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Sorcerer Daedric Summoning - rewrite
Jar_Ek
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Currently Daedric Summoning is most noticeable through the number of Toggle abilities it has. Although 1.6.2 has made pets better, it has not addressed the fundamental problem with toggles - which is that they do not make for a dynamic and interesting play-style as they are inherently a static ability (basically a passive effect).
In addition most Toggles tend to be placed on both bars to prevent the pet / ability deactivating on a weapon swap. This coupled with a spell cost, a reduction in maximum magicka, and a cast time (for Twilight) means that the Toggled abilities must be very good to be worth the investment...
My suggestion:
In order to make the investment in toggled abilities worth-while and to increase the range of dynamic game-play options, all toggles that are placed on both bars should gain an active ability (a little like defensive posture has a passive effect from being slotted and an active). The initial activation of the ability sets the toggle on and to actively detoggle it is a CTRL+ability (or similar dual key-press by default]). Any use of the normal activation key after the toggle has been set on, activates a secondary ability based on the nature of the skill.
Example abilities are
Familiar: Activation ability: Daedric explosion
Active ability: AoE explosion at familiar location. Costs magicka.
Clanfear: Activation ability: Tail swipe.
Active ability: AoE knockdown + damage (equiv to Daedric explosion) at clanfear location.
Unstable Familiar: Activation ability: Unstable explosion
Active ability: Causes an AoE explosion + stun at familiar location. Costs magicka.
Winged Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability: Performs a heal on caster. Costs magicka
Restoring Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability as Winged Twilight. Morph provides a magicka regeneration aura
Twilight Matriarch: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability as Winged Twilight (cost stamina?). Morph provides a stamina regeneration aura
Bound Armour: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes magicka based on damage absorbed. Costs stamina
Bound Aegis: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
Active ability: As Bound Armour
Bound Armament: Activation ability: Azura's nullification shield
Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes stamina based on damage absorbed. Costs magicka
Note that other toggles in game would need the same treatment (such as Mage Light), but that is outside the scope of this discussion / reimagining as this is about sorcerer class abilities.
In addition sorcerers do not have any good group buffs / capabilities. A solution is to rework the daedric summoning line such that it can also be used as a support line. This could be done through the following changes:
Change Expert Summoner:
As it is this passive is weak - in that it only affects 1/2 of the skill tree abilities. It does nothing for Wards, Bound Armour, or Curses. So if we have to have a pet buff, lets have a proper per buff.
Suggestion: All Pets receive additional health from Expert Summoner as well as additional damage. Twilights gain a chain lightning effect (minor AoE, +2 targets). Familiars gain a charge ability. Atronach gains range and taunt (if sorcerer is only one on hate table).
Change Rebate to Symbiosis
This passive does nothing until the pet dies - and pets are only 2 out of the 5 skills in the tree. So this passive is really, really, really poor. It doesn't increase DPS, it doesn't really help with magicka sustainment, it doesn't do anything unless your pet dies... and the chances are that only one would be recast in combat anyway as the other has a cast time. So just remove the max magicka penalty from the summons (the Toggle is enough of a penalty) and we can have a decent passive here.
Suggestion: Symbiosis
Pets receives sorcerer's current major and minor buffs at 50% / 100% strength. Unless our pets already gain our buffs (which I don't think they do)
Change Daedric Protection:
The health regeneration is not a great passive for most sorcerers, it helps tanks somewhat, if they have any abilities from this line. A straight bonus to maximum health for every ability on the bar would be better, maybe 5%.
Change Conjured Ward
Conjured Ward can ward the sorcerer and up to 2 additional allies of the sorcerer.
If the sorcerer has pets active these are the first allies warded.
If the sorcerer has placed a daedric curse, then conjured ward will affect the two closest allies to the target of the curse (unless a pet has taken one or more of these wards), otherwise they will affect those closest to the sorcerer.
Conjured wards cast from multiple sorcerers do not stack.
This would allow sorcerer healers to be more effective (i.e. perform bubble healing).
Change Daedric Curse
Make this an actual DoT with a detonation at the end of the duration, such that other abilities can proc.
Change Daedric Prey
The recipients of a Conjured Ward, receive the benefits of a symbiotic relationship with the sorcerer (i.e. get the symbiosis passive buffs) for the duration of the ward only (note this is not quite as powerful as it first seems as these buffs will drop as soon as the ward does, do not stack and as the ward is unaffected by armour/spell resist buffs, these will not affect the recipient in real terms).
In addition most Toggles tend to be placed on both bars to prevent the pet / ability deactivating on a weapon swap. This coupled with a spell cost, a reduction in maximum magicka, and a cast time (for Twilight) means that the Toggled abilities must be very good to be worth the investment...
My suggestion:
In order to make the investment in toggled abilities worth-while and to increase the range of dynamic game-play options, all toggles that are placed on both bars should gain an active ability (a little like defensive posture has a passive effect from being slotted and an active). The initial activation of the ability sets the toggle on and to actively detoggle it is a CTRL+ability (or similar dual key-press by default]). Any use of the normal activation key after the toggle has been set on, activates a secondary ability based on the nature of the skill.
Example abilities are
Familiar: Activation ability: Daedric explosion
Active ability: AoE explosion at familiar location. Costs magicka.
Clanfear: Activation ability: Tail swipe.
Active ability: AoE knockdown + damage (equiv to Daedric explosion) at clanfear location.
Unstable Familiar: Activation ability: Unstable explosion
Active ability: Causes an AoE explosion + stun at familiar location. Costs magicka.
Winged Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability: Performs a heal on caster. Costs magicka
Restoring Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability as Winged Twilight. Morph provides a magicka regeneration aura
Twilight Matriarch: Activation ability: Azura's light
Active ability as Winged Twilight (cost stamina?). Morph provides a stamina regeneration aura
Bound Armour: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes magicka based on damage absorbed. Costs stamina
Bound Aegis: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
Active ability: As Bound Armour
Bound Armament: Activation ability: Azura's nullification shield
Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes stamina based on damage absorbed. Costs magicka
Note that other toggles in game would need the same treatment (such as Mage Light), but that is outside the scope of this discussion / reimagining as this is about sorcerer class abilities.
In addition sorcerers do not have any good group buffs / capabilities. A solution is to rework the daedric summoning line such that it can also be used as a support line. This could be done through the following changes:
Change Expert Summoner:
As it is this passive is weak - in that it only affects 1/2 of the skill tree abilities. It does nothing for Wards, Bound Armour, or Curses. So if we have to have a pet buff, lets have a proper per buff.
Suggestion: All Pets receive additional health from Expert Summoner as well as additional damage. Twilights gain a chain lightning effect (minor AoE, +2 targets). Familiars gain a charge ability. Atronach gains range and taunt (if sorcerer is only one on hate table).
Change Rebate to Symbiosis
This passive does nothing until the pet dies - and pets are only 2 out of the 5 skills in the tree. So this passive is really, really, really poor. It doesn't increase DPS, it doesn't really help with magicka sustainment, it doesn't do anything unless your pet dies... and the chances are that only one would be recast in combat anyway as the other has a cast time. So just remove the max magicka penalty from the summons (the Toggle is enough of a penalty) and we can have a decent passive here.
Suggestion: Symbiosis
Pets receives sorcerer's current major and minor buffs at 50% / 100% strength. Unless our pets already gain our buffs (which I don't think they do)
Change Daedric Protection:
The health regeneration is not a great passive for most sorcerers, it helps tanks somewhat, if they have any abilities from this line. A straight bonus to maximum health for every ability on the bar would be better, maybe 5%.
Change Conjured Ward
Conjured Ward can ward the sorcerer and up to 2 additional allies of the sorcerer.
If the sorcerer has pets active these are the first allies warded.
If the sorcerer has placed a daedric curse, then conjured ward will affect the two closest allies to the target of the curse (unless a pet has taken one or more of these wards), otherwise they will affect those closest to the sorcerer.
Conjured wards cast from multiple sorcerers do not stack.
This would allow sorcerer healers to be more effective (i.e. perform bubble healing).
Change Daedric Curse
Make this an actual DoT with a detonation at the end of the duration, such that other abilities can proc.
Change Daedric Prey
The recipients of a Conjured Ward, receive the benefits of a symbiotic relationship with the sorcerer (i.e. get the symbiosis passive buffs) for the duration of the ward only (note this is not quite as powerful as it first seems as these buffs will drop as soon as the ward does, do not stack and as the ward is unaffected by armour/spell resist buffs, these will not affect the recipient in real terms).
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Voltos✭✭✭These are some very creative ideas. I love the concept of toggles having secondary effects, however, I would still prefer to have them only require 1 ability slot to remain active when switching bars.
Also, your idea for creating a synergy between Daedric Curse and Conjured Ward is just awesome. It would really make the Daedric Summoning tree shine as the superior support line.
Wonderful concepts here. Cheers.Edited by Voltos on February 15, 2015 10:09PM3 -
ItsRejectz✭✭✭✭✭Really like some of them ideas, still hate the thought of toggles thoughXbox EU - GT: o69 Woody 69o
VR16 Sorc: Vlad V Impaler
VR16 Sorc: Yes it's Woody
VR16 NB: Prince of Wallachia
VR16 Templar: Sir Lancelot the Brave
VR16 DK: I'm Better Than You0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Don't get me wrong, I am not asking to keep the Toggles really... just thinking if we gotta have them, then lets get something from them!0
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Aimelin✭✭✭Don't get me wrong, I am not asking to keep the Toggles really... just thinking if we gotta have them, then lets get something from them!
that doesn't follow the entire "play as you want" view on the game they advertise .. as other classes have called on that statement before when nerfs / changes were needed ....1 -
Kragorn✭✭✭✭✭Playing a pet sorc the way ZOS want you to is so reminiscent of several classes in GW2 when you would often have 3 or 4 'toggles' slotted .. difference was of course you had 10 skill slots and the 'toggles' provided passives that had some use when the skill wasn't active.
Unless and until ZOS make it so that pets stay out even when the second Action Bar doesn't slot, a pet Sorc will remain a one or two button playstyle.
Sad.Edited by Kragorn on February 16, 2015 8:40AM1 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭To be honest, I like the Toggles and the Pets. What I dislike is the way it limits our skillbars.
With Clanfear, Twilight and Atronarch you can literally kill everything out there quite easily and I like that. In 1.6 our pets are even better and give us advantages (give mana instead of taking it), but the toggle issue is still there.
And to be honest: I don't know how that can be solved. As OP mentioned, maybe give every "Toggle" a distinct attack with CD next to summoning the pet.0 -
Keron✭✭✭✭✭
✭how about having 1 toggle button that has to go on each skill bar to keep it activated and a secondary bar (call it "toggle-bar" if you will) with up to three slots that can hold toggle-able abilities. Whenever you toggle active the toggle button on your skill bar, all the toggle abilities on your "toggle-bar" are set active.
you still have to spend a slot on your bar, it could be used for all classes (not just sorc) for inner light. the first slot is free for all, the others are gained by a passive skill in the soul magic tree (with second slot being gated at soul magic rank 4, and the last one at 6).
for all other classes, you'd gain nought (still one slot taken) but the pet sorc would regain one or two active slots if he'd spend the skill points.
That would also open up for other/new toggle skills. Of course the pet skills would have to be re-balanced then around not taking up additional skill slots.
Just food for thought. would probably end in a nightmare of balancing and nerfs...4 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭These are some very creative ideas. I love the concept of toggles having secondary effects, however, I would still prefer to have them only require 1 ability slot to remain active when switching bars.
Also, your idea for creating a synergy between Daedric Curse and Conjured Ward is just awesome. It would really make the Daedric Summoning tree shine as the superior support line.
Wonderful concepts here. Cheers.
Same I would like the aspect of toggling taken out of the game. Right now its just become to resource intensive to plan around. If they can't do it because they shortsightedly hard coded it, then the original posters ideas would at least making them very fun to use.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Definitely an interesting post. I do like the idea of having greater control over what the pets are doing ( like the hunter pets in WoW ) and I agree the passives on the summoner tree are a little weak as they only affect a portion of the active skills.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Creative ideas, some of which I've put forth back in beta (having the pet button activate a special ability through the pet when hitting it while it's summoned, for example). You actually used to not need the pet on your active bar for it to stay summoned, but they eventually changed that long before launch so that it would only stay summoned if it's slotted on a given bar. You also originally couldn't tell the pet what target to attack, but they thankfully listened to the feedback there and gave us a key to combo with light or heavy attack to tell it to hit your target or go passive, respectively.
I do want to note that Rebate is a major component as a passive for some builds thanks to the pet special effects (pvp of course, but even solo farming/grinding for champion points) since if you gear/build right it makes the pets ultimately free to cast (basically a loaner on magicka) since you get the full amount of your magicka spent summoning them back once it's dead/desummoned. Also, of course, acts as an extra mini mana battery since you can keep it summoned and enter combat with it already up
.
This actually factors into a build I want to use when 1.6 hits live
, and I'd hate to see the sorc's Rebate passive changed to something else entirely. Edited by Attorneyatlawl on February 21, 2015 8:45PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Jar_Ek✭✭✭✭✭Ah, I hadn't considered the rebate build with Unstable familiar, or the new health rebate with Clanfear. So I can understand the wish to keep Rebate... however as it stands it is still weak for most other builds. However if Rebate were to be kept, then Expert Summoner could become Symbiosis? Regardless I hope this provides some food for thought for the devs 0
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Lionxoft✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
This actually factors into a build I want to use when 1.6 hits live, and I'd hate to see the sorc's Rebate passive changed to something else entirely.
Yes, everyone wants to use the extremely OP clannfear heal for the free cast 20k+ instant heal.0 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
This actually factors into a build I want to use when 1.6 hits live, and I'd hate to see the sorc's Rebate passive changed to something else entirely.
Yes, everyone wants to use the extremely OP clannfear heal for the free cast 20k+ instant heal.
In your example, the sorc has 57k base health? That seems unlikely.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
Lionxoft✭✭✭✭✭
✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »
This actually factors into a build I want to use when 1.6 hits live, and I'd hate to see the sorc's Rebate passive changed to something else entirely.
Yes, everyone wants to use the extremely OP clannfear heal for the free cast 20k+ instant heal.
In your example, the sorc has 57k base health? That seems unlikely.
*Sigh* You're missing healing received bonuses in your nearsighted equation.
In crappy trial gear and 42k health (Not hard to reach at all) it triggers 20k heal.Edited by Lionxoft on February 22, 2015 10:09AM0 -
AshTal✭✭✭✭I like the ideas. I have to have summons on both bars because otherwise they are constantly vanishing and need to be resummoned. Also they are very week so anything to make the better would be great.
Personally I would also like to change what my pets look like. Maybe even through the crown shop. However I suspect they will have to make pets better so more people use them before summoned pet costumes would make any cash.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the idea of active management of the pets. It's far more involved that way. It would also be nice if they synergised with dark magic a bit more. Like, the twilight would burst heal any aly, and/or chain lightning any enemy in the area of encase. Or the familiar could leap on anyone knocked down by crystal shard. What would be fun, is if mines would 'chase' summons around... but that is likely unfeasible and stupid... Idk, something with more class synergy.
Edit: and what if, inside lightning splash, the clanfear got excited and started whipping its tail around.Edited by Shunravi on February 23, 2015 11:24PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heh, we all got ignored guys. No more patches to the PTS likely means Zenimax just said "Screw balance" or more likely "Screw sorcerers".Edit: and what if, inside lightning splash, the clanfear got excited and started whipping its tail around.
I don't like your idea, but the image of it made me LoL even though reading this forum has been so depressing lately. You get an awesome just for that.Edited by Grao on February 24, 2015 4:46AM0
