(PvP) Healing Through Walls, and healing priority over damage Unbalanced.

cozmon3c_ESO

I personally believe healing through walls is an unbalanced part of the game, i asked eric wrobel about this directly and he said "it was in place because sometimes people fall off of cliffs and go around walls". well i cant shoot people through walls or when they fall off cliffs. this disparity really hurts pvp, and can be exploited to no end (healers hiding under stairs healing people on the second floor, or behind trees and rocks, lol). Heals should be line of sight just like damage, it will only promote better balance in a game where heals are extremely powerful as it is already (5% hp to full in 2 seconds, seriously??).

Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance.

so healing should be line of sight to be balanced with damage, and heals should not take priority over damage and should be which ever hits first.

Suru

Do you even heal bruh? As a healer you get focused and you have a job. Thats to not die and heal. If we can survive we do it by means possible. Its just strategic use of the landscape. Heals are extremely powerful but you know what? Any AoE Heal is still capped at 6 people while ALL damage is uncapped. I'm sure thats compensation enough. Sorry that healers are doing their jobs on the battlefield and getting better at it.

ToRelax

Suru wrote: »

Do you even heal bruh? As a healer you get focused and you have a job. Thats to not die and heal. If we can survive we do it by means possible. Its just strategic use of the landscape. Heals are extremely powerful but you know what? Any AoE Heal is still capped at 6 people while ALL damage is uncapped. I'm sure thats compensation enough. Sorry that healers are doing their jobs on the battlefield and getting better at it.

Neither is all damage uncapped nor should it matter in most situations wether healing is uncapped, as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening and stacking up on top of each other makes for boring gameplay.

Snit

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

Mumyo

Yeah its pretty obvious u never healed. Its a tough job, u are easily focused and u waste all ur magicka healing targets which suffer from healing debuffs and dont cleanse.

Curragraigue

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

I personally believe healing through walls is an unbalanced part of the game, i asked eric wrobel about this directly and he said "it was in place because sometimes people fall off of cliffs and go around walls". well i cant shoot people through walls or when they fall off cliffs. this disparity really hurts pvp, and can be exploited to no end (healers hiding under stairs healing people on the second floor, or behind trees and rocks, lol). Heals should be line of sight just like damage, it will only promote better balance in a game where heals are extremely powerful as it is already (5% hp to full in 2 seconds, seriously??).

Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance.

so healing should be line of sight to be balanced with damage, and heals should not take priority over damage and should be which ever hits first.

That doesn't sound like an issue of damage/heal priority but an issue of lag either for you or the person you are hitting. I've seen it happen on a regular basis as someone who heals and suffers lag. It sometimes takes 1-2 seconds for commands to execute for me so what you are seeing is the server trying to catch up.

I agree with Suru there are plenty of trade offs for healing through walls. Should also note that weapon heals like healing springs are line of sight it is class skills of the Temp that are not. The relative high magicka cost of Temp heals like BoL is another balancing factor.

cozmon3c_ESO

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

Aimelin

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Dredlord

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

its not skill that is keeping healers alive

you're right bra its lack of skill that's keeping them alive...

DezIsDead

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

I personally believe healing through walls is an unbalanced part of the game, i asked eric wrobel about this directly and he said "it was in place because sometimes people fall off of cliffs and go around walls". well i cant shoot people through walls or when they fall off cliffs. this disparity really hurts pvp, and can be exploited to no end (healers hiding under stairs healing people on the second floor, or behind trees and rocks, lol). Heals should be line of sight just like damage, it will only promote better balance in a game where heals are extremely powerful as it is already (5% hp to full in 2 seconds, seriously??).

Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance.

so healing should be line of sight to be balanced with damage, and heals should not take priority over damage and should be which ever hits first.

this is mechanic everyone who has ever healed PvP has used. its not an issue IMO. in swtor i would make my toon as small as possible and shove myself in tiny little corners to heal. your second issue i agree with wholeheartedly. but ive never noticed it, maybe i need to review some of my game clips to see.

cozmon3c_ESO

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

danno8

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

I think you should go back and look at your own video. There were several other reds still around at the 15:50 mark, and at least one of them was casting heals also. The healer you were focussing was using LoS pretty effectively also.

The healer dies at 16:18 mark, after around 20 seconds of actual 5:1 focusing, not the 2 minutes you said.

Merlin13KAGL

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

Dredlord wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

its not skill that is keeping healers alive

you're right bra its lack of skill that's keeping them alive...

@Dredlord , actually, I think you may be right...

@cozmon3c_ESO , your average DPS here is around 170 and with your movement, the video does not show what E1 is using to heal.

If the other four hitting on him have similar DPS, and especially if E1 is a templar, 1000 hps is not unheard of.

Far as I could tell, you were trying to burn him down with one of these:

Epic music does not an Epic fight make.

Timer are timers. With the exception of lag, a tick, whether healing or damage, is either ready or it's not.

AoE should be AoE (if it's in range and not specifically ground based, it should count. This goes for upstairs, downstairs, or otherwise. I've certainly been blasted by mage guards through 2' of masonry with zero line of sight by arrows and magic attacks on more than one occasion.

HoTs are HoTs, DoTs are DoTs and should remain regardless of terrain, once placed.

eliisra

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@cozmon3c_ESO , your average DPS here is around 170 and with your movement, the video does not show what E1 is using to heal.

If the other four hitting on him have similar DPS, and especially if E1 is a templar, 1000 hps is not unheard of.

Far as I could tell, you were trying to burn him down with one of these:

Epic music does not an Epic fight make.

I also looked thoroughly, still didn't see any of those hard-hitters. Buncha fat sustain-builds with S&B perma-blocking, slowly walking around while trying to keep up with someone kiting them around rocks and threes. No dmg...Mage's Fury on full health targets isn't dps, that's trying to proc CF. So where was the dps? I could have tanked that on my squishy NB even, just Ward, Sap and Harness, rolling around and feeling awesome.

How about watching a video of a DK fighting 10 players instead, they actually get kills in the process. Cant say the same for that templar that managed to survive 5 wannabe tank spec's solo for about 20 sec or so.

cozmon3c_ESO

Your right havoc has like six healers, but we only have one.
Ok this whole video here is done with one templar healer, lyric. Yes she is a great templar but we should not be able to stand up to these numbers with one healer.

This whole video demonstrates it, and best at 15:30 to pretty much the end of the video. This is the power of one templar healer, with me supporting with healing wards on low health allies.
http://youtu.be/scIvJHM7Nxo

Healing is easy mode in this game with strong 'smart' heals, to where you only need one healer.

Aimelin

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

you're not doing alot of casting on him/her tho, and as other people pointed out, someone else was throwing out some heals.

considering with warlock set & tri pots, its possible to do this, granted LoS helped him/her out quite abit too.

then again i don't expect you to do much dmg with sword/shield as a casting sorc, specially if you keep trying to spam your finisher / curse here & there for a frag proc

cozmon3c_ESO

eliisra wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@cozmon3c_ESO , your average DPS here is around 170 and with your movement, the video does not show what E1 is using to heal.

If the other four hitting on him have similar DPS, and especially if E1 is a templar, 1000 hps is not unheard of.

Far as I could tell, you were trying to burn him down with one of these:

Epic music does not an Epic fight make.

I also looked thoroughly, still didn't see any of those hard-hitters. Buncha fat sustain-builds with S&B perma-blocking, slowly walking around while trying to keep up with someone kiting them around rocks and threes. No dmg...Mage's Fury on full health targets isn't dps, that's trying to proc CF. So where was the dps? I could have tanked that on my squishy NB even, just Ward, Sap and Harness, rolling around and feeling awesome.

How about watching a video of a DK fighting 10 players instead, they actually get kills in the process. Cant say the same for that templar that managed to survive 5 wannabe tank spec's solo for about 20 sec or so.

I'm obviously not the hard hitter lol, im a sorc. Hard hitters are the nightblades like Murdo, M'sargo, Benz, King of Thieves, they start and I cc and finish off people.

cozmon3c_ESO

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

you're not doing alot of casting on him/her tho, and as other people pointed out, someone else was throwing out some heals.

considering with warlock set & tri pots, its possible to do this, granted LoS helped him/her out quite abit too.

then again i don't expect you to do much dmg with sword/shield as a casting sorc, specially if you keep trying to spam your finisher / curse here & there for a frag proc

I do enough damage and barely die.
http://youtu.be/qa88nmsm1sY

And thanks for pulling this thread off topic attacking the damage I can do.

Roselle

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Your right havoc has like six healers, but we only have one.
Ok this whole video here is done with one templar healer, lyric. Yes she is a great templar but we should not be able to stand up to these numbers with one healer.

This whole video demonstrates it, and best at 15:30 to pretty much the end of the video. This is the power of one templar healer, with me supporting with healing wards on low health allies.
http://youtu.be/scIvJHM7Nxo

Healing is easy mode in this game with strong 'smart' heals, to where you only need one healer.

I hardly doubt you guy would have done so well against stronger opposition. It's almost painful to watch everyone pretty much just stand there.

You may think the automated firing of the smart healing system is easy, but there are many times where I'd trade that for actual targeting.

They can take out the whole healing through walls feature, or leave it in. I don't think it's a factor that will make or break good healers.

Merlin13KAGL

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

as average dps should be higher than hps so endless fights arent happening

Alternately, crowd control and focus fire work, particularly when applied directly to the healer.

funny you say that, in one of my videos for 1.5.8 we were beating on a healer with 5 people , so 5v1, at the end of a large fight, this person just would not die and took about 2 minutes after we killed her buds to take her down. im glad that healing is taking a 15% cut in cyrodiil but it doesnt fix the issue of healing through walls or that it gets priority over in coming damage. its not skill that is keeping healers alive, its the crutch of getting that priority over damage. plus healing to full faster then 5 people can dish out damage. the people i run with are some of the hardest hitting players in the game.

link vid pls?

Starting @ 15:22 erwin-one, heals more powerful then 5 people hitting on him.
http://youtu.be/lmZIBufYOCo

you're not doing alot of casting on him/her tho, and as other people pointed out, someone else was throwing out some heals.

considering with warlock set & tri pots, its possible to do this, granted LoS helped him/her out quite abit too.

then again i don't expect you to do much dmg with sword/shield as a casting sorc, specially if you keep trying to spam your finisher / curse here & there for a frag proc

I do enough damage and barely die.
http://youtu.be/qa88nmsm1sY

And thanks for pulling this thread off topic attacking the damage I can do.

I really don't think it's the intention of anyone to pull your thread off topic, nor to attack you.

If I understand your perspective, you are saying that templars are OP healers due their 1vX survivability and provide two different videos to support this.

In the first, there is limited continuous observation of what/how/who is going on. Makes it difficult to surmise anything.

Neither is your DPS being attacked, as again, it's impossible to see the DPS your group members are putting out. It is enough, apparently, or E1 would never go down.

In the second video, I assume you are demonstrating your suvivability w/templar support. (The video becomes hazy around the 15' mark, so again, hard to see everything that is going on.)

Again, not attacking, just observing. Your shield (orange bar) and your health rarely drop. This is not due to OP templar abilities, this is due to the fact that no one is really focusing you down.

What you're doing works for you. Nothing wrong with that. You are not set up to be the 'heavy hitter,' you're set up for support with some added DPS. Nothing wrong with that either.

However, I think in both circumstances, the first being truly focusing down E1 (and possibly whoever was assisting) and in the second, more than one individual focusing down you, the results would be very different.

There are some really good players out there with really good combinations and survivability. It's hard to gauge.

At the end of the run, if you've taken out more of them than they have of you, and you've enjoyed yourself, then that is what matters.

Derra

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

...
Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance...

I´m not going to comment on the topic in a whole but on this specific point you made. From my perspective this not the games fault bc of healing having priority over dmg but due to the "***" mechanic of the sorcerer execute skill (atleast i´ve only encountered it with mages fury).

Mages furys execute part is a debuff that does not get checked often enough. It gets checked when the skill is applied (>20% life results in instant explosion) and than every 0.x or even only every second (don´t know really) when its on the target.
However if the initial dmg tick of your mages fury puts the enemy from 21 to 19% it will not explode instantly but with a delay that enables the victim to heal up during that period (hots will mostly suffice here mostly bc of furys low dmg).
This is why i absolutly hate the sorcerer excecute when comparing it to 2h, nb, or dw mechanics. It happens almost every fight.

Tankqull

Derra wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

...
Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance...

I´m not going to comment on the topic in a whole but on this specific point you made. From my perspective this not the games fault bc of healing having priority over dmg but due to the "***" mechanic of the sorcerer execute skill (atleast i´ve only encountered it with mages fury).

Mages furys execute part is a debuff that does not get checked often enough. It gets checked when the skill is applied (>20% life results in instant explosion) and than every 0.x or even only every second (don´t know really) when its on the target.
However if the initial dmg tick of your mages fury puts the enemy from 21 to 19% it will not explode instantly but with a delay that enables the victim to heal up during that period (hots will mostly suffice here mostly bc of furys low dmg).
This is why i absolutly hate the sorcerer excecute when comparing it to 2h, nb, or dw mechanics. It happens almost every fight.

but due to the delayed effect it qite often execzuutes a target that would have escaped with every other finisher. cant count the times where my curse drops the target below 20% out of LOS or range and its finished by our delayed execute (it lasts 4 sec btw. the "check" time is 0.5 sec)

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Your right havoc has like six healers, but we only have one.
Ok this whole video here is done with one templar healer, lyric. Yes she is a great templar but we should not be able to stand up to these numbers with one healer.

This whole video demonstrates it, and best at 15:30 to pretty much the end of the video. This is the power of one templar healer, with me supporting with healing wards on low health allies.
http://youtu.be/scIvJHM7Nxo

Healing is easy mode in this game with strong 'smart' heals, to where you only need one healer.

sure healing is easymode with this bloody useless targeting system. but nonetheless healing is not the culprit - its actually blocking and rolling reducing the effective dps of everybody below 150.
and especially with 1.6 or the age of elder scoolls of rolling comming at us this will become even more obvious.
things that needs to be changed from my perspective is a general reduction of dmg reduction by blocking, and the exclusion of spell projectiles from the shield passiv deflect bolts. and on top the revertation of the dodge cost reduction by medium armor - the cp cost reduction is more than enough.
i allways wanted to cry when my rare crystal frag critical hits ( which would deal 1k+ dmg) are reduced by blocking to 69dmg...

Derra

Tankqull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

...
Another issue with healing is that it is given priority over damage, i know im not the only one who notices this. you get your target to executable range, you cast your execute but the game gives the target 2 seconds to get a heal off and your execute never connects and there back at full life for the 20th time. Neither damage nor healing should take priority over the other, it should be 1 to 1, which ever hits first should happen first. again bringing the game into better balance...

I´m not going to comment on the topic in a whole but on this specific point you made. From my perspective this not the games fault bc of healing having priority over dmg but due to the "***" mechanic of the sorcerer execute skill (atleast i´ve only encountered it with mages fury).

Mages furys execute part is a debuff that does not get checked often enough. It gets checked when the skill is applied (>20% life results in instant explosion) and than every 0.x or even only every second (don´t know really) when its on the target.
However if the initial dmg tick of your mages fury puts the enemy from 21 to 19% it will not explode instantly but with a delay that enables the victim to heal up during that period (hots will mostly suffice here mostly bc of furys low dmg).
This is why i absolutly hate the sorcerer excecute when comparing it to 2h, nb, or dw mechanics. It happens almost every fight.

but due to the delayed effect it qite often execzuutes a target that would have escaped with every other finisher. cant count the times where my curse drops the target below 20% out of LOS or range and its finished by our delayed execute (it lasts 4 sec btw. the "check" time is 0.5 sec)

Well. I can´t count the times where a different finisher mechanic (or even .1s instead of .5) swould have just killed the target outright 20 seconds earlier - i think we can safely agree to disagree here.

How can a target escape you btw? I´ve not have that happen to me yet.