials: Scale characters to v1, limit skill points to a certain amount (e.g. 50) and disable the Champion System.
    No. You don't need Champion Points to run around the freakin' city or to kill trash-mobs in the area. It's the competitive end-game that you need CP for.

    A proper description of how utterly dumb this idea is would most likely infringe forum rules, so I'll leave it as it is now. Hinted.
    spoqster wrote: »
    • This would make leader boards fair, because all players compete under the same conditions.
    This idea is based on artificial assumption that all players would ever compete on the same conditions. Which will never be true.

    Be it nimble fingers, be it reaction time, be it character building capabilities, be it generalized playing skill - Champion Points will not cover any of the above, they just add another (and the only non-human) factor - which could be both balancing and/or favoring, depending on your own capabilities. (And since Champion Points are non-human factor, everyone can get them, while not everyone might be smart, quick etc. So yes, that's more than completely fair!)

    <3
    Edited by F7sus4 on July 11, 2015 12:22PM
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  • spoqster
    spoqster
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    spoqster wrote: »
    In Cyrodiil and Trials: Scale characters to v1, limit skill points to a certain amount (e.g. 50) and disable the Champion System.
    No. You don't need Champion Points to run around the freakin' city or to kill trash-mobs in the area. It's the competitive end-game that you need CP for.

    A proper description of how utterly dumb this idea is would most likely infringe forum rules, so I'll leave it as it is now. Hinted.
    spoqster wrote: »
    • This would make leader boards fair, because all players compete under the same conditions.
    This idea is based on artificial assumption that all players would ever compete on the same conditions. Which will never be true.

    Be it nimble fingers, be it reaction time, be it character building capabilities, be it generalized playing skill - Champion Points will not cover any of the above, they just add another (and the only non-human) factor - which could be both balancing and/or favoring, depending on your own capabilities. (And since Champion Points are non-human factor, everyone can get them, while not everyone might be smart, quick etc. So yes, that's more than completely fair!)

    <3

    Before you insult someone else's idea as being stupid, please spend some time to think about your comments.

    This time, I'll do it for you.
    • Champion Points are a vertical progression system. Vertical progression systems are the carrot element traditionally included in single player RPGs. Obviously you don't need them in PVE, but technically you don't need levels in PVE either. Game developers include these mechanics into PVE, because they are afraid that the content itself is not enough to ensure long term motivation. And long-term motivation is the whole purpose of the Champion System. To quote Paul Sage at QuakeCon, ZOS wanted to "allow players to work towards character progression with everything that they do".
    • Skill-focused multiplayer games traditionally don't have vertical progression systems. Look at shooters, sports games, etc. Competitive players dislike vertical systems because vertical progression rewards you for the wrong things. It doesn't reward you for playing skill, but rather for invested time. It's bad enough that such mechanics gives bad players to be better without having to improve their skill, the worst part is that these mechanics allow already good players who have the luxury to invest more time than others to become over powered freaks, which makes the game boring for everyone.
    • And yes, people are different. If you have a bad leg or you are 5'5", you probably won't go play basketball much. And if you have bad hand-eye coordination, you'll probably not become the best PvPer in ESO. Fair does not mean that everyone should be able to invest time or money to be as powerful as a more skilled player. Fair means that players compete on a level playing field and their abilities decide the outcome of the game. Just imagine a basketball game where one team's hoop is bigger than the other's. A system like the Champion System is technically equivalent to a mechanic where you would earn the right to a smaller and smaller hoop, by spending more time at basketball practice without actually training. Thinking about it like that illustrates how ridiculous it really is to use vertical progression mechanics in multiplayer games.
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    While I certainly enjoy the costumization of V14 and the CS, I also think this is a pretty good idea. But since I doubt everybody would like to give up his power I'll quote a more reasonable implementation:
    ToRelax wrote: »
    I'd say for hardmode in trials and a special campaign you have a fixed amount of CP.

    This makes sure that the competitive aspects of the game are won through skill and not stats, which I think probably fits the mindset of progressive players.
  • F7sus4
    F7sus4
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    spoqster wrote: »
    Obviously you don't need them in PVE, but technically you don't need levels in PVE either. Game developers include these mechanics into PVE, because they are afraid that the content itself is not enough to ensure long term motivation.
    No leveling means no character development. If that's your solution, perhaps you're in a wrong place, discussing wrong game-genre.
    spoqster wrote: »
    Competitive players dislike vertical systems because vertical progression rewards you for the wrong things. It doesn't reward you for playing skill, but rather for invested time. It's bad enough that such mechanics gives bad players to be better without having to improve their skill
    Not really. Having "power", but not having proper player-skills to actually use it means you're just another Average-Joe anyway. (And since the game is targeted towards Average-Joes, they actually need more "power" like new skills, new ranks etc. to be able to notice any progress of theirs at all.)
    spoqster wrote: »
    Fair means that players compete on a level playing field and their abilities decide the outcome of the game.
    Perhaps you should play Chess and not RPGs/MMORPGs. But even then someone would argue that one person is more intelligent than the other one, thus having "better stats", thus "more power", which is "not fair" etc. Blah-blah-blah.
    spoqster wrote: »
    This time, I'll do it for you.
    I wouldn't recommend doing something for other people while you can't do it just for yourself, but anyway - the effort was much appreciated. Thank you! :)
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  • Etharian
    Etharian
    ✭✭✭
    spoqster wrote: »
    There are many posts detailing the problems with the current vertical Champion System. Unfortunately, now with Mar 17 around the corner there is no time to properly rework the Champion System to be more horizontal. This a suggestion that would not delay the release much, yet could solve many of the problems.

    In Cyrodiil and Trials: Scale characters to v1, limit skill points to a certain amount (e.g. 50) and disable the Champion System.
    • This would solve the xp-based imbalances in PVP and level the playing field, while players can still play with their PVE characters.
    • This would make leader boards fair, because all players compete under the same conditions.
    • Players would still have to play the PVE RPG to unlock the max number of skill points by leveling up and/or finding skyshards.
    • The number of skill points has to be chosen so that players feel powerful enough, yet have to make meaningful choices.
    • New players will be scaled up to v1. They would not have as much skill diversity and passives as a player with max skill points and not the best gear, but they would at least have the same attributes and damage modifiers.
    • This would be a good preparation for removing the veteran ranks.

    In short: This way players will get the proper RPG, infinite progression experience in the Elder Scrolls part of the game and get a fair, sports-like PVP and Trials experience at the same time.

    Possible counter arguments:
    • Players will feel less powerful in PVP and Trials than in the ES part of the game: The feeling of being powerful comes partly from the skills and partly from knowing how to use them well. I think the latter part is more important. A smart choice for the number of allowed skills will go a long way in making players feel powerful, yet forcing them to make hard choices between offence and defence.
    • Pure PVP players will not have access to an infinite progression system: This can be solved by improving on the gear progression system, making PVP ranks more meaningful by introducing a weak hierarchy system and by awarding vanity rewards for PVP achievements, such as armor skins, titles, name plates, mounts, etc.

    lol , smokin dat crak again
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