Senche Mount. Khajiit or not Khajiit? (With the response from Lawrence Schick)

Enodoc

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our resident loremaster about this and are awaiting an answer. In the meantime, we can tell you that there was some internal discussion about whether or not the Striped Senche is a Senche Tiger or not. Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Wait, what are the size of elephants? There are senche-tigers in-game now that are not the size of elephants.... unless you are systematically renaming all these mobs as just "senche", then we will be getting somewhere in realigning with established lore.

Pocket Guide 1st Edition is notorious for making incorrect assumptions, so I would not base any definitive answer on that. Similarly, A Dance in Fire is historical fiction, and may be subject to similar misconceptions.

I am sticking to the belief that the in-game senche (and senche-somethings), as well as the upcoming mount, are not the same as Senche Khajiit, based on Loremaster Lawrence's answer in the Writing AMA:

Senche-Tigers: The in-game answer is that the differences between Senche, Senche-raht, and senche-tigers are confusing and hard to understand for everyone but Khajiit.

Differences. Therefore not the same.

Smaxx

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Well, you know, I won't say no, if I get a battle cat the size of an elephant. But please give it some knockback aura so I can bash through enemies. I won't complain, promised.

Kragorn

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our resident loremaster about this and are awaiting an answer. In the meantime, we can tell you that there was some internal discussion about whether or not the Striped Senche is a Senche Tiger or not. Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Ask Bethesda, they wrote the lore of the TES series.

I don't understand how ZOS can have their own 'loremaster' when you simply developed a game using the world and the lore Bethesda developed over 20 years.

BBSooner

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our resident loremaster about this and are awaiting an answer. In the meantime, we can tell you that there was some internal discussion about whether or not the Striped Senche is a Senche Tiger or not. Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Ask Bethesda, they wrote the lore of the TES series.

I don't understand how ZOS can have their own 'loremaster' when you simply developed a game using the world and the lore Bethesda developed over 20 years.

ZOS consults Bethesda on major lore decisions, and the ZOS loremaster had been given leave to answer the others. That probably happened around the same time in beta where the tweet was posted that confirmed ESO to be canon.

IrishGirlGamer

milthalas wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

So couldn't it be making a choice to work with a non-khajiit

Technically it's being sold into slavery, but I could see why you might want to put a positive spin on that

How's this for a positive spin?

Gidorick

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our resident loremaster about this and are awaiting an answer. In the meantime, we can tell you that there was some internal discussion about whether or not the Striped Senche is a Senche Tiger or not. Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Ask Bethesda, they wrote the lore of the TES series.

I don't understand how ZOS can have their own 'loremaster' when you simply developed a game using the world and the lore Bethesda developed over 20 years.

The loremaster is like "Bethesda's liason" I think.

xaraan

milthalas wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

So couldn't it be making a choice to work with a non-khajiit

Technically it's being sold into slavery, but I could see why you might want to put a positive spin on that

At least pre-1.6 mounts got to eat a meal 50 times. Post-patch they'll just watch their masters stuff their face.


Admittedly, RP is not something I tend to do. Probably you could notice that.

Gotta spin it man. Makes me feel better when I chain him up at night.

But seriously, if they are sentient or close to, just like a dragon mount, it's not necessarily a slave if they are working with you and letting you use them as a mount, like a team.

Roechacca

Let's leave a little mystery out there for Khajiit . We don't have to know everything ...

Throren

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Well, that would be Senche-Raht. Regular Senche Khajiit are about 7 feet tall at the shoulder. It all depends on the moon phase said Khajiit was born under.

Ganacampo

Gidorick wrote: »

And just because they're named "Senche" didn't mean they're Khajiit.

On earth the animal called a Bearcat is neither a bear or a cat. The Red Panda is not a Panda. The Mountain Goat is an antelope. The Horned Toad is a lizard. The koala bear is is more a wombat than a bear.

Oh and the Mountain Chicken is a frog.

Just because it's name has Senche in it doesn't mean it's a Khajiit.

I still think they're Khajiit, I think they just got their size wrong in ESO.

Oh well, I am awaiting the lore master's answer.

dharbert

Just think of it as a dimwitted Khajiit and treat it accordingly....

Lynx7386

Everyone here is incorrect.

Normal senche are appropriately sized wildcats, and are still sentient. All of the Tigers you see in the game that are labeled senche are actually khajiit. No idea why were killing some of them, but that's what happens when zos shoots lore in the knee.

The mount is a senche-raht. Senche-raht larger than normal senche and are used as warmounts by the khajiit. The pocket guide is incorrect in it's statement that senche-raht are "20 times the size of an Altmer" - that's either a gross over exaggeration or the author actually meant 20 times the -weight- of an Altmer (which is more feasible for a horse - sized tiger, since normal tigers can weigh 800 pounds).

So yes, the striped senche is a senche-raht, and thus a khajiit. It is a sentient being that can understand language and orders, and it can even reproduce with other subspecies if khajiit.

Gidorick

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Everyone here is incorrect.

What makes you more right than Lore?

Wait...Michael Kirkbride, is that you?

Throren

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Everyone here is incorrect.

Normal senche are appropriately sized wildcats, and are still sentient. All of the Tigers you see in the game that are labeled senche are actually khajiit. No idea why were killing some of them, but that's what happens when zos shoots lore in the knee.

The mount is a senche-raht. Senche-raht larger than normal senche and are used as warmounts by the khajiit. The pocket guide is incorrect in it's statement that senche-raht are "20 times the size of an Altmer" - that's either a gross over exaggeration or the author actually meant 20 times the -weight- of an Altmer (which is more feasible for a horse - sized tiger, since normal tigers can weigh 800 pounds).

Citation needed. All lore so far points to the following


"The Senche is commonly employed by the other Khajiit breeds as a steed, presumably by will. Roughly the same height as the average Altmer, with an average weight comparable to that of twenty Altmer."

"Larger and slower than the Senche, the Senche-raht also possess a shorter body-span and straighter legs. The average Senche-raht stands as tall as two Altmer and can weigh as much or more than fifty. Like the Senche, Senche-raht are also employed as steeds, notably in battle, whence they earned the title "battlecats" from Imperial troopers."


So regular Senche are 7ft tall at the shoulder (large horse sized)

While Senche-raht stand about 13/14 feet tall at the shoulder, the size of an African elephant.

All official lore from the main TES games points to this. Senche tigers are in ESO are just that, tigers, probably named by the khajiit after real Senche because of how similar they looked.

The type of Khajiit that looks like an actual tiger in size would be the Pahmar and Pahmar-raht

technohic

I need an animation of a nord watching someone ride on of these cats, then turning and clubing a Khajiit then trying to rid them.

Nutronic

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Everyone here is incorrect.

Normal senche are appropriately sized wildcats, and are still sentient. All of the Tigers you see in the game that are labeled senche are actually khajiit. No idea why were killing some of them, but that's what happens when zos shoots lore in the knee.

The mount is a senche-raht. Senche-raht larger than normal senche and are used as warmounts by the khajiit. The pocket guide is incorrect in it's statement that senche-raht are "20 times the size of an Altmer" - that's either a gross over exaggeration or the author actually meant 20 times the -weight- of an Altmer (which is more feasible for a horse - sized tiger, since normal tigers can weigh 800 pounds).

So yes, the striped senche is a senche-raht, and thus a khajiit. It is a sentient being that can understand language and orders, and it can even reproduce with other subspecies if khajiit.

I would like to further back this up by pointing out that in The Elder Scrolls: The Infernal City & Lost Souls, one of the protagaonist meets up with a group of varried Khajiit in Elsweyr and he is introduced to Senche mounts as part of the family.

This is further supported by the fact that when they get sucked into Hirccine's realm one of the Senche makes the choice (to which is brother who is riding him agrees to) to stay behind and slow down an onslaught of deadric foes. This says they are both capable of intelligent thought, AND they are able to communicate with other Khajiit.

I would like to point out too that it isn't lore breaking to see them in the wild allied with bandits or following around rangers because any other Khajiit could make those choices too given the same station in life. Personally, I would find it even more lore breaking if they weren't seen working with others outside of just being around other Khajiit because they are individuals who while unable to talk with other Tamrielic citizens probably get on just as well if not better with their more nature bound co-inhabitants.

Gidorick

I used to think that Senche were like ape-tigers and Senche-Rahts were like a large horse. This is because of the term "stand". The Khajiit we know stand on two legs so I figured they were considering the Senche and Senche-Raht were on their hind legs to get to that height.

dharbert

Don't worry about what it is or isn't. Just be glad you get one and ride the damn thing.

IrishGirlGamer

dharbert wrote: »

Don't worry about what it is or isn't. Just be glad you get one and ride the damn thing.

^^^ This.

Gidorick

You two are free to not partake in the conversation if you find our curiosity to be foolish. You don't have to make condescending remarks to try to goad us.

Throren

Regardless, fact still remains. Pahmar and Pahmar-raht are the tiger sized Khajiit with Senche being horse sized and Senche-raht being elephant sized.

Senche-tigers are assumed to not be Khajiit/actual Senche because of the title of 'tiger' and being Pahmar/tiger sized

Gidorick

Throren wrote: »

Regardless, fact still remains. Pahmar and Pahmar-raht are the tiger sized Khajiit with Senche being horse sized and Senche-raht being elephant sized.

Senche-tigers are assumed to not be Khajiit/actual Senche because of the title of 'tiger' and being Pahmar/tiger sized

This is how I've thought as well.... I need to look more closely at the lore that mentions Senche-tigers to see everything that's said about them.

lathbury

I see that this lore is broken. so I substitute my own I'm making a massive 2 hander wielding nord to ride mine.

I HAVE THE POWER!!!

Enodoc

Throren wrote: »

All official lore from the main TES games points to this. Senche tigers are in ESO are just that, tigers, probably named by the khajiit after real Senche because of how similar they looked.

The type of Khajiit that looks like an actual tiger in size would be the Pahmar and Pahmar-raht

I like this reason.

starkerealm

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We pinged our resident loremaster about this and are awaiting an answer. In the meantime, we can tell you that there was some internal discussion about whether or not the Striped Senche is a Senche Tiger or not. Though there are some naming remnants in the game (on PTS) that say it is a Senche Tiger, it actually isn't. Apparently those beasties are the size of elephants.

Ask Bethesda, they wrote the lore of the TES series.

I don't understand how ZOS can have their own 'loremaster' when you simply developed a game using the world and the lore Bethesda developed over 20 years.

When you're developing a complex setting, you're going to lose details. This is inevitable. Hell, there's fairly important stuff from the setting for my work that I just can't remember off hand without checking the setting bible. Which would mean a lot less if I wasn't the one responsible for writing most of that in the first place.

For a setting like The Elder Scrolls, you really need specialized loremasters to keep everything straight, and even they're going to have to look some stuff up. This also applies to Bethesda. Most of the people working there are probably about as conversant in the setting as you or I. Maybe a little more. But most of them wouldn't have this kind of info.

Dekkameron

The Senche is commonly employed by the other Khajiit breeds as a steed, presumably by will. Roughly the same height as the average Altmer, with an average weight comparable to that of twenty Altmer.

I find it slightly amusing that Altmers are used as a unit of measurement

Alarra

I'll be interested to see the answer here too. We had a lot of confusion about this on the UESP wiki. Right now we've got "Online:Senche-tiger" redirecting to "Online:Senche", with the assumption that they are animals and not Khajiit, though perhaps related to them.

It's confusing: there's the striped and black ones actually called "senche-tigers", and then the spotted ones are called both "senche" and "senche-tiger" in different places, the Hero's Guide books reference a "senche-lion" but I don't think creatures with that title (just regular lions) appear in-game, and all of the above (striped, black, spotted, and lion) appear at Sleepy Senche Overlook. Oh, and then there's also the senche-panther pet, which looks similar to the existing black-colored "senche-tiger".

Add in this mount and the question as to whether they're a subspecies of Khajiit, and it gets even more confusing.

Faulgor

To increase the confusion further, Senche-tigers (the mobs) fit the description of the Pahmar and Pahmar-raht.

Pahmar

The Pahmar is similar in appearance and size to a tiger.

Pahmar-raht

The Pahmar-raht is similar to the Pahmar in appearance, although larger and possessed of a fiercer disposition.

Frankly, I think the confusion stems from ignorant Woodelves and Altmer, who point at any big cat and call it a Senche. Unable to speak the common tongue, "I'm actually a Pahmar you stupid elf" doesn't deliver the intended message.

Ganacampo

Faulgor wrote: »

Frankly, I think the confusion stems from ignorant Woodelves and Altmer, who point at any big cat and call it a Senche. Unable to speak the common tongue, "I'm actually a Pahmar you stupid elf" doesn't deliver the intended message.

I like this idea.

It's always good to blame stuff on Altmer and Bosmer.

Exstazik