A thought on Healers for 1.6 and beyond

DeLindsay

@Murmeltier I totally agree that Templar is the "standard" for Healers in ESO and have no issue with that. I'm happy for them to stay the go-to Healer in many people's minds. As a VR14 NB who's MS is Healing and Tanking I can say 100% positively that I can Main Heal anything in ESO up to AA/HR/DSA as I haven't done SO yet. I do however know that ALL content in ESO has been Healed and Tanked by all 4 Classes so it's not an issue of whether it can or should be done, it's already being done.

Once again we are not asking ZoS to erase Templars from the game and it's perfectly reasonable for non-Templars to be further in line Healing wise to Templars. ZoS has even talked about this before, that they are unhappy with the way Resto Staff tree is. There is no reason to even think that further bolstering non-Templars to heal uniquely is going to somehow erode the Class system as we know it, it would actually improve it.

Murmeltier

DeLindsay wrote: »

@Murmeltier I totally agree that Templar is the "standard" for Healers in ESO and have no issue with that. I'm happy for them to stay the go-to Healer in many people's minds. As a VR14 NB who's MS is Healing and Tanking I can say 100% positively that I can Main Heal anything in ESO up to AA/HR/DSA as I haven't done SO yet. I do however know that ALL content in ESO has been Healed and Tanked by all 4 Classes so it's not an issue of whether it can or should be done, it's already being done.

Once again we are not asking ZoS to erase Templars from the game and it's perfectly reasonable for non-Templars to be further in line Healing wise to Templars. ZoS has even talked about this before, that they are unhappy with the way Resto Staff tree is. There is no reason to even think that further bolstering non-Templars to heal uniquely is going to somehow erode the Class system as we know it, it would actually improve it.

So it isnt really an Issue it can be done with a very good Group, it is an Issue that no one wants to do it because it works very bad. That you have seen this or done this by yourself isnt the Rule, it is the Exception for Healing.

Interesting is, that you say you can heal the whole Dungeons but want more Special Skills or Options Class-Based, for more Healing.

And again, i respect the Idea to have different Lines of Healing Ingame, like in RIFT or WoW. But here the System starts at another Base. If you want to change this afterwards you will rip off the whole System.

Ok, i tried to explain why i dont like this Idea but i respect other Line of Sights. At the End we will see what Zenimax does, i hope it is the right Thing.

helediron

Funneling nightblades have a good role as main DD/offhealer hybrids. I think the NB suggestion is good. I don't dare to comment NBs being main healers. I tried it early in the game and failed. But 1.6 might change that...

Yesterday i was farming Spindleclutch helmet with guildies, and the gargoyle is a DPS race. It was relaxed and fun and we sometimes swapped roles. So i tried healing, and we checked CLS numbers after each fight. My best "healer" numbers were 800 DPS plus 750 HPS, worst 500 plus 500. Laughable numbers for templar main healer but okay for such hybrid. Another good example is SO downstairs, which is another DPS race, and doesn't really need pure healer.

And of course, if main healer dies, it's good to have a lousy backup. It costs only one slot. In trials and dungeons i anyway have healing springs to build up Veil. Occasionally it could be even used for it's original purpose

Digiman

It's play as you like, but most players will role a class based on their class role.

DK are the best tanking class, so its obvious why their would be a drought in healing. Honestly I really don't see healing being prominent unless you are going for a magicka based character, and unfortunately the damage of magicka pales in comparison to stamina.

andrantos

I love the overall flexibility of the class system. There is always room for improvement and balance is just one of those things that will always be problematic in any system.

I don't think we are quite there yet, but I hope as things settle in regards to the champion point system, console releases, etc... that Zenimax has set themselves up for continued improvements to balance.

However, with that said, I don't mind the idea that certain classes fall into certain roles easier than others. I don't think each class should inherently be able to fill each role equally. However, I do think careful selection of weapons, gear, abilities, passives, stat, etc.... should result in each class being able to be reasonably capable at any role - just some classes would require a bit more thought and tweaking to get there.

The fact is, Templars get an entire skill line that is almost solely devoted to healing. That alone should make the class a top choice for anyone wishing to play a healer. Granted, if the system was perfect, the other classes should make capable healers - they just have to work harder at it

Seraphyel

Digiman wrote: »

It's play as you like, but most players will role a class based on their class role.

And that's the issue. There shouldn't be a class role! Templar = Healer, DK = Tank --> wrong!

andrantos

Seraphyel wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

It's play as you like, but most players will role a class based on their class role.

And that's the issue. There shouldn't be a class role! Templar = Healer, DK = Tank --> wrong!

Part of the problem is that at character creation, players are offered 4 classes. Users are accustomed to the concept of a class being synonymous with a role or set of roles.

To make it worse, Zenimax decided to give us 4 classes that each imply a specific fantasy archetype which in turn implies a specific MMO role (Templar = Healer, Dragon Knight = Tank, Nightblade = Melee DPS, Sorcerer = Ranged DPS).

However, this couldn't be further from the truth. Each class can theoretically fulfill each role (though some classes have an easier time at certain roles than others). The reality is that the classes truly, simply provide a unique set of flavorful (yet useful) skills.

Unfortunately, to a new player, I have always felt the class selection piece is a bit misleading. Someone who picks Sorcerer because it sounds like the closest to a "mage" or a "wizard" may eventually realize that most of the abilities that fit his/her playstyle are actually Nightblade skills.

When I first created my character, I had an idea how the class and skill systems worked. I wanted to recreate my favorite class - the bard. I ended up going with Sorcerer simply because it provided a good selection of crowd control, had a couple aoe/group support type abilities and had other bits of flavor that feel within my concept of a bard. Abilities from other skill lines available would also help add things like group support and utility typically afforded by bards in other games.

Darkintellect

DeLindsay wrote: »

davedwildebeast wrote: »

in 1.6 with people maxing magicka to get the strongest DPS/HPS, magicka management will be less of an issue.

I think we will see a distinct change in this behavior once 1.6 actually hits Live. Those Players who are spamming Magicka/Stamina while dropping nothing in Health only have 14-16K Health in PvE and will be 1-shot by many Boss abilities in Vet Dungeons and Trials. Right now we're seeing that 18-23K is the minimum Health needed to survive such abilities like Bogdan's Ground Slam in Vet EH which hits on PTS for 18K. IIRC, the Atronach in AA on PTS is hitting for 21K, but I could be wrong.

My Healing build for example on PTS (same gear/attributes as Live) when NA had access was ~24K Magicka and ~21K Health, quite reasonable for both. That's with 5pc Mara, 4pc Healer's Habit and 2pc EG set, all Legendary except Jewelry. I doubt I will have to tweak that build much to reflect specific Boss abilities. Time will tell ofc, but hopefully @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno will happen by this thread (I don't know if either of them handle these type of suggestions) and we can get even a 'maybe' out of them. Hell I'd settle for an 'interesting' lol.

I got your PM and I've been busy but I'll explain my build type and why going spell power build is overall less effective. I'm also posting here so other Nightblades can get an idea as to how this works.

Currently, healing bonus and Damage bonus from spell power is 1.2% increase per 64 point Spell Power Enchant. With a comparable 192 point spell power, you gain 3.2%. I've bug reported and feedbacked the issue as I feel it's grossly under-matched when compared to Magicka Reduction.

When you factor in Siphons, you'll see a marginal increase over going full healers habit due to spell power applying to the damage done and the healing thereof with a 25% effectiveness. However, Resto Staff heals and heals from the two ultimates, Refreshing Path, etc will be reduced.

Currently I'm using Twice Born stuff (Shadow/Ritual), as well as Healers Habbit, both 5 piece sets. This way you gain some magicka, only lose one set of the 179 spell power and the cost of resto staff abilities aren't high enough to warrant 12% reduction in 1.6.

You gain about 15.625% healing as well as 15.25% additional critical healing and damage on top of that.. If you're at 44+% crit, it's the best viable choice of Mundus stone effects.

The 15.625% values are from...
Healers Habit = 8%
Ritual with full Divine = 52.5% (7.5*7) value of 5% from Ritual which equals 7.625%
Healers Habit and Ritual combines makes 15.625%

Shadow Mundus Stone gives 10% critical damage. With 52.5% it gives 15.25% critical damage which stacks with the 10% from Passive (which only applies to base value of 50% thus giving you 5%). This means you'll have a 70.25% critical damage bonus -- a 20.25% increase.


Then by using this bar series.

First Bar

• Merciless Resolve (8% berserker and the 10% additional crit damage from Assassination passive)

• Structured Entropy (20% spell damage bonus and 20% additional damage on next attack)

• Shadowy Disguise

• Funnel Health

• Inner Light

• [ulti]Soul Harvest

Second Bar

• Funnel Health

• Rapid Regeneration

• Healing Ward

• Reaper's Mark (On this bar to maintain 10% addtional crit bonus damage value)

• Inner Light

• [ulti]Soul Siphon (Can heal group nearly 30k in 4 seconds, good for burst heal especially since in 1.6 150 ulti comes back ridiculously fast due to healing a group using attacks)

Rotation as follows...

1. From bar 2, Reapers Mark the target.
2. From bar 1, Merciless Resolve for 8% Berserk
3. Structured Entropy target for 20% spell damage bonus
4. Shadowy Disguise for guaranteed full critical hit (does more than just allowing a normal crit without Shadowy)
5. Use Health Funnel on Target until group has health funnel [2 casts] (Soul Harvest Slotted can boost this by 20% of you use it properly)
6. Switch to Bar 2
7. Cast Rapid Regen twice
8. Continue using Heal Funnel refresh for dps with RR refresh and Healing Ward when required.

This allows me to heal for more than a Templar, not just come within lines. However it's tricky until you get the hang of it but it's by no means easy. The skill involved I feel is better than the inane use of BoL which relies more on the reactionary speed of the Templar instead of the continual boosts from a quick succession heal system of a Nightblade.

Groups are never below 95% health unless a huge AE hits them.

I'll be making some modifications as I see fit including that my health is now 21K as opposed to the pic which dropped my healing numbers by 4.35%

If a player drops, use Healing Ward. If the group takes a hard AE, use Soul Siphon which will push them to full health in 4 seconds (not counting the insane amount of healing over time they're receiving). That is, if they have 30k hp though. If they're at 21k, Soul Siphon is likely to push them from 5% to max health in 1.8 seconds when coupled with a tick of RR and HF.



P.S. - the pic is me trying a different set and skillset. This is without Twice born and attempting a pure spell power build. Results were still good.

Champion Points spent were in...

• Thief - 23 points in Magicka Cost Reduction
• Warrior - 24 points in Damage Shield Increase
• Mage - 23 points in Healing Initiated

DeLindsay

@Darkintellect that's a VERY interesting build. I can certainly see why it would be dodgy until you get used to it, but very impressive build out. I've already started tweaking my gear for 1.6 as I'm a Vampire and ZoS decided to say F'U to Vamps by dropping our Legendary Glyph to a whopping 3.4% Fire Resistance from the 28% it is on Live. I'm having to make some concessions to deal with the added Fire dmg I take in 1.6 but it'll only effect my Mundus by 0.6% so no big deal really. I will build out a set like you have to test it out for myself to see if I can hack it, but if I can and even roughly based on your Funnel Health numbers I see it being VERY strong indeed. Thank you for the info.

Darkintellect

DeLindsay wrote: »

@Darkintellect that's a VERY interesting build. I can certainly see why it would be dodgy until you get used to it, but very impressive build out. I've already started tweaking my gear for 1.6 as I'm a Vampire and ZoS decided to say F'U to Vamps by dropping our Legendary Glyph to a whopping 3.4% Fire Resistance from the 28% it is on Live. I'm having to make some concessions to deal with the added Fire dmg I take in 1.6 but it'll only effect my Mundus by 0.6% so no big deal really. I will build out a set like you have to test it out for myself to see if I can hack it, but if I can and even roughly based on your Funnel Health numbers I see it being VERY strong indeed. Thank you for the info.

Average rate on Health Funnel are 2800-3500 non crit and 5k-6500 crit and with around 50% crit, numbers are on average 3900-5k. The numbers you see in the pic are with the 20% from Soul Harvest, however, it's a weaker build due to testing spell damage numbers and the lack of secondary mundus stone effect and the attribution of Merciless etc.

Let me know how you do and if you need help on concepts.

Another thing you should look into is the Undaunted 2 item set. The totem is almost always up for us since @ 2% chance, with continual regens on 4 people, it would always be up. However, you'd lose Healers Habit 5 and 4 piece bonus.

A lot of stuff to figure out, but the good news is, we are viable as good healers with so many different ways to do so. It's what makes this class fun.

eserras7b16_ESO

Don't know for sure but, sorcerer looks beast with his Magicka management. Now that the shield ability from the restoration staff is good, you just need to get the Eyes of Mara set (12% reduced cost from Restoration staff abilities) and you'll be able to spam heals all the way and the shield to save people asses. Shielding will replace Breath of life.

Darkintellect

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Don't know for sure but, sorcerer looks beast with his Magicka management. Now that the shield ability from the restoration staff is good, you just need to get the Eyes of Mara set (12% reduced cost from Restoration staff abilities) and you'll be able to spam heals all the way and the shield to save people asses. Shielding will replace Breath of life.

Shielding in that circumstance is not overly efficient or helpful since it's set to the target with the Lowest health remaining, or if everyone has full health, hits the target with the lowest total health.

On it's own, the coefficient is poor and it's far better to spam Blessing of Restoration or Illustrious Healing which hit not only multiple targets, but does far more than any variant of the Wards.

Ward still is and will likely remain an emergency button for low health allies since you want to utilize as much of that additional 300% as you can.

Gyudan

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Don't know for sure but, sorcerer looks beast with his Magicka management. Now that the shield ability from the restoration staff is good, you just need to get the Eyes of Mara set (12% reduced cost from Restoration staff abilities) and you'll be able to spam heals all the way and the shield to save people asses. Shielding will replace Breath of life.

I disagree. Here's a list of class passives. The ones affecting healing are in red.

Sorcerers

Increases Magicka Recovery by 10%.
Reduces ability Magicka and Stamina costs by 5%.
Increases player's Health Recovery by 20% with a Daedric Summoning ability slotted.
Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 15%.

Templars

Reduces Magicka, Stamina and Ultimate ability costs by 4%.
While Gaining Ultimate: Grants you 2 additional Ultimate
Increases the damage bonus for your Critical Strikes by (10)% and your damage against blocking targets by (10)%
Increases Block amount vs melee attacks by 15%
Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by (2000)
Increases resurrection speed by 20%
Affected allies resurrect with 100% more Health
50% chance to gain a soul gem upon successful resurrect

Nightblades

Increases Critical Strike rating by 2519 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Increases bonus Critical Strike damage by 10%.
A successful critical hit gives nearby Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 629 for 20 seconds.
Increases Stamina Regeneration by 30%.
Increases Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
After drinking a potion you gain 12 Ultimate.
Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.

Dragonknights

Increases the damage of flame abilities' burning effect by 66%.
Increases the damage of flame-based area of effect abilities by 6%.
Block an additional 10% damage
Increases Spell Resistance by (2500)
Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is activated.
Increases Health Recovery by 4% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
When activating an Ultimate ability:
Restores Health, Magicka and Stamina
Restore amount increased by 70% of the Ultimate's cost

I would say that the current class rankings for a healing role are:
Templar > Nightblade >> Sorcerer >> Dragonknight

Details:

• Templars will be less effective than in 1.5 since their +8% healing doesn't affect resto staff abilities anymore. They still have access to the only instant single target heal in the game (breath of life), that will still make them the most valuable healing class for dungeons/arena and situations where larger groups are spread. Cleansing ritual and remembrance are also very strong for specific situations. Their ability to resurrect people much better than anyone else is also very useful when teammates get insta-killed.
• Nightblades have extremely good passives buffing heals by a large amount. The ability to sustain magicka use over time will greatly improve as players get access to more and more champion points and they can always toggle Siphoning attacks to regain magicka quickly.
• Sorcerers have the best magicka sustain but their heals are much weaker than nightblade's. They also don't have any class ability granting heals to other players and have to rely solely on the restoration staff tree.
• Dragonknights don't have any ability or passive to make them heal better.

Question:
Does the Templar's and Nightblade's bonus to Critical damage also affect critical heals? I wonder if it works like the Shadow mundus.

DeLindsay

Gyudan wrote: »

Question:
Does the Templar's and Nightblade's bonus to Critical damage also affect critical heals? I wonder if it works like the Shadow mundus.

For NB yes, it effects our Healing Crit ceiling and yes it works with The Shadow.

Seraphyel

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

[*]Dragonknights don't have any ability or passive to make them heal better.[/list]

That's wrong. Igneous Shield buffs the healing for 30%, that's incredibly good.

Sorcerers tend to be the worst healers right now.

Spottswoode

Seraphyel wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

[*]Dragonknights don't have any ability or passive to make them heal better.[/list]

That's wrong. Igneous Shield buffs the healing for 30%, that's incredibly good.

Sorcerers tend to be the worst healers right now.

Sorcs have excellent resource management but don't really have anything special with their healing. Their class skills don't give much to other players either. However, in an all out HPS fight, Sorcs would still win most of the time.

Raw HPS is HEAVILY overrated though. Where DK's do shine very well on healing is their party damage shielding and damage reduction. Why heal inordinate amounts of damage when you can just prevent it?



On that point, I don't use Breath of Life at all outside of specific dungeon bosses. In trials, I'll never use it once.

Darkintellect wrote: »

Shielding in that circumstance is not overly efficient or helpful since it's set to the target with the Lowest health remaining, or if everyone has full health, hits the target with the lowest total health.

On it's own, the coefficient is poor and it's far better to spam Blessing of Restoration or Illustrious Healing which hit not only multiple targets, but does far more than any variant of the Wards.

Ward still is and will likely remain an emergency button for low health allies since you want to utilize as much of that additional 300% as you can.

All true. But all things considered, Ward Ally is a much better choice for emergencies than Breath of Life. Main reason being that it blocks damage. Breath of Life has very high crit heals, but Ward allows me to heal over the shield and allows the affected player to take quite a bit more damage.

Darkintellect

Spottswoode wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

[*]Dragonknights don't have any ability or passive to make them heal better.[/list]

That's wrong. Igneous Shield buffs the healing for 30%, that's incredibly good.

Sorcerers tend to be the worst healers right now.

Sorcs have excellent resource management but don't really have anything special with their healing. Their class skills don't give much to other players either. However, in an all out HPS fight, Sorcs would still win most of the time.

Raw HPS is HEAVILY overrated though. Where DK's do shine very well on healing is their party damage shielding and damage reduction. Why heal inordinate amounts of damage when you can just prevent it?



On that point, I don't use Breath of Life at all outside of specific dungeon bosses. In trials, I'll never use it once.

Darkintellect wrote: »

Shielding in that circumstance is not overly efficient or helpful since it's set to the target with the Lowest health remaining, or if everyone has full health, hits the target with the lowest total health.

On it's own, the coefficient is poor and it's far better to spam Blessing of Restoration or Illustrious Healing which hit not only multiple targets, but does far more than any variant of the Wards.

Ward still is and will likely remain an emergency button for low health allies since you want to utilize as much of that additional 300% as you can.

All true. But all things considered, Ward Ally is a much better choice for emergencies than Breath of Life. Main reason being that it blocks damage. Breath of Life has very high crit heals, but Ward allows me to heal over the shield and allows the affected player to take quite a bit more damage.

I was talking about Resto Staff Blessing of Restoration. I play a Nightblade so currently I do use wards (Healing ward though for the larger shield, initial heal and heal when it wears off, I don't want a shield on myself too when I'm usually not taking damage).

For me, I parse around 5k HPS on PTS currently going on with Health Funnel and Rapid Regen so ward basically pauses damage and allows that 2-3 seconds for the ticks which are continually happening to heal 15k+ damage.

So I see where you're coming from. I was just remarking to the notion where he mentioned spamming Resto Wards over and over. They need to be used in conjunction with something to be effective and usually spamming is set aside for something along the lines of a heal.

DeLindsay

For Group PvE Ward Ally is superior, considering most times it's entire Shield strength is gone in <2 seconds therefore you get no back end Heal. It's also helpful that you as the Healer are always Shielded on use. ZoS actually needs to change the way the 2 Shields work. Change Ward Ally to self + 2 but drop it's duration by 1 second and change Healing Ward to % of duration remaining for the back end Heal instead of on expiration. That way you would always get a back end Heal from Healing Ward and Ward Ally becomes a great way to deal with large spike damage in Group PvE allowing the Healer the time to get Heals down before the next hit.

I've always Healed more cautiously as a NB, using everything at my disposal like Ring of Preservation, VoB, Bone Shield and all Heals within the Resto Tree, and ofc Funnel Health. Your concept for 1.6 Damage-Healing @Darkintellect is great, it reminds me of icar builds for Clerics pre-HK in Rift. I was actually able to solo Heal Tier 2 Experts with Inquisicar and even a few 10m Sliver Bosses (as the 2nd Healer). I'm very interested to see how things end up in 1.6 but it's all looking promising for Healers in general.

I'd love to see ZoS implement even some of the changes I'm requesting but I realize that even though they say they read the Forums it's more likely that Mods are doing the reading for them and only bringing things to their attention that they think is important. And since Healing isn't technically broken it's probably low on their list of priorities to even consider.

DeLindsay

Newest Vet DSA World record of 58 Min 54 Sec (4 min faster than EU) and guess what Healing Class WASN'T present, that's right Templar. They had a Sorc Healer. I love it when people prove the Classist snobs wrong and show that Templars aren't the almighty Healing Gods that many think they are and other Classes are more than capable in the right hands. It cracks me up that the very first comment was surprised they had no Templar and wondered what Class Healed it lols.