Official Discussion Thread for "Ready for War: Orc and Redguard Armor"

DobbaDeuce

As many others have already stated here, and I stated on this PTS thread , I strongly disagree with the Redguard Light armor change. Looking through the series of pictures in this article, you quickly notice that it is the most drastic change of the 6 sets, and is a bit boggling considering the passion players have for this one specific set.

I won't say there couldn't have been improvements to the textures, but here we have a complete reworking of the style that removes the majority of what I found to be the appealing aspects of the armor.

Side by side comparison: There is nothing new here that I actually prefer over the old style. I'll take the "painted on" buckles and rope over a bizarre metal lined protective plate on my CLOTH armor any day. The helm doesn't look noticeably different other than the fact that they removed the most distinctive and unique feature from the old version. I'm not even a big fan of the redesigned cloth texture either, as now it is a bit too shiny and clean for the dusty desert dweller look that we had previously.

But personal opinion aside, it really boils down to WHY they're REPLACING armor that exists rather than ADDING new styles to the game. Just put them both in the game. Currently we have one style for Spidersilk, Ebonthread, Kresh, Ironthread, Silverweave, and Shadowspun - surely one of those can keep this old style that many people love while the rest get changed to whatever new style you guys create.

I've had brand new players walk up to my character that wears Redguard armor and whisper me, saying "wow, that armor's awesome, what level is that?" - why would you take something that elicits this reaction in yours players away? Give people the option. If they like the new style, great! If they like the old style, great! Variety is important, and with additions like the Crown Shop costumes, the game is recognizing that. Please don't simply remove a style that someone has already worked to create, and frankly looks very good.

VirtualElizabeth

Mordack wrote: »

I'm glad the boob window is gone. A warrior who leaves her chest exposed like that isn't going to survive very long. Not that boob plate armor is particularly safe, but at least without the window she has some protection there.

So agree with this! I avoided this armor all together since looked too much like Xena Warrior Princess or something from Guild Wars 2! I used to joke that armor must have been designed by a 14 year old boy!

newtinmpls

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Re redguard light armour Finally, for a desert people to no longer have their facial protection is just ludicrous.

Is it breton where the "upper level" armors have face coverings? That never made any sense to me.

Daraugh

I liked the old styles across the board. The new Redguard styles look like generic elf armor from any old game. Keyword there being old.. kinda reminds me of Lotro's elf armor and that game is eight years old. Dated and bland.

Personally I liked the booby hatch on the Orc armor, gave it a bit of uniqueness. (For the record I'm 35 and female.) I don't use the Orc armor style, because I just don't like Orcs, so I'm less bothered by the Orc changes. Overall, it's a step down for the aesthetics.

dodgehopper_ESO

BlueViolet wrote: »

I also thought the Orc heavy had a flattering neckline for females. Yes, it wasn't protective if you're worried over "realism" but it did look very nice. It was always one of my favourite heavy chest pieces. It wasn't for a "pervy" reason, or whatever anyone might attribute to liking it, ( I'm female in my late 30's ) but it was that it just had a touch of feminine quality about it.
I like most of the other changes, except the change to Redguard light and changes to the medium chest. I thought the original helm looked unique, and fitting, especially for the desert. Now it looks like nearly every other old helm out there
Kind of sad to see it go.

I want to start by saying I think its great what the devs are doing. I really like it when they shoot for plausibility, and move away from some of the unrealistic armors out there.

I think a lot of people esthetically enjoy the cleavage view on armor in quite a few games. The issue for me in all of these instances is that it just defies believability. It would be like wearing a space suit that had a breast-window purely for the purpose of showing off cleavage. The only problem is that showing off cleavage to the harshness of space will get you asphyxiated / frozen / burned / killed. I can remember seeing an old film about Joan of Arc, and she wore a set of armor very similar to what men wore. There weren't even 'breast bumps' in the armor, for good reason actually. Shaping the armor in that fashion actually isn't very beneficial, as it makes it easier to break into the shell. Deflection is a big part of the effectiveness of heavy armor, and you need angled smooth surfaces to slide a weapon away rather than trap force. I'm glad for the change, purely because it just doesn't make sense to go into battle wearing 'heavy armor' and then leave your most vital of organs (the heart) completely exposed. There are other armor sets that reveal the lungs (by baring the midriff).

I'm fine with light 'armor' having exposed skin, but I have problems with the heavy set exposing the heart, lungs, face and neck. Like I stated previously I can understand the desire to add a feminine quality to your ensemble, I'm just not sure heavy armor is the place to do it necessarily.

P.S.: I also think a lot of shoulder pads get out of control in games. For some reason they are all to often the size of a truck fender.

Silvershroud

Hmm, I like the changes to the Orc medium and heavy, and the Redguard heavy. I have no opinion on the Orc light. But the Redguard light and medium? Definitely not an improvement. And why get rid of the mask on the light?

Greeniewolfub17_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think a lot of people esthetically enjoy the cleavage view on armor in quite a few games. The issue for me in all of these instances is that it just defies believability. It would be like wearing a space suit that had a breast-window purely for the purpose of showing off cleavage. The only problem is that showing off cleavage to the harshness of space will get you asphyxiated / frozen / burned / killed. I can remember seeing an old film about Joan of Arc, and she wore a set of armor very similar to what men wore. There weren't even 'breast bumps' in the armor, for good reason actually. Shaping the armor in that fashion actually isn't very beneficial, as it makes it easier to break into the shell. Deflection is a big part of the effectiveness of heavy armor, and you need angled smooth surfaces to slide a weapon away rather than trap force. I'm glad for the change, purely because it just doesn't make sense to go into battle wearing 'heavy armor' and then leave your most vital of organs (the heart) completely exposed. There are other armor sets that reveal the lungs (by baring the midriff).

Problem is that the armor Joan of arc likely wore, DID actually have a more rounded chest. And other women's heavy armors generally either had a much more rounded chest that didn't have separate "breast bumps" as you put it, and those that did. Those that did, often did leave some space either above or below the breasts open.
The chest actually didn't provide as much protection for the heart as you might think. for one thing, very few of the weapons that were carried were designed for slicing. most swords were meant for bashing, and those that could puncture usually had enough force behind them (like crossbow bolts) that they simply shredded the armor. Even most greatswords did not have a sharp edge. Instead they had a blunted edge that more bashed than cut.

subbssb14_ESO

Greeniewolfub17_ESO wrote: »

Problem is that the armor Joan of arc likely wore, DID actually have a more rounded chest. And other women's heavy armors generally either had a much more rounded chest that didn't have separate "breast bumps" as you put it, and those that did. Those that did, often did leave some space either above or below the breasts open.
The chest actually didn't provide as much protection for the heart as you might think. for one thing, very few of the weapons that were carried were designed for puncturing. most swords were meant for bashing, and those that could puncture usually had enough force behind them (like crossbow bolts) that they simply shredded the armor. Even most greatswords did not have a sharp edge. Instead they had a blunted edge that more bashed than cut.

It is clear you are talking out your rear end and have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing you said was correct. Plate armor makes a large difference in protection and your statement about swords not being used for puncturing and greatswords not having a sharp edge are ridiculous. Don't talk about things you don't know.
Weapons don't shred plate armor, you kill someone in plate armor by aiming for the gaps in the plates.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
As for the armor changes... I'm in the minority here but I prefer the old Redgard heavy armor, I liked the elegant curves of the plates and the clean lines. I agree with what others have said that instead of replacing the old armors, just add the new armors as a choice.

Rev Rielle

newtinmpls wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Re redguard light armour Finally, for a desert people to no longer have their facial protection is just ludicrous.

Is it breton where the "upper level" armors have face coverings? That never made any sense to me.

Yes they do, that's right. And I agree with you, especially now it doesn't make sense for the breton to have a face covering whilst the redguards do not.

At the moment I'm honestly wondering whether to bother with the PTS anymore if development are quite simply going to ignore us. They beg for our feedback, and honestly there's been little feedback to date that has been as unanimous as the dislike for the new lighter redguard attire has been. And yet there is next to no response. It is disheartening. They've gone completely against their own lore that they've created, it is completely amateurish.

Hopefully I am wrong and they are working on a tweak to these changes, time will tell.

Greeniewolfub17_ESO

subbssb14_ESO wrote: »

Greeniewolfub17_ESO wrote: »

Problem is that the armor Joan of arc likely wore, DID actually have a more rounded chest. And other women's heavy armors generally either had a much more rounded chest that didn't have separate "breast bumps" as you put it, and those that did. Those that did, often did leave some space either above or below the breasts open.
The chest actually didn't provide as much protection for the heart as you might think. for one thing, very few of the weapons that were carried were designed for puncturing. most swords were meant for bashing, and those that could puncture usually had enough force behind them (like crossbow bolts) that they simply shredded the armor. Even most greatswords did not have a sharp edge. Instead they had a blunted edge that more bashed than cut.

It is clear you are talking out your rear end and have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing you said was correct. Plate armor makes a large difference in protection and your statement about swords not being used for puncturing and greatswords not having a sharp edge are ridiculous. Don't talk about things you don't know.
Weapons don't shred plate armor, you kill someone in plate armor by aiming for the gaps in the plates.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
As for the armor changes... I'm in the minority here but I prefer the old Redgard heavy armor, I liked the elegant curves of the plates and the clean lines. I agree with what others have said that instead of replacing the old armors, just add the new armors as a choice.

Actually, I do know. Seeing as how I specialized in military history and studied this stuff extensively.
The crossbow and the blunted great sword were the direct answer to heavy armor. The crossbow gave the force necessary to the bold to puncture and shred the armor, the greatsword was a duel use weapon. Most had a sharp point at the end for thrusting into gaps in the armor, but the edges of the blade itself were not sharp during the time periods heavy armor was in use. If the edge was sharp two or three strikes against an armor or a shield would ruin the edge making it fairly unusable. The idea was to bash at another guy until he either could no longer defend with his sword and shield or presented a gap or weak point in the armor you could then thrust into with the TIP of the sword. Very occasionally you would have decapitations in combat, but the edge did not need to be sharp to have that happen.
All those movies where they show guys swinging swords and slicing through heavy armor, are fantasy.



Next.

Editing to add, Katanas and certain other Japanese swords are possibly the major exceptions, but then Japanese heavy armor was very different than most of the rest of the world.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Darn, redguard shoulders were the last heavy shoulders that actually looked nice. Big shoulder guards look stupid and impractical, why can't we have armor that actually look like real armor?

ArconSeptim

"POLISH" what a fancy shmency word, does it mean it's from Poland?

Djeriko

I like the new detail on both but the changes specifically to redguard armor can look a little odd. The kneecap portion of the boots don't seem to be on the knee at all and the little strip of metal on the faceplate between the eyes can be done away with. Also why get rid of the pointed metal toe on redguard heavy but keep the one on the orc heavy? The just feels indicative of heavy armor. Keep the pointed metal boot please. Other than that I still plan to stick with my redguard heavy armor. Just make sure the cloth portions don't get that dusty look that messes up the dyed portions again like the current models.

Helluin

Redguard HA chest and shoulders are the ones I prefer.

Redguard MA: boots changed from the first PTS version and I prefer this second version.
MA helmet imho is still not interesting because it seems a sort of Imperial helmet with a cover (it gives me the feeling of being too warm in Alik'r Desert).
I'd prefer a mix amongst Bosmer MA helmet, Breton LA helmet/hood and Redguard old MA helmet, so a sort of reinforced Breton hood in Redguard style.

Greycats

Please don't change the Redguard light armor. The original is so much more detailed than the new style.

Madamova

Good job guys! All armor definitely looks more realistic. I do prefer the old version of Redguard Light Helmet though - looks more practical in the desert conditions then the new version.

Rial

Greeniewolfub17_ESO wrote: »

and yet, in Elder scrolls games they did. Also, in real life women warriors also wore armors that showed cleavage because it distracted many male warriors.

One can't praise orcs for their pragmatic and functional design and then design their armour not accordingly.

If the boob window were on Altmer armour, I would have found it much more believable since Altmer 1. value aesthetics highly and 2. probably have all kinds of enchantments to make up for the lacking protection.


Also, ESO was the first TES game to feature revealing Orc-style armour, so you can't really claim "they did". One could claim, however, that TES orcs always have been green, yet ESO offers only grey skin colour. An oversight in dire need of remedy, I think.

Praseodyme

I don't like the new redguard light "armor".
In my mind, a light "armor" is more clothes than an actual armor. That is exactly the way of the old redguard light "armor". More especially, for female avatars, the old robe added a sort of sexy touch (in its design) that was quite pleasant and also added something we could call "desert mystery".
I think the new version has lost all things which were making it redguard specific.

Maverick827

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Seeing as there is no new content (dungeon, story, etc.) in 1.6, the only thing I had left in this game was playing characters that I think look nice. The change to the Redguard heavy armor ruins that for me. I have unfortunately had to cancel my account over this because, again, this was the only thing keeping me here. I want to have a reason to play this game. I do not want to have to quit.

Please reconsider this change - at least fix the Redguard heavy armor as described below or offer both versions.

adriant1978

How about you bring the old styles back as costumes in the Crown Store? I'm sure you'd make a few bucks off that.

Lord_Draevan

Looks good! Now please change Argonian weapons so they're not sticks with rocks tied to them for Tier 1 and Tier 2 :disagree:

Also, if you could make Argonian greatswords actual swords, not wooden paddles with chunks of metal every few centimeters... that'd be great.


A longer version of this would be nice!


Does this paddle come with a canoe?!?!?

Maverick827

adriant1978 wrote: »

How about you bring the old styles back as costumes in the Crown Store? I'm sure you'd make a few bucks off that.

You can't dye costumes, so that won't solve much.

Just make new motifs and have two versions. Redguard Motif I, Redguard Motif II. This will open things up in the future for you to make alternate Daedric armors or something.

Detector

Old version "redguard light" is cool. New - fail.

dodgehopper_ESO

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Looks good! Now please change Argonian weapons so they're not sticks with rocks tied to them for Tier 1 and Tier 2 :disagree:

Also, if you could make Argonian greatswords actual swords, not wooden paddles with chunks of metal every few centimeters... that'd be great.


A longer version of this would be nice!


Does this paddle come with a canoe?!?!?

Argonians come with native American flair. That greatsword weapon is very reminiscent of a weapon called the Macuahuitl. The edges were made from sharp chips of Obsidian. I agree it is not as advanced as steel sword, but it is actually effective. Maybe the hist is the reason argonians don't advance their weaponry, or maybe it is because spears and daggers are more their thing in the lore.

Lord_Draevan

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Looks good! Now please change Argonian weapons so they're not sticks with rocks tied to them for Tier 1 and Tier 2 :disagree:

Also, if you could make Argonian greatswords actual swords, not wooden paddles with chunks of metal every few centimeters... that'd be great.


A longer version of this would be nice!


Does this paddle come with a canoe?!?!?

Argonians come with native American flair. That greatsword weapon is very reminiscent of a weapon called the Macuahuitl. The edges were made from sharp chips of Obsidian. I agree it is not as advanced as steel sword, but it is actually effective. Maybe the hist is the reason argonians don't advance their weaponry, or maybe it is because spears and daggers are more their thing in the lore.

Well clearly they can forge metal, just look at their other weapons :P
As the Spaniards vs the Aztecs showed us, stone vs metal armor/weapons =metals wins, always.
Plus... paddle. It's a paddle.

FlyAnkle

Please, change the vizor of the Breton hevy helm...the black texture on this vizor there can be see the part of characters face and eyes...its just terrible, its really not a good work...and its spoils such a nice armor.

Rosveen

ArconSeptim wrote: »

"POLISH" what a fancy shmency word, does it mean it's from Poland?

Negative. On behalf of Poland I deny any association with new Redguard light design.

adriant1978 wrote: »

How about you bring the old styles back as costumes in the Crown Store? I'm sure you'd make a few bucks off that.

This would just be insulting to the community. Keep both in the game and let us choose.

Danisheraser

Will you please consider redoing Dunmer also? Especially heavy armor

newtinmpls

Hey ... I like the dunmer heavy armor.

And as for argonians being "like native americans" that's about as helpful as saying "like native eurasians".

That being said, I do like the lower level version of the argonian 2-handed sword. The later version (about 26th level or so) when it starts getting wider at the distal end is kind of disturbing.

Detector

Need 2 rare motifs (new+old) for each race. Don't destroy old style.