What roles should be viable for a Sorcerer?

GreyRanger

I have been following the discussion about sorcerer magicka based DPS with interest and some dismay. It is discouraging that up to 1.6.3 ZOS hasn't gotten the most basic role for sorcerers worked out, but I will hope they will.

I wanted to raise a different question. It seems clear that the sorcerer class is unique in that it doesn't have anything substantive to add to the ability to tank or heal (key team roles).

Is it or should it be a design goal that all classes are viable have something to offer for all three primary team roles?

I had hoped ESO was trying to make all classes viable in all roles, with different styles for achieving the key roles.

cozmon3c_ESO

Isn't it obvious, they want us to just troll people with bolt escape and not actually kill anything.

A1exeR

GreyRanger wrote: »

I have been following the discussion about sorcerer magicka based DPS with interest and some dismay. It is discouraging that up to 1.6.3 ZOS hasn't gotten the most basic role for sorcerers worked out, but I will hope they will.

I wanted to raise a different question. It seems clear that the sorcerer class is unique in that it doesn't have anything substantive to add to the ability to tank or heal (key team roles).

Is it or should it be a design goal that all classes are viable have something to offer for all three primary team roles?

I had hoped ESO was trying to make all classes viable in all roles, with different styles for achieving the key roles.

Forget It. I too had hoped, but ZOS only cares about making money.

Teargrants

Sorc = Zerg Troller

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it obvious, they want us to just troll people with bolt escape and not actually kill anything.

Leper gets it. Have a free "insightful".

Liea

I, too, had hoped that ESO would let every class fill every role equally well yet through different play styles. Rift had achieved this perfect game balance and thereby proven it can be done. I do not know the state of Rift at this time because I left shortly after it went F2P. The game designers for Rift really had managed to balance 4 classes and hundreds of abilities just perfectly (4 classes x 9 soul trees x (20 active + 20 passive abilities)) so that each of the four classes could fill three out of the four roles (Tank, Healer, DPS, Support) equally well - yet the play styles were very different. But I must admit: It took the Rift game designers ?7? months until they understood that class balance cannot be achieved by tweaking abilities here and there a bit. Instead they did a complete revamp of all classes and all abilities, looking at what worked and what not, what players enjoyed and what not and how each ability compared to every other ability in game across classes and how it might synergize with other abilities (wanted or unwanted). And when they found an ability that was too strong but could not be made weaker without making it underwhelming compared to other abilities (of other classes) they would remove that ability and replace it with something useful or fun instead of leaving a broken ability in game.

So, yes, I wish every class in ESO had 3 class skill lines, one each dedicated to

• damage mitigation and self heals (tanking)
• heals and damage mitigation to others (healing)
• melee and ranged damage - single target and aoe

And these skill lines should offer very divers play styles, so that we all look upon other classes as "wow, that looks interesting even though not better or worse". Rift did it - so, it can be done!

Derra

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it obvious, they want us to just troll people with bolt escape and not actually kill anything.

They would not have nerfed bolt escape cost if that was the case

Seraphyel

Liea wrote: »

I, too, had hoped that ESO would let every class fill every role equally well yet through different play styles. Rift had achieved this perfect game balance and thereby proven it can be done. I do not know the state of Rift at this time because I left shortly after it went F2P. The game designers for Rift really had managed to balance 4 classes and hundreds of abilities just perfectly (4 classes x 9 soul trees x (20 active + 20 passive abilities)) so that each of the four classes could fill three out of the four roles (Tank, Healer, DPS, Support) equally well - yet the play styles were very different. But I must admit: It took the Rift game designers ?7? months until they understood that class balance cannot be achieved by tweaking abilities here and there a bit. Instead they did a complete revamp of all classes and all abilities, looking at what worked and what not, what players enjoyed and what not and how each ability compared to every other ability in game across classes and how it might synergize with other abilities (wanted or unwanted). And when they found an ability that was too strong but could not be made weaker without making it underwhelming compared to other abilities (of other classes) they would remove that ability and replace it with something useful or fun instead of leaving a broken ability in game.

So, yes, I wish every class in ESO had 3 class skill lines, one each dedicated to

• damage mitigation and self heals (tanking)
• heals and damage mitigation to others (healing)
• melee and ranged damage - single target and aoe

And these skill lines should offer very divers play styles, so that we all look upon other classes as "wow, that looks interesting even though not better or worse". Rift did it - so, it can be done!

Your idea is great and it would be really the best and only way ESO should have been done, because that's what Zenimax wanted to achieve but didn't, because they went the other way...

Rosveen

All roles should be viable for every class. Yes, it should be the primary goal. Otherwise remove "The Elder Scrolls" from the title.

DezIsDead

IMO I think when they originally created the class skills they foresaw sorc as some kind of CC fight controller/support role. Encase, rune prison, pets to hamper any aggro pulled on you. Streak causing a disorient, balls absorbing projectiles. But every dung and instance they've made is all about A DPS race. So basically, now you have a class where half the skills are pointless, and their attempts to fix it are flipping useless. All good tho, that's why I leveled up a NB and a Templar. Sorc will only be my PvP guy now.

GreyRanger

Liea wrote: »

I, too, had hoped that ESO would let every class fill every role equally well yet through different play styles. Rift had achieved this perfect game balance and thereby proven it can be done. I do not know the state of Rift at this time because I left shortly after it went F2P. The game designers for Rift really had managed to balance 4 classes and hundreds of abilities just perfectly (4 classes x 9 soul trees x (20 active + 20 passive abilities)) so that each of the four classes could fill three out of the four roles (Tank, Healer, DPS, Support) equally well - yet the play styles were very different. But I must admit: It took the Rift game designers ?7? months until they understood that class balance cannot be achieved by tweaking abilities here and there a bit. Instead they did a complete revamp of all classes and all abilities, looking at what worked and what not, what players enjoyed and what not and how each ability compared to every other ability in game across classes and how it might synergize with other abilities (wanted or unwanted). And when they found an ability that was too strong but could not be made weaker without making it underwhelming compared to other abilities (of other classes) they would remove that ability and replace it with something useful or fun instead of leaving a broken ability in game.

So, yes, I wish every class in ESO had 3 class skill lines, one each dedicated to

• damage mitigation and self heals (tanking)
• heals and damage mitigation to others (healing)
• melee and ranged damage - single target and aoe

And these skill lines should offer very divers play styles, so that we all look upon other classes as "wow, that looks interesting even though not better or worse". Rift did it - so, it can be done!

I really like the 3 parallel lines idea. It gives an elegant structure around which to play balance.

Unfortunately my guess is that ZOS will see themselves as too far down the current path to make such a change, doubly so with the console launch approaching.

TheLaw

Zos wants us to play toggle builds.

Here's a guide:

1) Waste two ability slots, on each bar, for your pets
2) Equip Lightning Flood
3) Bang head on keyboard
4) Reroll

GreyRanger

TheLaw wrote: »

Zos wants us to play toggle builds.

Here's a guide:

1) Waste two ability slots, on each bar, for your pets
2) Equip Lightning Flood
3) Bang head on keyboard
4) Reroll

I just don't know that I have the patience to reroll and level it all again. I keep hoping they make the Sorcerer viable in multiple team roles.

Jahosefat

Teargrants wrote: »

Sorc = Zerg Troller

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Isn't it obvious, they want us to just troll people with bolt escape and not actually kill anything.

Leper gets it. Have a free "insightful".

Combat journalist We also work well as bait *bunny hop*

Vyle_Byte

Rosveen wrote: »

All roles should be viable for every class. Yes, it should be the primary goal. Otherwise remove "The Elder Scrolls" from the title.

^^ This. I concur 100%

NukeAllTheThings

My Sorc makes a great flower picker and mat farmer

Snit

GreyRanger wrote: »

I just don't know that I have the patience to reroll and level it all again. I keep hoping they make the Sorcerer viable in multiple team roles.

'Viable' is a lower standard, and it's one we meet for healing. There's not much in the sorc toolbox that helps with healing, other than generally good resource management, but I've healed through about half the veteran dungeons.

We may not be suited for heals as a primary role, but we can fill in if you can't find a Templar.

Recremen

I 100% think Sorcerers should have the ability to do all roles. Same for every class. I don't know if every class should necessarily have a boatload of skills to supplement their intended role, but it should at least be viable.

ToRelax

I would like if we had something to increase our healing again, like Surge in 1.5.

Priority is that a ranged Magicka DPS works though.

In the end all classes should be ablte to fill every role, but that is already the case I think, you can not perfectly balance all classes anyway. However, trying to do so should still help the balance.

Erock25

ToRelax wrote: »

I would like if we had something to increase our healing again, like Surge in 1.5.

Priority is that a ranged Magicka DPS works though.

In the end all classes should be ablte to fill every role, but that is already the case I think, you can not perfectly balance all classes anyway. However, trying to do so should still help the balance.

A Sorc in a stamina spec receives BY FAR the smallest amount of synergy with their class skills. It isn't even close.

ToRelax

Erock25 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I would like if we had something to increase our healing again, like Surge in 1.5.

Priority is that a ranged Magicka DPS works though.

In the end all classes should be ablte to fill every role, but that is already the case I think, you can not perfectly balance all classes anyway. However, trying to do so should still help the balance.

A Sorc in a stamina spec receives BY FAR the smallest amount of synergy with their class skills. It isn't even close.

Uhm, yes, since Critical Surge was nerfed that is very true. Why did you quote me though ^^ ? Stamina Sorc is playable, it's just not very good, matching my previous post.

Erock25

ToRelax wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I would like if we had something to increase our healing again, like Surge in 1.5.

Priority is that a ranged Magicka DPS works though.

In the end all classes should be ablte to fill every role, but that is already the case I think, you can not perfectly balance all classes anyway. However, trying to do so should still help the balance.

A Sorc in a stamina spec receives BY FAR the smallest amount of synergy with their class skills. It isn't even close.

Uhm, yes, since Critical Surge was nerfed that is very true. Why did you quote me though ^^ ? Stamina Sorc is playable, it's just not very good, matching my previous post.

Because you said all classes should be able to fill every role and that you believe that is already the case. There is close to zero reason for a stamina user to be a Sorc anymore and therefore I don't think they fill the stamina dps role.

ToRelax

Erock25 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I would like if we had something to increase our healing again, like Surge in 1.5.

Priority is that a ranged Magicka DPS works though.

In the end all classes should be ablte to fill every role, but that is already the case I think, you can not perfectly balance all classes anyway. However, trying to do so should still help the balance.

A Sorc in a stamina spec receives BY FAR the smallest amount of synergy with their class skills. It isn't even close.

Uhm, yes, since Critical Surge was nerfed that is very true. Why did you quote me though ^^ ? Stamina Sorc is playable, it's just not very good, matching my previous post.

Because you said all classes should be able to fill every role and that you believe that is already the case. There is close to zero reason for a stamina user to be a Sorc anymore and therefore I don't think they fill the stamina dps role.

Then you misunderstood me, I didn't say all classes were able to fill all roles equally good, in fact I stated balacning it perfectly would be impossible yet should be aimed for .

Zabernat

A1exeR wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I have been following the discussion about sorcerer magicka based DPS with interest and some dismay. It is discouraging that up to 1.6.3 ZOS hasn't gotten the most basic role for sorcerers worked out, but I will hope they will.

I wanted to raise a different question. It seems clear that the sorcerer class is unique in that it doesn't have anything substantive to add to the ability to tank or heal (key team roles).

Is it or should it be a design goal that all classes are viable have something to offer for all three primary team roles?

I had hoped ESO was trying to make all classes viable in all roles, with different styles for achieving the key roles.

Forget It. I too had hoped, but ZOS only cares about making money.

Okay can we PLEASE stop just flaming ZOS at every turn? I happen to enjoy the game and I'm enjoying the changes they've made too. Not everybody is try-harding their way through life and not every game dev just wants your money.

cozmon3c_ESO

Zabernat wrote: »

A1exeR wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I have been following the discussion about sorcerer magicka based DPS with interest and some dismay. It is discouraging that up to 1.6.3 ZOS hasn't gotten the most basic role for sorcerers worked out, but I will hope they will.

I wanted to raise a different question. It seems clear that the sorcerer class is unique in that it doesn't have anything substantive to add to the ability to tank or heal (key team roles).

Is it or should it be a design goal that all classes are viable have something to offer for all three primary team roles?

I had hoped ESO was trying to make all classes viable in all roles, with different styles for achieving the key roles.

Forget It. I too had hoped, but ZOS only cares about making money.

Okay can we PLEASE stop just flaming ZOS at every turn? I happen to enjoy the game and I'm enjoying the changes they've made too. Not everybody is try-harding their way through life and not every game dev just wants your money.

Well its pretty obvious they will be losing a lot of peoples money if they dont pay attention to what sorcerers need to be viable in tanking, stam, and/or magicka speced. right now the only real clear path is to stack maigicka, and even then we pale in comparison to damage by stam builds of all the other classes. you want me to sit here and let my time be wasted over these past 10 months and still be the weakest in every aspect of the game, i dont think so.

Things zos can do to make it more balanced
- make magicka builds damage more on par with stamina builds, or bring stam builds damage down to magicka build damage.
- tanks take little to no damage in the game, they need a weakness that players can use to fight them 1v1, no one likes never ending battles of boredom. doesnt take much skill to stack armor/spell resist and just hold block, boring gameplay.
- sheild stacking gameplay sucks, i dont want to have to make sure i stacked my shields every few seconds to play the game, boring. also people like to see they actually did some damage with there damage abilities zos, sheilds make this not happen.
- heavy armor should not also increase spell resistance equal to armor, this is already causing zero weakness to heavy armor wearers. heavy armor should have the least amount of spell resist so magicka dps builds will be there counter.
- block should never block for 0 damage, and heres why, if you build your block resistant up so high that you block for 0, you do not take a stamina hit for blocking that attack. so you have people who are virtually unkillable because of this. block should always block for 1 damage at the least so stamina will be drained.
- sorc is missing viability for tank and stam, this needs to be addressed asap zos. passives are the key to helping with this and allowing a stam based damage ability, its not that hard. magicka pve needs a reliable single target dot.
- sorc magicka build feels extremely weak, if we put all our points into magicka damage through spell power and magicka, we should feel like we hit like a truck (like 2 hander is right now), but we dont. last night testing i felt like i was tickling everyone lol, ive felt this way since probably 1.5.

all and all i feel bad for new sorcs coming up, the skill curve to play one well is astronomical compared to the other classes ive played. yes you get a few kick ass awesome players who play sorc, but that is not even close to the majority. i feel like sorc is getting balanced around those few and it is just hurting the rest of the average skilled sorcs to being to weak to even survive an encounter in pvp, especially in this patch.

Teargrants

NukeAllTheThings wrote: »

My Sorc makes a great flower picker and mat farmer

You don't know the half of it, I have a separate build for Coldharbor farming.

Danisheraser

I think all classes should be able to fulfill every roll equally. Though each with their own strengths. This is far from the case. At the moment, I think sorc is the class, which seems to struggle the most, to identify itself with any roll actually. Neither tanking, healing and dps, is a livelihood the sorc chooses. Someone else said it very good; Zenimax gave them a lot of CC/control, but in a endgame PvE environment, dps, healing and tanking is what counts. And Sorcers don't have enough abilities to chose from, to be able to fulfill any of those roles in a viable way.

To be honest, I think Zenimax have judged sorcerers mostly from their PvP capability than their viability in PvE. Sad , and now they are being punished for it.

GreyRanger

For what it is worth, if Sorcerers had powerful enough controls to effectively mitigate/prevent damage; that + some restro skills might make a great/fun/different form of healer. But the reality is that the controls Sorcerers have don't effect bosses at all and really make about no difference even with mass trash pulls. To bad, it had real potential.

I have he feeling that the ZOS design team doesn't care for disabling abilities, probably because of concerns about PVP balance.

Voltos

Sorcerer Healing, right here! Specifically, Spell Surge. Check it out.

Surge:
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Light and Heavy attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, dealing 7% of damage done over 10 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. All critical strikes heal you for 50% of damage done.

Arc damage is increased each level by 1%.

Power Surge(Morph) -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, dealing 10% of damage done over 10 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. All critical strikes heal for 50% of damage done.

You now receive the Major Brutality, Major Sorcery and Major Endurance buffs.

Spell Surge(Morph) -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, arching to the nearest three allies within 10 meters, healing them for for 10% of the damage done over 10 seconds. All critical strikes heal for you for 40% and your allies for 20% of the damage done.

You now receive the Major Sorcery and Major Intellect buffs.[/b]

f047ys3v3n

What roll should be viable for Sorc you ask?

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Crafter troll-la-la-la-la.