@ZOS - please have a look at the duels in Cyrodiil

trimsic_ESO

People are dueling in Cyrodiil almost every day. You just have to ask in the /z where these duels are in place on the map. Having a look at the duels, or participating to these duels would bring a lot of useful information to you, the developpers, to see and analyze what's working as intended and what is not.

For instance:
- About 80 to 90 percent of the players in these duel areas have a magicka build
- No one uses a heavy armor - some did, just to test, but with a light armor and a magicka build the damage shields are more efficient than the protection granted by the heavy armor
- There are a lot of sorcerers, many templars, a few DK and NB - you should try to understand why

Since 1.6 targets the build diversity, having a look at these duels will help you understand why this goal is not reached yet.

Kragorn

So, some classes/builds are superior to others. There's a problem here?

It's PVP, PVPers mostly don't want 'diversity' they want to win and will use whatever cookie-cutter FoTM build is shown to be best .. and no MMO should ever be balanced on 1 v 1, EVER!

Decimus_Rex

Me and my guild have been having...

Kind of a hard time adjusting to 1.6

We were all at work (Postal workers) during mail sorting time and well..

http://youtu.be/Ka8AcYwDCok

c0rp

People dueling on the PTS are the min/maxers who comprise a very small % of the total game population. ESO also does not support dueling.

While what these people are doing is interesting, and their testing is appreciated...by no means does the game need to be changed or balanced based on 1v1 dueling. At least not in the current state that ESO is in.

sabresandiego_ESO

I've done more 1on1 dueling than 99% of people on PTS so I would love to give some feedback.

Believe it or not, the game is actually incredibly well balanced in 1.6, so long as you are min maxing. I have seen every class use competitive builds in dueling, with light, medium, and heavy armor.

Some of the strongest builds are:

Sorcerror: Full magicka and usually with mines or pets

Nightblade: Heavy or medium armor and stamina, or full magicka caster

Templar: Full stamina biting jabs and sunshield or magicka caster

DK: Full stamina dot build with 2h

These are the strongest builds ive seen in high level play. Very well balanced when its min max class vs min max class. Hybrids stand no chance against these builds however.

Alphashado

Duels were once again suggested in the latest interview with Paul Sage, but they were presented as a request for "instanced duels". I'm not even sure what "Instanced duels" would mean unless you and the person you were dueling got whisked away to some private instance.

Pretty sure that what people want is a /select player/request duel option. And an option to disable this feature for those that don't want to be bothered with duel request spams.

If there were a normal dueling system in the game like most other AAA MMOs, they wouldn't have to visit staged contests in Cyrodiil in order to collect data and evaluate builds.

Snit

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Alphashado

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

trimsic_ESO

The goal is to have a better game, where "build diversity" means something. Having a look at the duels helps in that domain.

I've talked to people who have tested many different builds on the PTS, and their conclusion is that 1.6, while a bit more balanced, has more or less the same issues as before: magicka builds are better than stamina builds, and light armor with damage shields mitigate more than heavy armor.

If this is not fixed, they will stop playing ESO. 1.6 is for them the last chance for a game that offers a real build diversity.

trimsic_ESO

Kragorn wrote: »

So, some classes/builds are superior to others. There's a problem here?

It's PVP, PVPers mostly don't want 'diversity' they want to win and will use whatever cookie-cutter FoTM build is shown to be best .. and no MMO should ever be balanced on 1 v 1, EVER!

This is why so many MMO have failed, I mean with this reasoning. This is a paradigm where you say to a specific class: you'd better be grouped, because otherwise you suck. In ESO, this means that if you don't have a magicka build, you suck. This is not acceptable, and in my opinion compromizes the future of the game.

Joy_Division

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

People are dueling in Cyrodiil almost every day. You just have to ask in the /z where these duels are in place on the map. Having a look at the duels, or participating to these duels would bring a lot of useful information to you, the developpers, to see and analyze what's working as intended and what is not.

For instance:
- About 80 to 90 percent of the players in these duel areas have a magicka build
- No one uses a heavy armor - some did, just to test, but with a light armor and a magicka build the damage shields are more efficient than the protection granted by the heavy armor
- There are a lot of sorcerers, many templars, a few DK and NB - you should try to understand why

Since 1.6 targets the build diversity, having a look at these duels will help you understand why this goal is not reached yet.

To duel effectively, it requires specific builds using specific tactics that have almost zero to do with the PvE component of the game and also something fundamentally different from the AvAvA environment Cyrodiil is based around. This is why some people did and do not want ZoS to implement official dueling: because it will generate a huge amount of feedback that is not applicable to much of the game and their original intention for PvP. (Edit: I happen to not be one of them, I would prefer there to be an arena option for up to 12x12 pvp for those who enjoy this...it's just a perspective that is out there and has been voiced).

Burst offense and shields are *very* strong in duels and thus I am not surprised to see so many in 1.6 testing since sorcs in 1.5, where they are so weak competitive raid guilds don't want them, already have decent burst and good shields. Damage shields are strong - as they are in 1.5 - because there is only one opponent to worry about. It is more forgiving to dump everything into the magicka pool because those elements on AvAvA that reward stat diversification: ambushes, getting hit with siege, evading multiple attackers, assaulting fortified positions, etc., don't exist in the 1.6 PTS.

Fatalyis

I've been rolling a 5 heavy / 2 light NB Magicka caster build as of late, and I've been pretty successful in the duels I've done. My problem is that the template Heavy Armor isn't for a Magicka build.....I would be much better off with a set of Seducers or Magnus HA.

The duels have been a lot of fun and I've seen some interesting things. Melee Sorcs (like Saber) are giving me far more trouble than ranged Sorcs....and the Biting Jabs Templars are pretty insane to deal with.

I'm loving how things have worked out so far....it's been pretty damn fun.

Snit

Joy_Division wrote: »

To duel effectively, it requires specific builds using specific tactics that have almost zero to do with the PvE component of the game and also something fundamentally different from the AvAvA environment Cyrodiil is based around. This is why some people did and do not want ZoS to implement official dueling: because it will generate a huge amount of feedback that is not applicable to much of the game

Well said. Dueling does have the advantage of showing what is possible for min-maxxed builds, but that does not mean it translates directly to... anything that isn't dueling. And most things in TESO are not dueling.

Kypho

No ballance= 1 fotm class 1 suckyclass and other between. 1 i win build, and many other useless crap. And thats just because some ppl said that a game should not be ballanced.... LoL those people cant think at all.

Kypho

Snit wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

To duel effectively, it requires specific builds using specific tactics that have almost zero to do with the PvE component of the game and also something fundamentally different from the AvAvA environment Cyrodiil is based around. This is why some people did and do not want ZoS to implement official dueling: because it will generate a huge amount of feedback that is not applicable to much of the game

Well said. Dueling does have the advantage of showing what is possible for min-maxxed builds, but that does not mean it translates directly to... anything that isn't dueling. And most things in TESO are not dueling.

You dont know what you are talking. If you know what you talking, then its just sad how low you guys are. Think again about what you have said. Think in big. Like trials. Or team vs team. Even a group/guild, who doesnt take things in game too serious will just kick/ignore/LoL on you when you arent using max build. Only if you are a friend and doesnt want to send you to the hell. Why are builds for trials? Why? Because they work. If you dont use it, you suck.

I hope i dont need to explain. Simple: No ballance=fail. Why do you play an idiot class/build when you can use an OP class/build? Why are the sucky classes/builds in game at all? Remove all class, and let one, what all can use. Boring? Most ppl will leave because they want to play a class what sux, but .... it sux and get bored and leave game.
The ppl who like the sucky classes and builds will be RP ers, and retarde.... ummm well.... no point in that.

Xeniph

I'll put this out there.

Without the feedback of these duelers, we would not know things like..

Damage Shields prevent every offensive "Proc" used on them. As well as the Ultimate generation buff. And a myriad of other wonky stuff.

I didn't read anything in the OP that suggests he was asking for dueling, or even a balance pass using exclusively such data.

These duels SHOULD be looked at and studied, not for any kind of 1v1 balance, but more for the new "Meta" trends and whether stuff is working as intended. Most of which can't be tested with mobs.

Personally I would really like to NOT see such a huge population of one class using the same build, due to it being so much more effective than others, as we have in the past to current live game.

I believe that's all he was asking for.

Kypho

And Justice system. lets say. You are NB what is the sucky class, you are an awesome player. you steal etc. and there comes a shield stacker sorc, or awesome jablar and kick your ass whenever you want to do what you want to do. It would be fun right? Ohh wait. you can play jablar and lolcerer.... lets delete NB then.
Your thinking flawed. If you people who dont want ballance, you were a machine, you would get constant BSOD.

Darlgon

ZoS. Please dont go anywhere near dueling.

c0rp wrote: »

ESO also does not support dueling.

This is why. Players might view it as an endorsement of a one on one gameplay that simply does not exist in game.

Dracane

It is very good as it is now. Full Magicka is not the way to go and heavy armor is very good. But people in duels want to kill their enemies fast and light and medium armor are meant to boost damage a bit (medium armor does not only boost it a bit, actually a lot)

So everything works as intended or not ? 1v1 is a totally different realm as AvA or PvE. The game is so good right now, it feels so much better. I can't see a reason to make big changes.

There are so overmighty hybrid builds. The caster NB, which uses cloak to fade and use it to cast spells or to evade damage and then strike with melee attacks like a train is soooo strong and it's a hybrid. Get creative people -.- at least when 1.6 goes online, there will be more people trying to figure out build and everything will be fine.

kieso

I watched some duels in cyro from a popular streamer named erlexx and what I saw seemed un balanced; damage was way to high in general and it looks like 2H is the new way to go.

TheBull

Alphashado wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

Snit

TheBull wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

I love that you not only dismissed the concerns, but added a "LOL." If you want to complete the "I couldn't care less about what others think" trifecta, you should consider editing in a 'carebear' comment.

You probably just forgot

TheBull

Snit wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

I love that you not only dismissed the concerns, but added a "LOL." If you want to complete the "I couldn't care less about what others think" trifecta, you should consider editing in a 'carebear' comment.

You probably just forgot

It was a real question. I never understood the point of view of those like who I quoted.

trimsic_ESO

Xeniph wrote: »

I'll put this out there.

Without the feedback of these duelers, we would not know things like..

Damage Shields prevent every offensive "Proc" used on them. As well as the Ultimate generation buff. And a myriad of other wonky stuff.

I didn't read anything in the OP that suggests he was asking for dueling, or even a balance pass using exclusively such data.

These duels SHOULD be looked at and studied, not for any kind of 1v1 balance, but more for the new "Meta" trends and whether stuff is working as intended. Most of which can't be tested with mobs.

Personally I would really like to NOT see such a huge population of one class using the same build, due to it being so much more effective than others, as we have in the past to current live game.

I believe that's all he was asking for.

Thanks, this is indeed exactly what I'm asking for. ZOS should have a look to how people build their templates and how they play in these duels in order to analyze what's working as intended, and what's not.

The goal is to have a good meta game that promotes build diversity.

Lied

Kragorn wrote: »

.. and no MMO should ever be balanced on 1 v 1, EVER!

No MMO should be balanced for 1v1 over group play; that doesn't mean that no attempt at 1v1 balance should be made, it just means that you shouldn't sacrifice group balance to achieve it.

Saying it doesn't matter at all is just a cop out for spoiled fotm players or lazy developers.

Alphashado

TheBull wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

I love that you not only dismissed the concerns, but added a "LOL." If you want to complete the "I couldn't care less about what others think" trifecta, you should consider editing in a 'carebear' comment.

You probably just forgot

It was a real question. I never understood the point of view of those like who I quoted.

My "point of view" is from someone that enjoys both PvP and PvE equally as a matter of fact.

Another fact is that 90% of the nerfs you see in any MMO (including ESO) are a direct result of people crying about OP FOTM skills in PvP. Therefore the PvP crowd is directly responsible for having a direct effect on 100% of the game.

TheBull wrote: »

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

In many cases, the difference between 10 mins and 11 mins is the difference between success and failure. If a boss has an enrage timer and wipes the entire group because the group didn't have enough dps using old builds that were nerfed because of PvP concerns, then THAT is why it matters.

Can they find new builds to use? Probably. But that isn't the point. The point is that the reason they had to rebuild their character to begin with is because they were nerfed due to PvP, and THAT is why it matters.

When you start asking for nerfs, you HAVE to consider how that change would effect the entire game, not just PvP. Suggesting that those changes have little effect on the PvE crowd can easily be perceived as selfish and narrow minded.

TheBull

Alphashado wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The high-level game consists of many activities:

- Trials
- Vet Dungeons
- Solo Grinding
- Mass PvP
- Small Group PvP
- One vs One Duels in PvP

These all emphasize different strengths and require different builds to optimize. Balancing the game around just that last one, which is probably the least popular among all players, is probably the worst way to do it.

Agreed. PvE is relentlessly nerfed based on PvP already.

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

I love that you not only dismissed the concerns, but added a "LOL." If you want to complete the "I couldn't care less about what others think" trifecta, you should consider editing in a 'carebear' comment.

You probably just forgot

It was a real question. I never understood the point of view of those like who I quoted.

My "point of view" is from someone that enjoys both PvP and PvE equally as a matter of fact.

Another fact is that 90% of the nerfs you see in any MMO (including ESO) are a direct result of people crying about OP FOTM skills in PvP. Therefore the PvP crowd is directly responsible for having a direct effect on 100% of the game.

TheBull wrote: »

No agreeing, but what if it was? does it matter? You kill the bosses in 11 mins instead of 10? lol

In many cases, the difference between 10 mins and 11 mins is the difference between success and failure. If a boss has an enrage timer and wipes the entire group because the group didn't have enough dps using old builds that were nerfed because of PvP concerns, then THAT is why it matters.

Can they find new builds to use? Probably. But that isn't the point. The point is that the reason they had to rebuild their character to begin with is because they were nerfed due to PvP, and THAT is why it matters.

When you start asking for nerfs, you HAVE to consider how that change would effect the entire game, not just PvP. Suggesting that those changes have little effect on the PvE crowd can easily be perceived as selfish and narrow minded.

I was a raider a few years back. World ranking guild with a world ranking toon. I specifically said bosses as in ESO trials... ESO doesn't have exactly the most challenging bleeding edge pve content. There are huge tolerances for DPS checks. I don't believe there have been any nerfs in ESO that have made any pve content unbeatable. This is my point.

While pve game play may go relatively unchanged a tweak to an ability may go a long way in improving pvp. You may call that "narrow minded". I would have to disagree.

sorry for the derail...

trimsic_ESO

Let's be clear. No one is crying for a nerf in this thread. But people are in a hope for a balanced game and build diversity. A game where a tank can wear a heavy armor, build a viable template and have fun. A game where a melee DPS can wear a medium armor, build a viable template and have fun.

In short, a game where people can play the role they like in a viable way. Nothing less, and nothing more.

Yesterday, I've dueled for about 3 or 4 hours, and most of the people I saw were playing a magicka build. This does not mean that I'm in a hope for a huge nerf of the light armor or in a hope for a huge nerf of the magicka builds in general. But this does mean that I'm in a hope for a game where people can have fun when playing something different. And that would be a great change since 2014/4/4.

Fatalyis

kieso wrote: »

I watched some duels in cyro from a popular streamer named erlexx and what I saw seemed un balanced; damage was way to high in general and it looks like 2H is the new way to go.

Erlexx is a good guy...was in Entropy Rising with him for a bit. 2H is the way to go at the moment for two reasons: Wrecking Blow hits like a freight train and Momentum applies a damage buff that applies to ALL weapon damage, not just 2H.

I would imagine (hopefully) that ZOS will get it squared away....I personally don't think Momentum is supposed to work as it currently does in 1.6.1.

As for damage in general, it is somewhat crazy because you've got a lot of people going glass cannon because they're dueling in a 1v1 environment. I'm currently running a caster NB with 35k magicka and only 19k health....it works good for me in 1v1 duels (aimed at testing abilities) but I'd not be caught dead running that same build in AvAvA.

Vordae

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

People are dueling in Cyrodiil almost every day. You just have to ask in the /z where these duels are in place on the map. Having a look at the duels, or participating to these duels would bring a lot of useful information to you, the developpers, to see and analyze what's working as intended and what is not.

For instance:
- About 80 to 90 percent of the players in these duel areas have a magicka build
- No one uses a heavy armor - some did, just to test, but with a light armor and a magicka build the damage shields are more efficient than the protection granted by the heavy armor
- There are a lot of sorcerers, many templars, a few DK and NB - you should try to understand why

Since 1.6 targets the build diversity, having a look at these duels will help you understand why this goal is not reached yet.

Duels is not how real Cyrodiil pvp takes place. All the dueling data that's getting collected really means very little. There are very few situations once real pvp starts were you get a 1v1 fight. I have no problem with people creating builds for 1v1 fights or 2v1 fights that are really effective because those builds die just like very one else when its 10 vs 10 or 100 vs 100. What would really help Zos if if people would stop dueling and go out and really pvp. Get in big fights and see how all the new changes really work. Can that 1v1 build that is unkillable tank 20+ people and not die. Cause then we would have a problem. I don't see a problem if 1v1 someone can't be killed cause they made a build to counter magicka and the 1 person they are fighting is using a magicka build. IMO all the people dueling are actually hurting how testing is going and providing lots of information based on situations that very rarely ever happen and then demanding changes based on those situations.

What Zos should really do is go in to Cyrodiil and make an announcement for everyone to stop dueling or they will be kicked from Cyrodiil. Tell people to start really doing pvp so they can get valid data and not this garbage data.

Fatalyis

Vordae wrote: »

Duels is not how real Cyrodiil pvp takes place. All the dueling data that's getting collected really means very little. There are very few situations once real pvp starts were you get a 1v1 fight. I have no problem with people creating builds for 1v1 fights or 2v1 fights that are really effective because those builds die just like very one else when its 10 vs 10 or 100 vs 100. What would really help Zos if if people would stop dueling and go out and really pvp. Get in big fights and see how all the new changes really work. Can that 1v1 build that is unkillable tank 20+ people and not die. Cause then we would have a problem. I don't see a problem if 1v1 someone can't be killed cause they made a build to counter magicka and the 1 person they are fighting is using a magicka build. IMO all the people dueling are actually hurting how testing is going and providing lots of information based on situations that very rarely ever happen and then demanding changes based on those situations.

What Zos should really do is go in to Cyrodiil and make an announcement for everyone to stop dueling or they will be kicked from Cyrodiil. Tell people to start really doing pvp so they can get valid data and not this garbage data.

You are correct, that isn't how PvP in Cyrodiil takes place....but by dueling we're able to test abilities on the small scale and find the things that work and don't work. For instance, duelers found that Siphoning Strikes (and it's morphs) do not work against any type of shield. We don't know if that is working as intended or not...we've never been given an answer...but I'm glad someone found it out. That isn't something I think would be picked up in a huge battle.

I don't agree with the whining and complaining that (insert class here) beat me 1v1 and they're OP. I've gotten wrecked by a few Templars....all it took was me rearranging a few abilities and playing smart and I was able to beat them.

I'd like to see some large scale fighting on the PTS....and hopefully we can get something like that soon...but I disagree that those of us who are dueling to test abilities out are actually hurting the testing.