The whole nerf to spell cost reduction is annoying and Expert Mage is a cherry on top.

jarydf

So ZOS nerfing spell cost reduction in general to "make room" for champion points pissed me off.

If you are trying to increase sustain and not burst as ZOS is saying is part of their strategy for changing Sorcs isnt spell cost reduction the kind of thing that should be encouraged?

ZOS seemed to be wanting us to be more interested in the Sorc standard spells and especially the Storm Calling tree with buff to Mages Fury, Lightning Splash and Overload to make the Sorc spells more usable and popular.

But then making them more expensive with another nerf to spell cost reduction? WTF?

I have not had a chance to get on the PTS today yet but is the 2% per slot the final bonus or is it 2% / 4%? Does the increase power out way the cost reduction nerf in most builds?

Overload in its new form was nice, useable and an interesting concept. The fact that you got back ultimate while doing it was great and appealed to the type of person (me) that is interested in the idea that it was an frugal ultimate that worked in a way that you could use your ultimate sparingly, ration it and not blow it and have it as another resource pool. I could turn it on and use it in small bursts and it would be useful throughout the whole play through rather than being a "flashy one shot trick" like a lot of the ultimates that you pull out when everything was going wrong and often using it at the wrong time saw it wasted.

Both changes to Expert Mate and Overload in 1.6.3 seems to work against the exact things I thought ZOS were doing to "fix the Sorc issues".

Playing on the PTS 1.6.2 I thought despite the Sorc whinging all around they were actually getting somewhere and was onboard.

But now with these changes in 1.6.3 I am again less sure ZOS gets what they are doing.

---

The seems to be a hell of a lot of time put into "balancing the classes" and doing things to try and make it actually "play the way you want". It is probably never going to happen but all of this makes me wish for the old Elder Scrolls setups where you can use any skills / setup you want and there is no class / race restrictions. That would really be play how you want.

The High End PVPers and PVEs could min / max their builds within an inch of their lives with no restrictions arguing about minute buffs that they all had access to. Others could make strange hybrid builds that although not fully optimised still be fun. The people who wanted pets could add one. I could just wander solo around the blank expanses of Cyridill trying not to get one shotted. Anyway...

jarydf

Ok after doing some testing after 1.6.3 - the conclusions I have come to are for me and my revised build are as follows...

Light Armor: The Concentration passive with the extra penetration has gone a long way to making Light armor more viable again. You are still squishy and very reliant on shield stacking but 5light / 2 heavy is "doable" in many situations. I think that I will be also carrying 3 bits of heavy so that if a situation calls for it I can go 5 heavy / 2 light.

Overload: I can cope with the power reduction but would still like ZOS to put back the ultimate being gained by using the overload light and heavy attacks. It is part of Overload being "different" to other ultimates and makes to more usable. The being able to store up to about 1800 ultimate now goes some way to helping but yeah.

Crystal Frags: CF today feels more responsive today. Today it just worked so that is a positive.

Expert Mage: Being a magicka mage I could not feel this change between the spell cost and the spell power so I will call that a draw.

Lightning Splash: This AOE is working ok for people who want an occasional AOE and do not want to use a destro staff. It isn't the same as the "staffs n' skirts" Impulse Block Spamming back in the day but I think that has more to do with the changes to blocking than this AOE.

Shield Stacking: The combo of Ward and Harness Magicka is the only thing that is saving my arse at the moment. Please don't nerf this further.

Pets: I like pets. I like the buff that pets got to make them useful.

Overall the 1.6 Sorc feels better to me than the 1.5 Sorc and I look forward to 1.6 going live. If you could put back the Overload attacks generating a bit of ultimate I would be a happy little Sorc camper with everything that has been thrown up in the air and where it landed. Do that and then leave it alone for a while to give some stability back.

Thanks.

GreyRanger

Just a quick note, the change to Expert Mage is pretty damaging to the few nuts (myself included) who had been playing a stam sorcerer.

Full disclosure: I have one sorcerer who is a magicka, was trying for DPS & heals and one who is stam, I wanted to go DPS/Tank, but that is not working out so well.

indigoblades

jarydf wrote: »

Ok after doing some testing after 1.6.3 - the conclusions I have come to are for me and my revised build are as follows...

Light Armor: The Concentration passive with the extra penetration has gone a long way to making Light armor more viable again. You are still squishy and very reliant on shield stacking but 5light / 2 heavy is "doable" in many situations. I think that I will be also carrying 3 bits of heavy so that if a situation calls for it I can go 5 heavy / 2 light.

Overload: I can cope with the power reduction but would still like ZOS to put back the ultimate being gained by using the overload light and heavy attacks. It is part of Overload being "different" to other ultimates and makes to more usable. The being able to store up to about 1800 ultimate now goes some way to helping but yeah.

Crystal Frags: CF today feels more responsive today. Today it just worked so that is a positive.

Expert Mage: Being a magicka mage I could not feel this change between the spell cost and the spell power so I will call that a draw.

Lightning Splash: This AOE is working ok for people who want an occasional AOE and do not want to use a destro staff. It isn't the same as the "staffs n' skirts" Impulse Block Spamming back in the day but I think that has more to do with the changes to blocking than this AOE.

Shield Stacking: The combo of Ward and Harness Magicka is the only thing that is saving my arse at the moment. Please don't nerf this further.

Pets: I like pets. I like the buff that pets got to make them useful.

Overall the 1.6 Sorc feels better to me than the 1.5 Sorc and I look forward to 1.6 going live. If you could put back the Overload attacks generating a bit of ultimate I would be a happy little Sorc camper with everything that has been thrown up in the air and where it landed. Do that and then leave it alone for a while to give some stability back.

Thanks.

indigoblades

jarydf wrote: »

Ok after doing some testing after 1.6.3 ....

Expert Mage: Being a magicka mage I could not feel this change between the spell cost and the spell power so I will call that a draw.

For me it was giant nerf. I rolled High Magicka sorc and i got 0.5% tool damage increase for a 11% increase in cost for Lightning Splash. Here are my test results:

3 sorc & 2 mage abilties .. Lightning Spash damage = 685
2 sorc & 2 mage abilities... Lightning Spash damage = 681

Again at least the half the spells i cast are in storm calling tree with bolt escape being pretty expensive. I ran out of magika over and over for the first time in months during my 1.6.3 test session.

Ace_SiN

The expert mage change did a lot more harm than good overall.. At best the change is not noticeable. At worst it screwed over anyone not using a pure magicka build.

Who is making these calls? I've played a lot of MMOs and ZOS has to be one of the most out of touch devs with their own game.

Derra

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Derra

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

Because the cost of Bolt Escape more than 4 seconds after the last one is next to nothing if you have some reduction already and the reduction doesn't count for the increase when casting in quick succession. That is what makes Bolt Escape Expensive and of that cost, 10% from Expert Mage is not really 10% less magicka cost.

(not counting that cost reduction is nerfed in general as we all know)

Derra

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

Because the cost of Bolt Escape more than 4 seconds after the last one is next to nothing if you have some reduction already and the reduction doesn't count for the increase when casting in quick succession. That is what makes Bolt Escape Expensive and of that cost, 10% from Expert Mage is not really 10% less magicka cost.

(not counting that cost reduction is nerfed in general as we all know)

Just no. I have no other words for that.
If casted in rapid succession the base cost of bolt escape gets doubled. After that all cost reduction will get applied (on the doubled base cost). This is why 10% reduction is VERY noticable when using bolt escape in rapid succession.

Edit: Sry i needed to bait a little for that one its a common misconception that cost reduce does not work within the 4 seconds of increased bolt escape cost - which is simply wrong.

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

Because the cost of Bolt Escape more than 4 seconds after the last one is next to nothing if you have some reduction already and the reduction doesn't count for the increase when casting in quick succession. That is what makes Bolt Escape Expensive and of that cost, 10% from Expert Mage is not really 10% less magicka cost.

(not counting that cost reduction is nerfed in general as we all know)

Just no. I have no other words for that.
If casted in rapid succession the base cost of bolt escape gets doubled. After that all cost reduction will get applied (on the doubled base cost). This is why 10% reduction is VERY noticable when using bolt escape in rapid succession.

Edit: Sry i needed to bait a little for that one its a common misconception that cost reduce does not work within the 4 seconds of increased bolt escape cost - which is simply wrong.

No problem, I just tested it again and I think you are wrong .

Base cost without any reduction: 3351

In succession: 4821 = 3351 + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.123 * 3351)

"Base" with 5% Reduction from Dark Magic Passive: 3204 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.123 * 3351)

Again, in succession: 4674 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.123 * 3351) + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.123 * 3351)

The formulas are not exact but much closer than if the cost reduction would work on the 50% cost increase.

Edit: Wasn't it 12.3% ? maybe that would explain smaller differences. Also I am surprised that "nerf" to cost reduction works on the cost increase, too ^^.

Edit2: Yes, it is correct if I change the factor 0.133 to 0.123 and always round up (changed).

Derra

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

Because the cost of Bolt Escape more than 4 seconds after the last one is next to nothing if you have some reduction already and the reduction doesn't count for the increase when casting in quick succession. That is what makes Bolt Escape Expensive and of that cost, 10% from Expert Mage is not really 10% less magicka cost.

(not counting that cost reduction is nerfed in general as we all know)

Just no. I have no other words for that.
If casted in rapid succession the base cost of bolt escape gets doubled. After that all cost reduction will get applied (on the doubled base cost). This is why 10% reduction is VERY noticable when using bolt escape in rapid succession.

Edit: Sry i needed to bait a little for that one its a common misconception that cost reduce does not work within the 4 seconds of increased bolt escape cost - which is simply wrong.

No problem, I just tested it again and I think you are wrong .

Base cost without any reduction: 3351

In succession: 4821 = 3351 + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

"Base" with 5% Reduction from Dark Magic Passive: 3204 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

Again, in succession: 4674 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351) + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

The formulas are not exact but much closer than if the cost reduction would work on the 50% cost increase.

Edit: Wasn't it 12.3% ? maybe that would explain smaller differences. Also I am surprised that "nerf" to cost reduction works on the cost increase, too ^^.

Oh nice. Test with jewelry cost reduction. That one works on the increase - thats what you get for being lazy.

Still 330 more cost is a noticable increase on BE even with % based not working on the cast.

ToRelax

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It was a straight nerf to bolt escape in pvp that was poorly disguised as a pve buff (while also changing the scaling of spellpower for abilities in general making it completely pointless as max magica offers more benefits than spelldmg on sets now).

Just no. Bolt Escape cost is reduced the least by cost reduction, it doesn't make a big difference.

Besides that, set Boni not always have the same values at same quality/level, 2 Adroitness and 2 Cyrodiil's Light is a nice little Bonus if you don't have magicka problems.

Point that at high champion levels max magica offers more than spelldmg for set bonuses still stands though (Also thanks for sharing obvious set combinations - imho you sacrifice too much by slotting 2 or 3 2-piece bonuses)?

Also the increase cost to bolt escape is quite noticeable (how can you say it was reduced the least - 10% is 10%).

Because the cost of Bolt Escape more than 4 seconds after the last one is next to nothing if you have some reduction already and the reduction doesn't count for the increase when casting in quick succession. That is what makes Bolt Escape Expensive and of that cost, 10% from Expert Mage is not really 10% less magicka cost.

(not counting that cost reduction is nerfed in general as we all know)

Just no. I have no other words for that.
If casted in rapid succession the base cost of bolt escape gets doubled. After that all cost reduction will get applied (on the doubled base cost). This is why 10% reduction is VERY noticable when using bolt escape in rapid succession.

Edit: Sry i needed to bait a little for that one its a common misconception that cost reduce does not work within the 4 seconds of increased bolt escape cost - which is simply wrong.

No problem, I just tested it again and I think you are wrong .

Base cost without any reduction: 3351

In succession: 4821 = 3351 + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

"Base" with 5% Reduction from Dark Magic Passive: 3204 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

Again, in succession: 4674 = 3351 - 0.05 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351) + 0.5 * (3351 - 0.133 * 3351)

The formulas are not exact but much closer than if the cost reduction would work on the 50% cost increase.

Edit: Wasn't it 12.3% ? maybe that would explain smaller differences. Also I am surprised that "nerf" to cost reduction works on the cost increase, too ^^.

Oh nice. Test with jewelry cost reduction. That one works on the increase - thats what you get for being lazy.

Still 330 more cost is a noticable increase on BE even with % based not working on the cast.

Hahaha, than I was just as lazy as you not thinking of "flat" jewelry reduction . And sure, it is noticeable, I just wouldn't think they'd increase the cost on all Stormcalling spells more than that on Bolt Escape if they wanted to specifically nerf that one ^^.