Magica vs Stamina

ItsMeToo

ZOS should give every class the option with every skill, to pick where the skill uses power from. Be it magica or stamina. Let the player choose. Let the skill be the same either way, but the cost of using that skill uses the same amount of magica or stamina.

Panda244

Yeah, I don't like this new morph system as it essentially took away from magicka builds. No matter the morph, you should be able to pick what it scales off of.

TheBucket

I will most likely being going to Stamina NB 1h/Board after 1.6. I feel like magic Melee is going to be gimped.

Cody

now stamina builds will be OP.

there will be people talking about stamina builds being OP, then ZOS will switch it to magicka builds being OP, then back again, then again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....

Dracane

Stamina builds would become extremly strong I think. And they already are superior in my opinion, at least on PTS.

But we also must stay realistic. It's not realistic, to use stamina to shot lightning or fire. I think, it should stay a bit realistic at least.

danno8

Cody wrote: »

now stamina builds will be OP.

there will be people talking about stamina builds being OP, then ZOS will switch it to magicka builds being OP, then back again, then again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....

Sounds about perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Zershar_Vemod

Got to agree with this, had to abandon Ambush and Killer's blade and my new build will use Lotus fan...which I really don't like honestly lol.

Kalman

Should be Mag + Sta * 0.66 = Skill Power

c0rp

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

Robbmrp

ZOS should add in an Attribute field that determines what's used Magicka or Stamina. They could build morphs around both aspects so people would have morphs available for the way they want to play. If you want to go Stamina, then all morphs you choose are based off Stamina with rewards/gains in that area. The default would be Magicka if the Flag wasn't marked. It would take a little bit of programming but would offer more morphs and play ability.

Samadhi

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

now stamina builds will be OP.

there will be people talking about stamina builds being OP, then ZOS will switch it to magicka builds being OP, then back again, then again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....

Sounds about perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Is my comprehension on cyclical balance clear?

Heavy Armour should provide significantly more defense/sustain against physical attacks (Medium Armour) than it does against Spells (Light Armour) so that Heavy builds are countered by Light builds which are countered by Medium builds which are countered by Heavy builds?

and if that comprehension is correct, questions:
How to go about ensuring that Medium hits hard against Light while Heavy does not hit hard against Light in a system where each category inherently has access to either source of damage output?

Should ZOS also be making spells less dramatically reduced by Block than physical attacks are?

Father

Magicka wasn't nerfed, its just stamina got buffed, deal with it.
Play the way you want or play to win. update 6 brings a new game and being on PTS doesn't let you experiment it fully.
There are many set combinations out there yet to be used and tested and new ways to create builds.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

The simplest fix is to give each class it's own weapon powers.
Ie if you are a sorc.... no more Stam based weapon skills.

Instead hack the sorc toggle a 2h lightning blade as an example since zos loves toggles.
When toggled on the sorc Imbues his weapon with lighting that does whatever the surge line does,
As example.

Then u have weapon based skills different for every class that either use Stam or mag. In this way you don't have every single class running around with the exact same skills.

Thy way it is now. Most people use 6 to 8 skills NOT EVEN IN THEIR CLASS LINE, AS EITHER WEAPON SKILLS OR GUILD SKILLS ARE SUPERIOR.

jelliedsoup

If you block,sprint dodge you may notice your stamina going down.

TheBull

ItsMeToo wrote: »

ZOS should give every class the option with every skill, to pick where the skill uses power from. Be it magica or stamina. Let the player choose. Let the skill be the same either way, but the cost of using that skill uses the same amount of magica or stamina.

Better yet combine magicka and stamina into one resource stat. We could call it Booooriiing!

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

if they did that then there is no difference between magica and stamina, your just picking if your prefered pool is green or blue

Raxxial

c0rp wrote: »

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

That is just ridiculous if they let you cast what is obviously a magical ability for stamina what is the point of having magicka, why not just get rid of the blue mana and just make everything use green mana? This game is different in that physical and magical DPS abilities draw on different resource bars, that all classes have access to both resource bars, and that defensive abilities such as block, dodge and sprint use the same physical DPS mana bar.

Sorry but physical abilities should continue to cost stamina and ANYTHING that is magical should cost magicka. If this dynamic changes they should just merge them and be done with it.

Kingdinguhling

Yea they really cant do this. there is separate pools for a reason and this would cause serious problems. Obviously if everything could cost either and scale off either there would be no need for both.

Everyone would choose green mana and then they would have extra regen stacked on it for block and dodge too basically only using one resource pool would cause serious issues in this game.

they would then have to separate the block and roll dodge resources to be its own entity.
this would cause us to have to redo gear,stat allocation, and everything.

On top of that it would cause serious issues with weapons.

I think the biggest problem now is they don't have enough stamina magicka morphs and in the right spots.

They needs to start planning builds around specific abilities and create builds that they want us to use and then update morphs accordingly. then they need to fix weapon scaling to work off either resources somehow because atm a magicka user will only use a staff for resource management. you don't gain magicka off Light and heavy attacks from a sword and board. and I don't know if they can do this without breaking the game somehow.

they have stepped in it now they have it on there shoes. I am not sure how they are gonna fix it.

Kingdinguhling

But I can tell you this much everyone is gonna roll stamina 2 hander pretty much and magicka is only gonna be for casting damage shields.

byrom101b16_ESO

Father wrote: »

Magicka wasn't nerfed, its just stamina got buffed, deal with it.
Play the way you want or play to win. update 6 brings a new game and being on PTS doesn't let you experiment it fully.
There are many set combinations out there yet to be used and tested and new ways to create builds.

You are wrong, and stating these facts like you know the truth of them doesn't make you right.

The nerf to magicka wasn't just comparative to stamina, it is a nerf represented by the hard numbers.

Spell resistances are higher and magicka costs are commonly now greater - so you need to use magicka for longer to kill opponents but you have less sustain.

Telling people to 'deal with it'...please...

Raxxial

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

But I can tell you this much everyone is gonna roll stamina 2 hander pretty much and magicka is only gonna be for casting damage shields.

It does look like they are buffing stamina too much but we will see how it all washes out after a few weeks of update 6 going live, lets just say my new magicka DPS Templar is a little concerned that his 2H spells hield using brethren are going to make his damage output look like dust on the wind.

byrom101b16_ESO

Raxxial wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

That is just ridiculous if they let you cast what is obviously a magical ability for stamina what is the point of having magicka, why not just get rid of the blue mana and just make everything use green mana? This game is different in that physical and magical DPS abilities draw on different resource bars, that all classes have access to both resource bars, and that defensive abilities such as block, dodge and sprint use the same physical DPS mana bar.

Sorry but physical abilities should continue to cost stamina and ANYTHING that is magical should cost magicka. If this dynamic changes they should just merge them and be done with it.

Agreed!

Otherwise you just have an 'Energy Bar', and all pretence of this being an TES game is entirely lost.

Nihil

Samadhi wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

now stamina builds will be OP.

there will be people talking about stamina builds being OP, then ZOS will switch it to magicka builds being OP, then back again, then again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....

Sounds about perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Is my comprehension on cyclical balance clear?

Heavy Armour should provide significantly more defense/sustain against physical attacks (Medium Armour) than it does against Spells (Light Armour) so that Heavy builds are countered by Light builds which are countered by Medium builds which are countered by Heavy builds?

and if that comprehension is correct, questions:
How to go about ensuring that Medium hits hard against Light while Heavy does not hit hard against Light in a system where each category inherently has access to either source of damage output?

Should ZOS also be making spells less dramatically reduced by Block than physical attacks are?

I have actually been thinking about this recently in trying to come up with builds. First off, no game is going to be balanced around 1v1 and we haven't been able to play enough to really tell where the balance is in major group content.

When comparing light/medium against heavy a couple things popped out, Heavies main advantage, damage mitigation, is a lot easier to by pass with light armor. Mana users (light armor +destruction staff) have an innate higher magicka penetration then MA has for physical penetration. Outside of NB/DK Medium armor has no ability to apply the major fracture debuff other then through sword and shield (which is obviously not high damaging), while LA has their base penetration, and have energy susceptibility which if not purged / cleansed (don't know if it actually can be but guessing it can) will reduce the players Spell resistence by ~10k total, also they have Nirnhoined for countering armor. Add in that LA also want to keep players at range and HA low sustain, with also Mana users having more skill trees to pull from their skill trees would make them maybe more adapt on taking care of HA players (at least in group settings) then MA. MA (melee range) fighters can deal more damage, but due to lack of good sources of major fracture debuff and other sources of penetration in theory would be dealing less damage to a tankish character then LA, add in that HA can heal up better and melee fighters tend to not forcing HA to use gap closers as much could lead to HA sustain issues not being as apparent.

Against light armor, medium armor has higher damage (melee range) and sustain then Heavy armor, thus are able to break down the damage shields faster and keep up (gap closers) with the Light armor user more so then LA can do against them selves, and HA can also.

Against medium armor HA users might be able to sustain less damage and (in theory) spend less resources on healing up and recovering then MA would. The question I have here as this one I have less time thinking about is, can HA create enough burst / pressure to take down a MA player? This one not sure enough as I wasn't going to test pvp with 3600 cp (with current VR ranks, they have said they are going to remove these, and if the stat increases go with them for leveling up players are going to find they will lose some sustain and base attributes), and just based on duels.

In general... to early to tell if my theory and view has any validity, as we are going to be in the making new builds phase for a while after it launches.

Exstazik

1) magicka was op
2) ZOS up stamina-people rr to stamina
3)ZOS add spellcrafting-people rr to magicka
4)*ZOS add something (aka maybe daedra prince bonus for stamina)-people rr to stamina
5) repeat 2-4 as much as you want and made it DLC for big profit*

koetty

Raxxial wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

That is just ridiculous if they let you cast what is obviously a magical ability for stamina what is the point of having magicka, why not just get rid of the blue mana and just make everything use green mana? This game is different in that physical and magical DPS abilities draw on different resource bars, that all classes have access to both resource bars, and that defensive abilities such as block, dodge and sprint use the same physical DPS mana bar.

Sorry but physical abilities should continue to cost stamina and ANYTHING that is magical should cost magicka. If this dynamic changes they should just merge them and be done with it.

Exactly what I was thinking of.

c0rp

Raxxial wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

That is just ridiculous if they let you cast what is obviously a magical ability for stamina what is the point of having magicka, why not just get rid of the blue mana and just make everything use green mana? This game is different in that physical and magical DPS abilities draw on different resource bars, that all classes have access to both resource bars, and that defensive abilities such as block, dodge and sprint use the same physical DPS mana bar.

Sorry but physical abilities should continue to cost stamina and ANYTHING that is magical should cost magicka. If this dynamic changes they should just merge them and be done with it.

Raxxial wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

There are just certain skills that NEED to have a stam option. For example...sorc pets. It does not make sense that they only scale w magicka. Should go both ways. There are other skills too, but I am just too tired to put much effort into it at this time.

That is just ridiculous if they let you cast what is obviously a magical ability for stamina what is the point of having magicka, why not just get rid of the blue mana and just make everything use green mana? This game is different in that physical and magical DPS abilities draw on different resource bars, that all classes have access to both resource bars, and that defensive abilities such as block, dodge and sprint use the same physical DPS mana bar.

Sorry but physical abilities should continue to cost stamina and ANYTHING that is magical should cost magicka. If this dynamic changes they should just merge them and be done with it.

This isnt D&D. Its an elder scrolls mmo with its biggest draw being "play how you want". By introducing a stam and magicka system, then dictating "you can only use this skill effectively if you put all your points into magicka (because that is how the ability scales)" goes against what they are trying to promote. There is no reason why a stam based sorc who focuses on physical damage shouldnt be able to use pets effectively. I would agree with what you are saying if this was D&D Online...but it isn't. And ZoS has already set this precedent with other skills. Now ZoS just needs to expand it more.

Samadhi

Nihil wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

now stamina builds will be OP.

there will be people talking about stamina builds being OP, then ZOS will switch it to magicka builds being OP, then back again, then again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....

Sounds about perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Is my comprehension on cyclical balance clear?

Heavy Armour should provide significantly more defense/sustain against physical attacks (Medium Armour) than it does against Spells (Light Armour) so that Heavy builds are countered by Light builds which are countered by Medium builds which are countered by Heavy builds?

and if that comprehension is correct, questions:
How to go about ensuring that Medium hits hard against Light while Heavy does not hit hard against Light in a system where each category inherently has access to either source of damage output?

Should ZOS also be making spells less dramatically reduced by Block than physical attacks are?

I have actually been thinking about this recently in trying to come up with builds. First off, no game is going to be balanced around 1v1 and we haven't been able to play enough to really tell where the balance is in major group content.

When comparing light/medium against heavy a couple things popped out, Heavies main advantage, damage mitigation, is a lot easier to by pass with light armor. Mana users (light armor +destruction staff) have an innate higher magicka penetration then MA has for physical penetration. Outside of NB/DK Medium armor has no ability to apply the major fracture debuff other then through sword and shield (which is obviously not high damaging), while LA has their base penetration, and have energy susceptibility which if not purged / cleansed (don't know if it actually can be but guessing it can) will reduce the players Spell resistence by ~10k total, also they have Nirnhoined for countering armor. Add in that LA also want to keep players at range and HA low sustain, with also Mana users having more skill trees to pull from their skill trees would make them maybe more adapt on taking care of HA players (at least in group settings) then MA. MA (melee range) fighters can deal more damage, but due to lack of good sources of major fracture debuff and other sources of penetration in theory would be dealing less damage to a tankish character then LA, add in that HA can heal up better and melee fighters tend to not forcing HA to use gap closers as much could lead to HA sustain issues not being as apparent.

Against light armor, medium armor has higher damage (melee range) and sustain then Heavy armor, thus are able to break down the damage shields faster and keep up (gap closers) with the Light armor user more so then LA can do against them selves, and HA can also.

Against medium armor HA users might be able to sustain less damage and (in theory) spend less resources on healing up and recovering then MA would. The question I have here as this one I have less time thinking about is, can HA create enough burst / pressure to take down a MA player? This one not sure enough as I wasn't going to test pvp with 3600 cp (with current VR ranks, they have said they are going to remove these, and if the stat increases go with them for leveling up players are going to find they will lose some sustain and base attributes), and just based on duels.

In general... to early to tell if my theory and view has any validity, as we are going to be in the making new builds phase for a while after it launches.

This is some interesting insights, thank you for posting it.

Can agree your final sentiment regarding Heavy burst against Medium is something to examine.