NB DPS engame discussion: are we still second-class citizen?

Rshidva

Since everyone knows that NB healer, is totally useless (except vdsa) in endgame content and our only purpose in life is either be one of those rare NB tanks or NB dps. This being said: I love being a NB, but our DPS is by far outclassed by other build and it is kind a frustrating to be "just a veil w h o r e". Our only purpose in life is veils. No veils, no NB in endgame content. Bring a DK or a (now in pts) a sorc for SO or other trials.
Cause sure we can DPS but not as good as them. It would be nice to consider all DPS a bit more equally. The facts:

Best NB DPS magicka build/players right now in 1.5: 800-1000dps on Serpent
Best NB DPS stamina build right now in 1.5: 1000 to 1.4k on Serpent (I know one dude who can 1.5 but that is one dude on thousands).

Best DK DPS magicka build right now on serpent: 1000 to 1800 on dps (yup 1.8 sustained on serpent is possible)
Even sorcs outclass our dps

Now, I can't show the numbers cause I did not record them properly to my dismay. I've played a round abit in PTS, and discussing with two awesome theorycrafters for NB, some of the best NB in the game which spend 2 days just trying out tons of builds and CP points. Conclusion:

DPS is ok. Ok as is not as as good as DK's and Sorcs in 1.6. Regardless of the build we will be 2 to 4k DPS below the DK and sorc.

And that is coming from experienced, endgame veteran players. Imagine normal players. they will be off target so far that no one will want to invite them to nothing. and yes 2 to 4k difference is alot. after 20 seconds you have slowed down the group of 40 to 80k damage.

The result due to our significantly lower DPS: our only purpose in life is to be a veil ***. No veils, no NB's in endgame content other "than to look cool" and do "cool stuff" (cause NB are awesome).

And by no means, the class is cool and badass. We can do tons of stuff in normal pve. But for endgame we kinda suck or at best : second class citizen. We are brought in a dungeon cause people need veils. more than 2 NB in a pro SO run is considered as "sucky". More than 3 NB on a SO run might lead to failure cause "DPS will be too low". Right now there are only a couple NB players that can reach the highest DPS in PVE.

Unless NB only place in ESO is pvp then hey we still rock the house.

And by no means that means "nerf the other so that we are all equally sucky". But it would be nice to live in a world where NB are more on par with the other classes. and not second class citizen aka "cheap veil w h o r e".

Solution: super simple: bring up the damage we do just enough so it works. The skills are awesome, the class is awesome, the whole NB thing is super sexy (imo). But our base numbers of dps on skills are low compared to sorcs and DK's for endgame content.

GreyBrow

tl;dr

DK DPS on the SERPENT is generally 1000-1200 if the DK is parsing 1800. Use combat analytics... the extra 800 DPS comes from cleaving secondary targets.

Secondly, only 3 DK's in THE ENTIRE GAME are able to parse over 1600 on the serpent fight.

You pull 1400 purely single target DPS as a stamina nightblade, which is by FAR the highest sustained single target DPS in the game.

If you're pulling 1k DPS as a magicka nightblade, you are also putting out 1000 heals per second.

This is called balance my newfriend. Stop whining.

Alphashado

This entire conversation so far is based on 1.5

Things are different in 1.6

I've been tinkering with my NB and I think they are going to do fine with melee. I've been sustaining 11k-12k dps on zone bosses and such using a DW build with Relentless Focus, Reaper's mark, Ambush, and Rapid Strikes.

However, I still haven't been able to do anything impressive with the Bow. The stamina build bow rotation I was using seems to be garbage now. Even with Reapers mark and Relentless Focus, I can't seem to sustain anything higher than 8k DPS. Not sure why yet exactly, I'm still tinkering with it, but it sure looks like Bow builds got hammered.

Don't get me wrong. Burst Bow damage from stealth is still amazing with Reaper's Mark, and I'm sure everyone in Cyrodiil will still be crying about that. But sustained dps on PvE bosses is a real concern for me at this point. I'm hoping someone figures out a good build soon because I would hate to see NBs forced to go melee for competitive DPS.

Of course this is all stamina based discussion. I haven't tested anything at all in regards to NB Magicka Builds.

Tavore1138

There are viable builds for stam NBs for providing short term DPS but as the excellent and detailed thread from the Sigma Draconis guild points out in bigger longer boss fights the stamina pool empties very fast.

Same is true in PvP - if you start needing to roll dodge, block and interrupt as well as keeping your actual attacks up the stamina pool empties a lot quicker than it does on 1.5.

And there are fewer, less effective ways to refill it.

Aenlir

On the serpent with my DK I pull about 1600, but that includes having the mantikora up a few times. On my nb with rapid strikes I get 1.2k-1.3k and this is without aoe from the mantikora. So without aoe my dk would be closer to the nb. The main reason people want dks is really to speed up the trash in SO as dks aoe is far superior to any other class. (Which is fixed in 1.6 because of ultimate generation)

Rshidva

Which is the whole point of this post:
you are, with 11 to 12k dps lower than DK's and sorcs who will reach much farther. No mattter how hard you struggle.

Magicka NB will get even lower deeps. and no, it is not 1000 heals with 1000 dps. fyour only heals are from funnels and it doesn't reach that far.

Like said: usefull yes. On par? No.

Was it like that in 1.5 yes. Is it similar in 1.6 yes.

Aeratus

Best NB DPS magicka build/players right now in 1.5: 800-1000dps on Serpent

No it's not. 1100-1200 is possible magicka NB. Crushing shock build.

Rshidva

with less veils than funnel. Better be a stam build at that moment, you'll have higher dps but less veils