Let the mobs roam FREE!!!! (within reason of course)

Ommamar

I have heard this line of thought since EQ began to dominate the industry of MMORPG. It sounds good from a player perspective but developers like control the more "freedom" you give to an AI the more likely odd things will occur. I remember in Oblivion a guard had gotten of his (why where they all male?) horse to fight a wisp. Somehow the horse got involved and the wisp ended up on the horse. The horses AI said run when hit, the Wisps AI said hit, and the poor guards AI said chase the wisp. So there was this funny keystone cop scenario of this guard chasing a wisp riding on his horse. It was funny but I guarantee if that occurred in this game the developers would be tearing their hair out trying to figure it out.
I agree that the technology is there but game developers are a very conservative lot. If someone has had success doing things in a theme park way they will like mirror that with minor variations. For true ground breaking I would look to indie or start up games.

Gidorick

Ommamar wrote: »

I have heard this line of thought since EQ began to dominate the industry of MMORPG. It sounds good from a player perspective but developers like control the more "freedom" you give to an AI the more likely odd things will occur. I remember in Oblivion a guard had gotten of his (why where they all male?) horse to fight a wisp. Somehow the horse got involved and the wisp ended up on the horse. The horses AI said run when hit, the Wisps AI said hit, and the poor guards AI said chase the wisp. So there was this funny keystone cop scenario of this guard chasing a wisp riding on his horse. It was funny but I guarantee if that occurred in this game the developers would be tearing their hair out trying to figure it out.
I agree that the technology is there but game developers are a very conservative lot. If someone has had success doing things in a theme park way they will like mirror that with minor variations. For true ground breaking I would look to indie or start up games.

that sounds awesome! Is there a video of this?

olsborg

It would be more fun (and risk) if monsters didnt despawn quite so fast quite so soon.

P3ZZL3

In principle I agree, but wouldn't like to run round a corner to see 25 v13 Wasps waiting for me in Craglorn......

UrQuan

Ommamar wrote: »

I remember in Oblivion a guard had gotten of his (why where they all male?) horse to fight a wisp. Somehow the horse got involved and the wisp ended up on the horse. The horses AI said run when hit, the Wisps AI said hit, and the poor guards AI said chase the wisp. So there was this funny keystone cop scenario of this guard chasing a wisp riding on his horse.

Oh man, I would freaking love to see that!

Gidorick

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

In principle I agree, but wouldn't like to run round a corner to see 25 v13 Wasps waiting for me in Craglorn......

But imagine gathering a group of players together to combine forces to rise up and overtake the wasp "hive"... It would be a memorable experience!

Now if this happened ALL the time, it would get old, fast.

Arki

I love the idea! For me the static mobs are one of the worst immersion breakers. It reminds me all the time that this is a game, something that never was a problem with the single player games in the series.

I think the devs could transition towards something like this by giving mobs alot more sensible things to do in the environment. Then create pathing to and from different activities and combine this into static "assignments". Each type of mob in a spesific area could then be given a fixed list of possible assignments. Then when a mob respawns, give it a random assignment from this list.

... and then if the servers can handle it: Make the assignments dynamic at spawn, or even dynamic and reactive towards other mobs assignments *dreams on...*

In a system like this they could ensure that mobs didn't "zerg" simply by ensuring that the same type of assignments are given to no more than two or three mobs. They could even have suitable group sizes converge towards each other by syncing up pathing schedules for mobs with goals in the same locations.

NotSo

Whatever the case, if mobs were allowed to roam free then PVE would be fresh and enjoyable. Right now all you have to do is buff prior to jumping into a static mob and not worry about other mobs wandering in which makes all PVE fights very repetitive and lame. I need there to be fights that get too heated after x amount of mobs find their way to me so I have to retreat. Enough of mobs watching their friends get blown to bits and just being like "meh". Even worse when it's a patrol that steps over to their dead friends and doesn't react any differently than if they were alive.

P3ZZL3

This would actually be a VERY good thread for Gina to prove that the Devs ARE willing to come in the forums and explain maybe why it could/could not/won't be done?

IrishGirlGamer

Very nice idea. I think it's strange how I can take something's life - a bandit or a wolf or something - and everything within sight of my kill, allies and enemies alike, are nodding sagely as if to say, "Nice shot!"

Gidorick

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Very nice idea. I think it's strange how I can take something's life - a bandit or a wolf or something - and everything within sight of my kill, allies and enemies alike, are nodding sagely as if to say, "Nice shot!"

lol. they appreciate good work... on this note, it would be awesome to see some mobs run away after you've slaughtered their friend!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqQM6zd-ej0

Soulshine

I would like to see this taken a step further, and have them actually hunt players. I mean why should the AI be limited to them just roaming free and pathing around, but yet still be tethered to the same mechanic? If they had specific behaviors other than attacking if/when you come across them (as now) that is one thing, still boring after a while no matter how many. But it would be totally different if the AI given each "species" had specific behaviors based on the zones they were in and who was there.

Course the flip side of all this "freedom" is the risk of training, which griefers could then abuse. BUt it would still be worth it.

dodgehopper_ESO

When they were first promoting this game (before early testing) I can remember developers talking about how NPC's would have a smart ai. This ai would allow an npc to not only use synergies on you and create npc teamwork, but also some of those npc's could run away and go grab their buddies. This almost never appears. I do think it'd be pretty cool if the npc's were a little smarter, like they were originally airing them to be. Maybe too many players complained in early test phase, I don't know. I couldn't get in during the early test phase because Time Warner cable and ESO clashed. (They still do by the way, the only way I can access my game account is on my smart phone or at a coffee shop or such... pretty bad).

Gidorick

Soulshine wrote: »

I would like to see this taken a step further, and have them actually hunt players. I mean why should the AI be limited to them just roaming free and pathing around, but yet still be tethered to the same mechanic? If they had specific behaviors other than attacking if/when you come across them (as now) that is one thing, still boring after a while no matter how many. But it would be totally different if the AI given each "species" had specific behaviors based on the zones they were in and who was there.

Course the flip side of all this "freedom" is the risk of training, which griefers could then abuse. BUt it would still be worth it.

Senche-Tigers should definitely hunt us... and Trolls. I hate those things.

Gidorick

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

When they were first promoting this game (before early testing) I can remember developers talking about how NPC's would have a smart ai. This ai would allow an npc to not only use synergies on you and create npc teamwork, but also some of those npc's could run away and go grab their buddies. This almost never appears. I do think it'd be pretty cool if the npc's were a little smarter, like they were originally airing them to be. Maybe too many players complained in early test phase, I don't know. I couldn't get in during the early test phase because Time Warner cable and ESO clashed. (They still do by the way, the only way I can access my game account is on my smart phone or at a coffee shop or such... pretty bad).

Early expectations and lofty goals are almost always a recipe for disaster.

Soulshine

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

When they were first promoting this game (before early testing) I can remember developers talking about how NPC's would have a smart ai. This ai would allow an npc to not only use synergies on you and create npc teamwork, but also some of those npc's could run away and go grab their buddies. This almost never appears. I do think it'd be pretty cool if the npc's were a little smarter, like they were originally airing them to be. Maybe too many players complained in early test phase, I don't know. I couldn't get in during the early test phase because Time Warner cable and ESO clashed. (They still do by the way, the only way I can access my game account is on my smart phone or at a coffee shop or such... pretty bad).

Mobs do work together in dungeons but not like I thought they would either based on the same information we heard about AI before live. I like that they will tell each other to separate or cast fire or pick off the healer ( you can hear them yelling at each other if paying attention) but then that in of itself rather defeats the purpose since you know what they are going to do. Animals can't speak so you don't get those kinds of warnings, but their behaviors are all fairly lackluster.

I confess I was hoping for more since one of the things I really enjoyed in LotrO was the very simple yet effective little AI they gave to gobblins, who will fight you tooth and nail for a while, then ditch you suddenly when they see they are getting too low on health... they will come back with like 5 more goblins to stop your a$$, lol.

Ackwalan

If this was technically possible, I don't think it would work. Because of terrain the mobs would get bunched up and you would have patches of excessive mobs and patches that were barren of mobs.

Gidorick

Ackwalan wrote: »

If this was technically possible, I don't think it would work. Because of terrain the mobs would get bunched up and you would have patches of excessive mobs and patches that were barren of mobs.

AI could solve this. Some mobs could congregate while others could be programed to stay away from one another. It would have to be random-with-rules.

Iluvrien

Gidorick wrote: »

AI could solve this. Some mobs could congregate while others could be programed to stay away from one another. It would have to be random-with-rules.

No kidding. Considering that I can already be fighting 4 mobs in a bandit camp (or some such thing) and 15 seconds later two more can attack me from behind (fixed patrol routes) I think some rules to prevent excessive bunching and ambushing might be nice. I have no desire to be turfed out, and kept out, of an area I am supposed to be questing in because all of the mobs in it suddenly decided to have a tea party!

Gidorick

Iluvrien wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

AI could solve this. Some mobs could congregate while others could be programed to stay away from one another. It would have to be random-with-rules.

No kidding. Considering that I can already be fighting 4 mobs in a bandit camp (or some such thing) and 15 seconds later two more can attack me from behind (fixed patrol routes) I think some rules to prevent excessive bunching and ambushing might be nice. I have no desire to be turfed out, and kept out, of an area I am supposed to be questing in because all of the mobs in it suddenly decided to have a tea party!

Part of that is how quickly the mobs regenerate. Sometimes it seems like they pop up TOO fast. If I'm in an area that has mobs that are above my level it takes a bit to kill the enemies. Often, by the time I'm done with a group of mobs, the ones I killed before have re-spawned. I'm sure it's a hard balance to achieve.

Faulgor

NotSo wrote: »

Ragnarok Online had mobs that would spawn on random coordinates inside a given area, their AI would plot a random point within x distance and they would walk there and wait for a couple seconds, then repeat. In some rare cases their pathing would not allow them to leave a certain area but most of the time they just wandered to the edge of the map. The random marching around led to some areas of maps being completely deserted and other areas being completely packed full.
Though some people might not think this is ideal, I found it to be f***ing great because mobs weren't distributed evenly and they often gave you a scare when you accidentally walk into a group of 10+ (up to 50) and you have to high tail it out of there.
The random spawning also caused some jump scares when they spawn right behind you. ESO has a buffer between when they spawn and when they react, but they always spawn in the same defined location which feels kind of sucky. The wrong with it is after you figure out that all mobs spawn in the exact same place every time, ESO feels more like a game and less like a world.

Another great thing about this was the aspect of "mobflow". With more people on the map killing stuff, the spawnrate - i.e., the amount of mobs that respawn per minute - would increase. Thus, it was actually preferable not to have the whole area for yourself, but share it with more people. With enough people, you could stay in a relatively small area and mobs would simply respawn around you.
ESO is the opposite - more than 2 or 3 people per grinding area, and you are inhibiting each others exp.

Random and instant spawns in a given area are just more fun, organic and multiplayer-friendly than delayed spawns at fixed locations.

jdroebuckb16_ESO

Great thread. All the "bunching" issues you are nervous about are old school issues back from 1995 and AI technology has moved on so much since then outside the gaming world it is untrue. It just takes a bit of time and effort with a dedicated AI team to get this right.

There was a great article about AI in an EDGE magazine I read about a year ago and I saw a similar one on IGN a few months back. When devs put their teams together there is barely anyone responsible for AI. They just make sure mobs don't do stupid things and at best they will have very obvious pre-determined behaviour patterns that only respond to the environment in a very minor way.

I think the problem is cost vs benefit. Whereas we the gamers would love smart AI the devs see it far down their priority list. That list is often generated by what creates most profit. I have no issues with that as this is a business and they need to make money. However, I do think they underestimate the impact of a game that has absolutely top notch AI using latest technology.

arqe

Great idea but not practical for an MMO. But what NPC's would roam free ? I mean , even in real world which animals roam free because they got whole forests / deserts or any area that is available for them ? None , only when the season changes.

NotSo

I think the "bunching issues" would actually benefit. Just give them a little AI when they are in large groups so when they see you approach they treat it as a challenge; 90% of the group will form a mosh and jeer you, 10% of the group will wander up and ready weapons. After slaying that 10%, another 15% approach but if you kill them then the whole swarm rushes you and you better have a GTFO skill readied. Applied to groups up to four, anything larger will have to face the whole bunch. The mosh would be fairly open around you so you wouldn't have to worry so much about extra aggro with AOE but you could totally do that if you wanted to.
I think there's plenty of humanoid mobs that this would apply to.
In addition, some non-humanoids could be made to not aggro on sight (while they are bunched up), but to rather aggro near fellow mobs being attacked. So if there's a large group, you can still wade through everything even if attacking them would be chaos.

Lord_Kreegan

This sort of discussion comes up in every game. It is unfortunately nothing but wishful thinking. I wish it wasn't; every damn time I fight a mob and have to kite it, and it hits the limit of its tether and resets, I curse rather loudly... especially if it was almost dead. That really pisses me off...

However, been there and done that.

Remember that AI in games isn't really "artificial intelligence"; it's actually not even close. True AI for just a simple implementation would have a larger executable than the whole game code as it currently exists and still wouldn't behave very effectively. There are mountains of reference material available online for anyone who wants to read up on it.

So-called AI in games is nothing more than scripting of prearranged actions; NPCs don't "think". Every situation they must react to is predefined and must be capable of definition in algorithmic (mathematical) terms. At best the AI is a sort of minimalistic "expert system" with predefined decision gates. The "experts" are the developers who decide how the mobs should behave in the various "situations", and all of those "situations" are predefined in easily measured terms for a computer (e.g., distance from a tether point; crossing of an action threshold).

Consider how many different decisions you make as a player and then stop for a moment and look at all the different inputs you use in making those decisions. You can't realistically do that in a game and expect it to perform well.

Good games are created by making simple scripts provide realistic behavior. It targets the "suspension of disbelief" maxim that predominantly dictates game design. If you ever did any modding for Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim and looked at their scripts, you found that they were actually very simplistic, yet provided decent NPC behavior. Contrast that with scripts for Neverwinter Nights, if you ever modded there, where the scripts defining behaviors could be relatively much more complex -- and, as such, seriously bogged down game performance -- but didn't really provide any more realistic behavior than the scripting in the Elder Scrolls games.

I'd be happy -- not ecstatic, but happy -- if mobs just didn't instantly recover all of their hitpoints when they reset at the limit of their tethers. Kiting -- especially in a game like ESO -- is a very valid tactic for beating tougher mobs... in all games except ESO. In ESO, kiting too often means you have just wasted your potions because the mob resets... as if it isn't bad enough that they can insta-kill us...

Dreamo84

Probably not worth the coding effort. It's just not that kind of MMORPG.

Gidorick

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Probably not worth the coding effort. It's just not that kind of MMORPG.

It COULD be...

NotSo

I think it's absolutely worth the trouble

UrQuan

arqe wrote: »

I mean , even in real world which animals roam free because they got whole forests / deserts or any area that is available for them ? None , only when the season changes.

Um, what? I don't think you understand much about animals in the real world. Predators (especially apex predators) must roam over a large territory in order to survive, the size of which depends largely on the amount of available prey in the area. For example, a male mountain lion has a territory of about 150 - 1000 square km. A wolf pack has a territory of about 750 - 2500 square km.

SanderBuraas

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

So-called AI in games is nothing more than scripting of prearranged actions; NPCs don't "think". Every situation they must react to is predefined and must be capable of definition in algorithmic (mathematical) terms. At best the AI is a sort of minimalistic "expert system" with predefined decision gates. The "experts" are the developers who decide how the mobs should behave in the various "situations", and all of those "situations" are predefined in easily measured terms for a computer (e.g., distance from a tether point; crossing of an action threshold).

Artifical intelligence should explain itself. It's artificial, meaning it's created, though there is a lot of various ai that exists. What we're asking for in accordance to mob ai, is simply that they are able to walk within a specific range and perhaps perform various actions such as the npcs in towns. Zenimax stated in one of their livestreams, showcasing update new content, how the npcs are programmed to be able to walk randomly within a set area - so why not implement this for hostile mobs?