Heavy armor viable yet?

bosmern_ESO

In ESO I've always wanted to be able to use heavy armor competitively, mainly because I don't like being squishy and I love the look of it.

I saw heavy get buffs but I haven't tried it yet in pvp really, mainly because I ran out of resources way to fast (when I had 3.6k CP and when I didn't). So I wanted to know if anyone else has tried heavy armor, if it was any better. It seems like it's only good for blocking for a short amount then going back to having no resources to put up a fight, which really should be the case.

I'm tired of using light armor because In live you will be more of a tank in 7/7 light armor then someone 7/7 heavy armor, and be able to actually kill people.

Sphinx2318

no

Krision

3600 CP , heavy armor is great!

Basically immortal in 1x1.
I verified this in the PTS

LtCrunch

I was wearing 5 heavy/2 light on my Sorc build on the PTS and wasn't really having any resource issues, without any CP spent.

madangrypally

Depends on build. I think Heavy Armor is viable for some but not the majority of players. Heavy Armor is much much more viable now then before IMO.

Can not ignore set bonuses either on some of the heavy armor sets. For some these sets can offer something to the build that light/medium armor sets can not offer.

So it will really depend on build and available sets. Also the more CPs a player has the more flexible it becomes to build your character.

EnOeZ

Heavy got buffed in (passive) mitigation but nerfed DPS-wise (juggernaut) and resource-wise (constitution).

Since total mitigation is both passive and active and that the later one is the more important by far, if you are looking for competitive pvp you should still avoid Heavy, the most unfriendly pvp armor since release.

It is still the worst of all three armors for both offense AND (total) defense in PVP (unless you have 24/7 pocket healer or are casual PVPer).

bosmern_ESO

Brandalf wrote: »

I was wearing 5 heavy/2 light on my Sorc build on the PTS and wasn't really having any resource issues, without any CP spent.

Are you sure?

On my templar, 1 immovable costs like 40% of my stamina, and one breath of life is like 30% of my magicka...

Snit

Heavy will be the 2 in a whole lot of 5/2 setups.

LtCrunch

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

I was wearing 5 heavy/2 light on my Sorc build on the PTS and wasn't really having any resource issues, without any CP spent.

Are you sure?

On my templar, 1 immovable costs like 40% of my stamina, and one breath of life is like 30% of my magicka...

Yes, I'm sure. I went through Ruins of Kardala 4 different times solo and never went OOM on my Sorc, hell didn't even come close.

madangrypally

Brandalf wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure. I went through Ruins of Kardala 4 different times solo and never went OOM on my Sorc, hell didn't even come close.

All depends on how the character is built. Heavy Armor will have its uses and is not as bad as people say. IMO Heavy Armor is better for PvE non end game then it is for Trials/PvP but even then it can be made to work.

Once resource management is no longer needed due to champion points then heavy armor gets even better. The passives need some work to make them better IMO though.

LtCrunch

madangrypally wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure. I went through Ruins of Kardala 4 different times solo and never went OOM on my Sorc, hell didn't even come close.

All depends on how the character is built. Heavy Armor will have its uses and is not as bad as people say. IMO Heavy Armor is better for PvE non end game then it is for Trials/PvP but even then it can be made to work.

Once resource management is no longer needed due to champion points then heavy armor gets even better. The passives need some work to make them better IMO though.

I think that's true for pretty much any type of complaint on these forums, sometimes it's quite trying to wade through the extreme hyperbole IMO.

lathbury

In the testing I have done I have used full heavy set tanking and have had no problems with upper crag wb's and spellscar trash. I was also using 5 med 2 heavy on my dd spec and again no issues however my main is a bosmer nb so I have stam regen in combat passives.

EnOeZ

madangrypally wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure. I went through Ruins of Kardala 4 different times solo and never went OOM on my Sorc, hell didn't even come close.

All depends on how the character is built. Heavy Armor will have its uses and is not as bad as people say. IMO Heavy Armor is better for PvE non end game then it is for Trials/PvP but even then it can be made to work.

Once resource management is no longer needed due to champion points then heavy armor gets even better. The passives need some work to make them better IMO though.

If you're talking PVE, heavy is ok and obviously now good for it's supposed use : tanking.

If you're talking competitive PVP, well it depends on how "competitive" you are...

For competitive players (the very good ones) it is just the worst of all three armor types, because resource in TESO is THE limitating factor to skill.

CS can help but not at the point where you could be more competitive in another armor + armor/spell resistance buff.

You cannot mathematically consistently outbrain and outplay others when you run dry on resources in just a few moves, however good your skill is. That's why 1vX videos will continue to be seen in light and now medium armor only.

The only "tricks" possible : avoid melee and stamina (you will be even more starved and frustrated), go magicka and ranged and somehow use low cost abilities and/or MANY resource-regen mechanics, abuse potions...), do not go full heavy...

Once again PVE is another matter since it is scripted (and therefore easier than PVP as soon as you/raid leader get it).

The ones who say "it is viable" in PVP simply do not know what competitive gaming is.

ZOS PVP design for heavy armor is just -sadly- inexistant and ignorant of PVP realities in front lines, especially for stamina users : you will need a lot of resources to block, roll dodge, launch abilities and break free (much much more that your peers in the back lines) but you have the armor the least able to do it (weakest resource management system).

Still now with 1.6.X :

Active mitigation (resources and abilities) >> Passive mitigation (armor)

Heavy armor PVP design is a fail to me and need to be adressed by a TRUE non casual PVP designer.
Anything you could achieve in heavy PVP could be done better in another armor type (apart from standing still and taking damage doing nothing but block, but that is not what I call "skill").

Right now, heavy armor is not even enjoyable since you can not do much without resource in this game.

Other games are cooldown based and/or increase the available resources the more damage the warrior take (wow "rage" system). Other games also include mechanics very useful for frontline fighters like (wow "second wind" were you gain health back when rooted... blackguard "hatred" mechanic in warhammer, etc.)

Frontline fighters (heavy armor users*) in TESO have none of these apart from the anecdotic "Break Free" reduction cost from Juggernaut.

--
*Well I assume that if you choose Heavy, it's that you want to fight in the frontline.

EnOeZ

... and in Heavy armor, because you are in the front lines, you will not be able to do heavy attacks to get resources back.

(You need to release block for that => dead)

When I say we starve in Heavy.... it is that we really STARVE in Heavy (competitive PVP) and it is not enjoyable.

I would still recommend Heavy Armor to my worst enemies though...

bosmern_ESO

EnOeZ wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure. I went through Ruins of Kardala 4 different times solo and never went OOM on my Sorc, hell didn't even come close.

All depends on how the character is built. Heavy Armor will have its uses and is not as bad as people say. IMO Heavy Armor is better for PvE non end game then it is for Trials/PvP but even then it can be made to work.

Once resource management is no longer needed due to champion points then heavy armor gets even better. The passives need some work to make them better IMO though.

If you're talking PVE, heavy is ok and obviously now good for it's supposed use : tanking.

If you're talking competitive PVP, well it depends on how "competitive" you are...

For competitive players (the very good ones) it is just the worst of all three armor types, because resource in TESO is THE limitating factor to skill.

CS can help but not at the point where you could be more competitive in another armor + armor/spell resistance buff.

You cannot mathematically consistently outbrain and outplay others when you run dry on resources in just a few moves, however good your skill is. That's why 1vX videos will continue to be seen in light and now medium armor only.

The only "tricks" possible : avoid melee and stamina (you will be even more starved and frustrated), go magicka and ranged and somehow use low cost abilities and/or MANY resource-regen mechanics, abuse potions...), do not go full heavy...

Once again PVE is another matter since it is scripted (and therefore easier than PVP as soon as you/raid leader get it).

The ones who say "it is viable" in PVP simply do not know what competitive gaming is.

ZOS PVP design for heavy armor is just -sadly- inexistant and ignorant of PVP realities in front lines, especially for stamina users : you will need a lot of resources to block, roll dodge, launch abilities and break free (much much more that your peers in the back lines) but you have the armor the least able to do it (weakest resource management system).

Still now with 1.6.X :

Active mitigation (resources and abilities) >> Passive mitigation (armor)

Heavy armor PVP design is a fail to me and need to be adressed by a TRUE non casual PVP designer.
Anything you could achieve in heavy PVP could be done better in another armor type (apart from standing still and taking damage doing nothing but block, but that is not what I call "skill").

Right now, heavy armor is not even enjoyable since you can not do much without resource in this game.

Other games are cooldown based and/or increase the available resources the more damage the warrior take (wow "rage" system). Other games also include mechanics very useful for frontline fighters like (wow "second wind" were you gain health back when rooted... blackguard "hatred" mechanic in warhammer, etc.)

Frontline fighters (heavy armor users*) in TESO have none of these apart from the anecdotic "Break Free" reduction cost from Juggernaut.

--
*Well I assume that if you choose Heavy, it's that you want to fight in the frontline.

I really couldn't agree with you more. Someone in heavy armor should be a power house, not something that allows you to use 4 abilities then can't do anything. except sit there and watch yourself die.

I came to ESO from WoW (I played a Warrior) and it sucks that heavy armor is just terrible for pvp in almost every way.

madangrypally

I do consider myself a competitive PvP player and spend 95% of my game time doing PvP. Heavy armor needs to be improved I agree but there are unique builds out there that is possible for Heavy Armor even in competitive PvP. I may be different than most though because I tend to experiment and test unique builds and try them out in PvP.

I would likely make a heavy armor build for Update 6, but with the spell penetration bug its sorta pointless.

I also agree that heavy needs to be buffed. It does not offer enough benefit as the other two armor types passives and the increased mitigation does not make up for what it lacks. Even then it can be viable with certain sets and builds if done right even in competitive pvp.

I also feel Heavy needs to be buffed to make it more compatible with more builds.

My suggestions:
Resolve: Can stay the same or be removed and replaced.

Constitution: Adds 4% Health Recovery, 1% Max Health, and 1% Improved Healing per piece of heavy armor. (lol)

Juggernaut: 2% of incoming damage gained as Magicka and Stamina per piece of heavy armor. No cooldown. (BTW this is from an existing set bonus). (current bonus removed).

Bracing: Make this 20% reduction to all defensive abilities including cc break, dodge roll, and block.

Rapid Mending: Remove and replace with a whole new passive.

New Passive: Offers critical resistance and increased charge damage.


As you can see my suggestions are pretty major as I feel heavy armor passives in general majorly suck. That being said I still think heavy can be viable for certain builds.

sabresandiego_ESO

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

Domander

Active defense should always be better than passive defense, if not then everyone would wear heavy armor.

Emma_Overload

Heavy armor would be a lot easier to work with if there was a stamina version of the "Seducer" crafted set.

LtCrunch

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

The more posts of yours I see the more I like you!

Xsorus

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

This, you need the Drinks over food, Stamina Regen helps as well but it is hard to get with Heavy sets vs Medium.

If you really wanna be a pain in the ass you can stack Health Regen with Heavy.

Vanzen

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

This, you need the Drinks over food, Stamina Regen helps as well but it is hard to get with Heavy sets vs Medium.

If you really wanna be a pain in the ass you can stack Health Regen with Heavy.

Oh yes ! And in 1.6 with sofcap removal and with a certain armor sets mix, you can have offensive (like 1800 spell power with degeneration) as well as huge defensive capacity. Think "sofcap removal" ..
Heavy is just great now for pvp.

Bashev

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

This, you need the Drinks over food, Stamina Regen helps as well but it is hard to get with Heavy sets vs Medium.

If you really wanna be a pain in the ass you can stack Health Regen with Heavy.

I agree with this, If you want to be viable with heavy you need drinks not food and you should use cheap stamina skills. No immovable (which is nerfed to 5sec CC imunity), no circle of protection, not even charge attacks cause they cost a lot, etc. You need all your stamina for block add cc break. DPS will be low based on magicka skills. All this is viable for large scale battles between pugs, not for duels or bomb groups.

Vanzen

Bashev wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Heavy armor is one of the strongest armors for PVP if you build correctly for it. Basically you need to use drink instead of food, and max out regen and cost reductions through other methods. Once you do this, heavy is actually even with, if not stronger than medium or light armor overall for pvp. Thats all I have to say about that.

This, you need the Drinks over food, Stamina Regen helps as well but it is hard to get with Heavy sets vs Medium.

If you really wanna be a pain in the ass you can stack Health Regen with Heavy.

I agree with this, If you want to be viable with heavy you need drinks not food and you should use cheap stamina skills. No immovable (which is nerfed to 5sec CC imunity), no circle of protection, not even charge attacks cause they cost a lot, etc. You need all your stamina for block add cc break. DPS will be low based on magicka skills. All this is viable for large scale battles between pugs, not for duels or bomb groups.

Thats the beauty of 1.6 ... For A dunmer fire DK, your DPS can be just great along huge defensive capacities.. You can perform quite well even in duel.

JLB

Vanzen wrote: »

Thats the beauty of 1.6 ... For A dunmer fire DK, your DPS can be just great along huge defensive capacities.. You can perform quite well even in duel.

Wasn't that the beauty of 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, Beta, Alpha?

Vanzen

JLB wrote: »

Vanzen wrote: »

Thats the beauty of 1.6 ... For A dunmer fire DK, your DPS can be just great along huge defensive capacities.. You can perform quite well even in duel.

Wasn't that the beauty of 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, Beta, Alpha?

But this time with Heavy armor... Cherry on top

Turelus

Some really interesting points made in this thread. I have been going crazy trying to figure out what I wanted to do in 1.6 and if to move out of heavy armour and try something else to be worthwhile in PVP.

I think after reading this I might actually keep in heavy and try to see if I can make anything viable from it, I think with drinks and siphoning strikes as a Nightblade I should be okay with resources, however I am worried about the wet fish DPS I will be doing.

I understand the trade off for tanking should be DPS, but I'd like to be able to at least do something other than stand there as a meatsheild.

technohic

I actually kind of want to try some heavy armor. Just would need someone to craft me 4 pieces of heavy infused seducers. and I could take it from there. I probably have the mats and could improve it myself, just don't have the trait research for heavy yet.

Pirhana7_ESO

If you want to be effective at blocking and being able to keep blocking you are going to need heavy Armor now.

Bashev

I really love 1.6 heavy armor combined with drinks. Btw ZoS did great job with the drinks. I prefer them more than the food right now.

Vanzen

Bashev wrote: »

I really love 1.6 heavy armor combined with drinks. Btw ZoS did great job with the drinks. I prefer them more than the food tight now.

This will be widely known real fast, how op this is. Fortunately, there is still something to discover. For how long ?