Champion System: Suggestions To Make It A Little Less Over Powering

sabresandiego_ESO

Champion system will have the long term effect of deterring new players because they won't be competitive with players who have been playing the game for several years, and there is no way to catch up. A character that has been playing for 1 year, and has 400-1000 champion points is significantly stronger than someone who just bought the game and hit level 50. This type of unfair gameplay, which can't be evened out in a reasonable amount of time due to how slow the champion system is, may discourage new players in the future.

Suggested Fix: Make the champion system power significantly more front loaded and weaken the final champ levels. Someone who has been playing for a month or two should be able to aquire enough stats to at least be competitive against someone who has been playing the game for years.

madangrypally

Not sure I agree with your suggestion. I do feel they need to add in ways to counter abuses in the system.

1: Having a daily Champion Point Cap. If the system is designed to earn 1 champion point an hour then place a Champion Point Cap of 12 earnable in a day. This will prevent some finding some exploit to earn 100's a day.

2: Have Enlightenment bonus depend on the current players and communities champion point totals.

IE: An average player has 300 Champion points..
Players with 0-124 Champion Points earn 8 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 125-249 Champion Points earn 6 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 250-349 Champion Points earn 4 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 350+ Champion Points earn 2 times the enlightenment bonus.


This way new players can catch up faster and it prevents anyone from exploiting the system.

Dracane

madangrypally wrote: »

Not sure I agree with your suggestion. I do feel they need to add in ways to counter abuses in the system.

1: Having a daily Champion Point Cap. If the system is designed to earn 1 champion point an hour then place a Champion Point Cap of 12 earnable in a day. This will prevent some finding some exploit to earn 100's a day.

2: Have Enlightenment bonus depend on the current players and communities champion point totals.

IE: An average player has 300 Champion points..
Players with 0-124 Champion Points earn 8 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 125-249 Champion Points earn 6 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 250-349 Champion Points earn 4 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 350+ Champion Points earn 2 times the enlightenment bonus.


This way new players can catch up faster and it prevents anyone from exploiting the system.

I don't agree. Exploitation only happens, if there are bugs. If there aren't bugs, to gain so many points a day, then no restriction is necessary.

But I agree, something must happen. Seing how OP the champion system is making tanks and melee builds, something must happen.

GOREKIN

I disagree we don't need a cap on how much points we earn in a day. They made the enlightenment bonus to help people catch up to those who play more.

Berinima

The enlightenment bonus does not cut it. It only stacks for three days, that's it. Enlightenment does not handle the power gap that will occur between a veteran player and a new one several months down the road.

DeLindsay

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Suggested Fix: Make the champion system power significantly more front loaded and weaken the final champ levels. Someone who has been playing for a month or two should be able to aquire enough stats to at least be competitive against someone who has been playing the game for years.

It already is. Only the first 10-20 points in any given Star makes up the bulk of that stat. The last 50+ points in ALL Stars are MUCH less valuable. Read up on it HERE. As you can see some of those Stars only go to just over 6%, and it takes all 100 points to get that. The absolute highest value from any Star is 25% and the first 50 points gives you roughly 70% of that 25%.

Besides Zos will likely do what other MMO's with this type of system do. After a year or so, accounts with new LvL 50's (assuming that's still level cap) will probably start off with more CP than we will start with when 1.6 goes Live, allowing them to close the gap somewhat from day 1 of their first LvL 50. Besides there's nothing to say ZoS won't continually add to the Champion System giving it essentially unlimited growth, instead of new LvL caps like many MMO's.

ItsRejectz

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

Berinima

ItsRejectz wrote: »

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

Hmmm... Let's see. The issue is maybe that if the power gap is too big, veteran players keep on annihilating new players in PvP, new players are kicked out of dungeon groups or can't join raiding guilds then... You might feel massively stronger but you also might feel massively alone in a year or so.

DeLindsay

Berinima wrote: »

Hmmm... Let's see. The issue is maybe that if the power gap is too big, veteran players keep on annihilating new players in PvP, new players are kicked out of dungeon groups or can't join raiding guilds then... You might feel massively stronger but you also might feel massively alone in a year or so.

That happens already every single day in ESO and every other MMO out there. Most high end Raiding Guilds require you to have X gear with Y experience already in order to join them and even then put you through a few test runs to see if you're capable. In PvP, those who PvP a ton will almost always destroy new Players. It's not even a gear thing, though that helps.

Elitists will be elitists no matter what any game company does to try and beat them away with a stick. Great PvP Players and bads will always exist, no matter how much they try and make all Classes/builds equal for "fairness". Even if the Champion System and Veteran Levels didn't exist, there would be Players with the best PvE gear and Players with the best PvP gear and they would be superior to most new Players. There is no way to have progression while at the same time allowing brand new LvL 50's to have only a small gap in "power" between them and Players who've been playing for years perhaps.

technohic

madangrypally wrote: »

Not sure I agree with your suggestion. I do feel they need to add in ways to counter abuses in the system.

1: Having a daily Champion Point Cap. If the system is designed to earn 1 champion point an hour then place a Champion Point Cap of 12 earnable in a day. This will prevent some finding some exploit to earn 100's a day.

2: Have Enlightenment bonus depend on the current players and communities champion point totals.

IE: An average player has 300 Champion points..
Players with 0-124 Champion Points earn 8 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 125-249 Champion Points earn 6 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 250-349 Champion Points earn 4 times the enlightenment bonus.
Players with 350+ Champion Points earn 2 times the enlightenment bonus.


This way new players can catch up faster and it prevents anyone from exploiting the system.

I like your number 2. At least at the base.

xMovingTarget

I want to be able to get CP at the same rate regardless of how much i already have. Everything else is BS.

On top of it. Without Enlightement you can forget about XP anyway. THey need to get the regular XP rate up. Especially for ppl who only play their like 1 or 2 max VR level chars.

The PTS rates atm are way too low. Even if play all day on PTS i dont get 1 single point. A Trial boss givs 150xp.. Enlightened the same boss gives like 100k xp. This is BS if you only play your main char. Since you wont be enlightened for long.

With faster rate ppl get there quicker and it actually feels more like achieving something. Current PTS rates totally discourage me for even trying to earn 1 single point. coz it takes ridiculously long. Considering there are 3600 in total or 100 per passive.

More ppl are likely to quit because of this than over the VR Grind. ATM Champ sys is VR grind x1000..

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

xMovingTarget wrote: »

I want to be able to get CP at the same rate regardless of how much i already have. Everything else is BS.

On top of it. Without Enlightement you can forget about XP anyway. THey need to get the regular XP rate up. Especially for ppl who only play their like 1 or 2 max VR level chars.

The PTS rates atm are way too low. Even if play all day on PTS i dont get 1 single point. A Trial boss givs 150xp.. Enlightened the same boss gives like 100k xp. This is BS if you only play your main char. Since you wont be enlightened for long.

With faster rate ppl get there quicker and it actually feels more like achieving something. Current PTS rates totally discourage me for even trying to earn 1 single point. coz it takes ridiculously long. Considering there are 3600 in total or 100 per passive.

More ppl are likely to quit because of this than over the VR Grind. ATM Champ sys is VR grind x1000..

Agreed. The argument of "it's meant to take a very long time" might be true, but this is not how players see it. Everyone will be like "hey, 100 points here will make me 25% stronger with fire damage" - and there is no way that people will just accept that it takes them month to come close to this.

ChefZero

DeLindsay wrote: »

It already is. Only the first 10-20 points in any given Star makes up the bulk of that stat. The last 50+ points in ALL Stars are MUCH less valuable.

Ok, so 20x4x9=720 CP without 120 Bonus in each Star. That's a total amount of 1080 usefull CP. We will start with 70 CP...

How long will it take to earn 1080 CP? And how long will it take for new players in few years?

Faugaun

There is at least 1 champion skill where 25% of the power is unlocked with 3 Champion points. That is pretty darn front loaded the most points any star takes to unlock 25% of its potential is 14 points. At 1 hour of play a day (under enlightened status) a player will have 365+70 =435 points in a year. That's probably more than 25% power in all stats useful to me with a particular build. Playing more can only speed that up.

Shadesofkin

This might be coming from a good place, but it's an unnecessary request. Anything that artificially caps players beyond what is already in play is unfair to veteran players, is there going to be a gap between new, casual, elite, and veteran players? Sure, but there's a gap between 1st, 2nd, 3rd string, and perma bench warmers too. There are caps already in place, even if someone thinks they're not enough, they're there.

sabresandiego_ESO

The champion system is a fun progression system that keeps players feeling like they are constantly improving. Overall its a great system, but I believe the power gap at high champion levels compared to low champion levels is a bit too much. The champion system is already front loaded, but I think it should be even more front loaded than it already is. Long term players will feel like they are progressing even with .1% increases, but fresh players should be catching up at a significantly faster pace. The system is already designed this way, but I feel that the magnitude should be increased. The best way to do this in my opinion is by adjusting the health/magicka/stamina each point in warrior/mage/thief gives you so that you get significantly more with your first 400 champion points than you do with your last 3200 champion points. Fresh level 50s on new accounts should have the feeling that "I can be competitive, its reachable" when compared to people who have been playing much longer.

Champion Tree Specifics:

Builds:

Smartest way to build appears to be to put at least 3 points into everything that is somewhat useful for your build, and then crank up something super useful like "mighty" for physical damage dealers. I don't think there will be a lot of build diversity, magicka dps users will likely have similar builds, stamina dps users similar builds, healers similar builds, and tanks similar builds. There will probably be some variations in how people spend their champ points, but not a lot. I don't think diversity is the main goal of the champ system though, I think its to give you a never ending feeling of progression, like a carrot on a stick that keeps you hooked. I think it accomplishes that well. Its a fun system.

Specific Bug Checks:

-Is momentum and purge benefitting from the improved healing done, or healing taken champion lines (blessed and quick recovery)? The tooltips don't reflect it

-Does "mighty" have an adequate counter? Is it the champion armor talents?

-Are dots like poison arrow and searing strike being double reduced by thick skinned and hardy/elemental defender making them too weak?

-Are points in armor penetration/spell penetration better than direct damage buff (like mighty) against high armor/spell resistance targets (heavy armor) but worse against low spell res/armor targets (light armor)? or is direct damage increase like mighty always better than armor/spell pen.

-The wording on some of the champion trees makes it hard to figure out benefits. For example, mighty gives 1% physical damage, and precise strikes gives 1% critical damage. If you do 1000 damage, one point in mighty will make you do 1010 damage on a hit and 1515 on a crit. One point in precise strikes will make you do 1000 damage on a hit and 1510 on a crit. Why would anyone put a point into precise stikes over mighty, until the diminshing returns on mighty are low enough that precise strikes becomes worth investing into?

-Do elemental dots get double reduced from thick skinned and elemental defender in the lady tree?

-Do stamina morphed dots (like unstable flame and burning breath) get triple reduced from thick skinned, champion armor lines, and elemental defender?

-Some stamina morph abilities, like biting jabs, are not being absorbed by annulment or bone shield

-Does thick skinned effect channeled abilities like radiant destruction and soul assault? If so, then this should be added into the description

Point Investment Balance Comparisons Warrior/Mage/Thief

Warrior: The talents look pretty balanced for different builds

Mage: Apprentice and Ritual seem balanced based on whether your dps is physical or magic, but atronarch seems weak because light and heavy attacks usually aren't your primary damage source. Hybrids will have to split spending into multiple constellations within the mage, making their builds weaker.

Thief: Cost Reduction and Regeneration talents are incredibly good, shadow talents seem weak because many of them are situational, for example sneak cost and sprint cost reduction. Overall both the tower and lover seem strong, shadow seems weak and situational. Nimble also doesnt make sense, doesnt dodge rolling already avoid all damage besides channeled abilities, curses, and ground effects? Is nimble there so that you can survive better against soul assault, mine fields, and curses like magicka detonation and daedric curse, while rolling?

10/30/75/120 Passive Balance Comparison

Warrior: Everyone in pvp will likely put at least 10 points into lady for spell absorption. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just becomes part of the meta. All of the lady passives are extremely good for pvp, which will be very crit centric and burst damage oriented. All stamina users and hybrids will also go for unchained, which looks to be the strongest 120 point passive in the game.

The lord has very good point investment talents, but its passive talents are for "team players" and center arround resurrecting. This tree will likely see alot of investment from PVE and PVP healers.

The steed is good for tanks. The 10 and 30 point talents are great for pvp. The 75 point talent is too specialized because not everyone uses 1h and shield.


Mage: Ritual has good passives and overall well done.

Atronarch: I dont like any of the passives here. Too situational. Some are decent

Apprentice: Has great passives, but the 120 point talent seems weak. Magicka users already tend to have nearly never ending magicka, and won't need this.


Thief: Shadow: Most passives in thief are not directly combat related. They seem pretty well balanced with each other. The 120 point shadow talent is too situational, most kills arent with a heavy attack.

Lover: This has 2 combat related passives, ultimate on synergy, and windrunning. Both are good for pvp. Good passives.

Tower: Mediocre talents although warmount will save alot of deaths while on horse from gankers.

Overall thief passives are pretty balanced.

Final Suggestions:

-Increase the magnitude of front loading of the champion system. One way to do this is to give more health/mag/stam for early champ points and less for later ones. A 400 champion point player should be nearly as strong as a 3600 champ point player otherwise newer players will be turned off by unreachable power differences.

-Unchained looks to be the most game changing of the 120 point passives. I suggesting going over this passive thoroughly to make sure it is balanced so you don't have to nerf it in the future.

-Its usually good to add secondary effects to very situational talents. I mentioned some talents which I thought were too situational in my post. You guys did this with racials, adding secondary effects to passives that were too situational, and it might be good to do the same here with the champion system.

Lionxoft

ItsRejectz wrote: »

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

The power gap is extremely large. I think that's the main problem.

ItsRejectz

Lionxoft wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

The power gap is extremely large. I think that's the main problem.

So! If you have been playing any mmo a year longer than a new person there is going to be a massive gap. That's just how mmo's and progression works.
If after a year you was still no stronger than someone playing it a few weeks, what would be the incentive to try and progress?

sabresandiego_ESO

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

The power gap is extremely large. I think that's the main problem.

So! If you have been playing any mmo a year longer than a new person there is going to be a massive gap. That's just how mmo's and progression works.
If after a year you was still no stronger than someone playing it a few weeks, what would be the incentive to try and progress?

Fun, thats the reason you should be playing. I would never play a game that required me to play for a year straight in order to be competitive with people who have spent that amount of time. Progression has to be reasonable. Right now, the champion system is too strong despite already being front loaded.

A new level 50 should within a reasonable amount of time, maybe a month or two, be able to reach 99% of the power level of someone who has been playing for 3 years. Why? Because time invested should be a minimal part of how strong your character is, especially unreasonable time invested.

Would you play a game that required you to grind for a year in order to be competitive with people who have? I certainly wouldnt.

Trayyacakes

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

ItsRejectz wrote: »

I dont see the issues... If i don't feel stronger than a new player after a year of playing, then i'd have a problem. Sorry but i think for the amount of time and effort you need to put in, you should feel massively stronger than a new player

The power gap is extremely large. I think that's the main problem.

So! If you have been playing any mmo a year longer than a new person there is going to be a massive gap. That's just how mmo's and progression works.
If after a year you was still no stronger than someone playing it a few weeks, what would be the incentive to try and progress?

There is a difference between having a small chance and being absolutely dominated. Some people play this game now just for the pvp. Some people who will buy this game in the future may do so just for the pvp. Getting pwned is expected if you are a noob, but getting LOL ROFL Stomped, and it having nothing to do with a learning curve and everything to do with not putting enough time in the time sink to get enough Champion Points (which you will not be able to do effectively in pvp) , will cause new players to quit fast.

trimsic_ESO

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Champion system will have the long term effect of deterring new players because they won't be competitive with players who have been playing the game for several years, and there is no way to catch up. A character that has been playing for 1 year, and has 400-1000 champion points is significantly stronger than someone who just bought the game and hit level 50. This type of unfair gameplay, which can't be evened out in a reasonable amount of time due to how slow the champion system is, may discourage new players in the future.

Suggested Fix: Make the champion system power significantly more front loaded and weaken the final champ levels. Someone who has been playing for a month or two should be able to aquire enough stats to at least be competitive against someone who has been playing the game for years.

No. Don't nerf if, and implement a Tier system, as many other games do.

When you start WOW now, are you way behind the players who have played WOW for years? No, owing to the Tier system.

Sile

I'd say the final amounts of the champ system are much too high.

25% reduction? 25% regen? That's a lot. To balance it out, these things should be pushing 10% max.

As it stands, this is going to be a much worse grind than VRs.

ChefZero

Grinding CP is not progress. Mastering your class and playing as group is progress.

Dreamo84

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Champion system will have the long term effect of deterring new players because they won't be competitive with players who have been playing the game for several years, and there is no way to catch up. A character that has been playing for 1 year, and has 400-1000 champion points is significantly stronger than someone who just bought the game and hit level 50. This type of unfair gameplay, which can't be evened out in a reasonable amount of time due to how slow the champion system is, may discourage new players in the future.

Suggested Fix: Make the champion system power significantly more front loaded and weaken the final champ levels. Someone who has been playing for a month or two should be able to aquire enough stats to at least be competitive against someone who has been playing the game for years.

No. Don't nerf if, and implement a Tier system, as many other games do.

When you start WOW now, are you way behind the players who have played WOW for years? No, owing to the Tier system.

Oh god no... I hate the tier system. It's like you're never really progressing just replacing your gear.