Bow DPS - completly broken

Alcast · February 2015

The Animation of Snipe seems awkward and I do not manage to shoot a Light Attack after Snipe some times.

NB LIVE server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 1,5k with no support. (With RM)
NB PTS server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 7k dmg with no support. (With RM)

With Reapers mark the Enemy should be heavily debuffed in both armor and spellres. So it is not an issue of the boss having more Armor than before.

I am aware that my Weapon crit is lower on PTS than on Live. However, I do have like 100 additional Weapon damage on PTS than on Live.

Still that should not cut my dps in half. So either they nerfed Snipe about 40% or it is just the new animation that feels clumppy and makes dps much lower.

Comparison 2hander/Bow

http://youtu.be/V9J2BhmMaX8

Wolfsspinne · February 2015

Did you compare this to any other weapon?
Maybe it's no just the bow but all weapons that are "broken".

DeLindsay · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

NB LIVE server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 1,5k with no support. (With RM)
NB PTS server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 7k dmg with no support. (With RM)

Still that should not cut my dps in half. So either they nerfed Snipe about 40% or it is just the new animation that feels clumppy and makes dps much lower.

I haven't seen anyone doing a full x10 DPS from Live to PTS with their regular Live builds. I can reach ~1.6K DPS on my VR14 Magicka NB in the best of group situations but my absolute best (solo mind you) testing DPS on PTS 1.6 was 10.8K. That's quite respectable considering many are averaging ~7K, which I also average when not under perfect circumstances. I'm not talking about the Derp Mage build that does 15K with 2 abilities and Pets, or the 33K WW build that stacks Stam/Wpn dmg but tried and true Live builds translated to PTS with a few minor tweaks.

7K on Blood Spawn seems low though if you normally pull 1.5K on Live. I would figure you should be doing 10-12K on PTS as my normal on Blood Spawn isn't anywhere near 1.6K but more like 900-1.2K. Unfortunately I just couldn't find a group to test Vet Dungeons while NA had their turn so I can't say from personal testing experience in Dungeons/Trials, only on VR10 WB's and the like that most of us tested on.

Costismaros · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

The Animation of Snipe seems awkward and I do not manage to shoot a Light Attack after Snipe some times.

NB LIVE server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 1,5k with no support. (With RM)
NB PTS server: On Bloodspawn I can pull around 7k dmg with no support. (With RM)

With Reapers mark the Enemy should be heavily debuffed in both armor and spellres. So it is not an issue of the boss having more Armor than before.

I am aware that my Weapon crit is lower on PTS than on Live. However, I do have like 100 additional Weapon damage on PTS than on Live.

Still that should not cut my dps in half. So either they nerfed Snipe about 40% or it is just the new animation that feels clumppy and makes dps much lower.

I agree, i was doing with my DK bow 1.2k dps on bloodspawn and now imdoing 7k . My dual dagger build scaled down a bit but not that much (1.2k dps ->10k dps).

Nacario · February 2015

Only thing I can comment on is that reapers mark went from 75% armor reduction to 40% but that shouldnt be the sole reason. They even lowered the cast time with focused aim/lethal arrow by 0.1 sec. Maybe it has to do with some new animations making weaving/cancelling more time consuming? Still that wouldnt be the sole issue.

What about weapon power? We are nerfed as long as ur not into the right champion talents.

Syntse · February 2015

And this all with conception that all should have been scaled exact 10x which is not the case in most cases. How much longer it takes to down same mobs in PTS? Not counting of courses bosses that have been stated that their hp has been upped. In most cases they have also scaled down the mobs hp so even though 7k/dps is not 1.4k*10 you are prolly making same dps or better to say ttk as before.

pppontus · February 2015

Comparing a standardized mob (Scaled Court Conjurer) in SO, 7.7k is roughly equivalent to 1.4k. However I agree that the bow is fairly weak now, most builds outgoing damage have gone up by quite a lot while bow is roughly the same. I mean sorcs can pull 12-13k

Gigasax · February 2015

I can confirm the ~7k DPS with a bow.
With the same "Build"/Equipment (15Points in Health, all other in Stamina) i made roughly 10-11k DPS with DW

Syntse · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I mean sorcs can pull 12-13k

This is most likely new found synergies with the skills and if developers see that is too much then they tweak those skills a bit. Or of course there is possibility that bows since being powerful for a short time is really nerfed to be not so valid choice anymore.

pppontus · February 2015

Honestly, it was nerfed. My focused aim damage (non-crit) in 1.5 was about 1K, in 1.6 it's 5,5K. That's the lowest modifier I have seen on any skill whatsoever. Add to that the crit nerf, and Bow is not a viable option for DPS anymore, at all.

I will gather some exact numbers when possible

Edit: Focused Aim non-crit went from 1058 -> 5574.

Alcast · February 2015

Comparison 2hander/ Bow

To me it seems that they have fixed 2hander animation, seems a lot easier to weave light/heavy attacks now but they broke the bow animation because i seem to have huge trouble weaving light/heavy attacks.

http://youtu.be/V9J2BhmMaX8

Syntse · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Honestly, it was nerfed. My focused aim damage (non-crit) in 1.6 was about 1K, in 1.7 it's 5,5K. That's the lowest modifier I have seen on any skill whatsoever. Add to that the crit nerf, and Bow is not a viable option for DPS anymore, at all.

I will gather some exact numbers when possible

Think you mean 1.5 and 1.6 unless you can see into the future. Anyway let's get some data with ttk preferably. I'll try to do some testing myself too unless we finally decide to run some dungeons.

pppontus · February 2015

Syntse wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Honestly, it was nerfed. My focused aim damage (non-crit) in 1.6 was about 1K, in 1.7 it's 5,5K. That's the lowest modifier I have seen on any skill whatsoever. Add to that the crit nerf, and Bow is not a viable option for DPS anymore, at all.

I will gather some exact numbers when possible

Think you mean 1.5 and 1.6 unless you can see into the future. Anyway let's get some data with ttk preferably. I'll try to do some testing myself too unless we finally decide to run some dungeons.

Good catch. Would be nice if I could!

I'll try and get TTK on the conjurer as I can compare this directly to my old bow numbers on the exact same target. If I can get some free time that is

GaldorP · February 2015

Weaving with a bow certainly feels a lot more clunky now in 1.6. and is definitely slower. It's easier to do with partially charged heavy attacks than with light attacks.

Additionally, the damage of bow light attacks got greatly reduced from 345 (non crit on a regular VR 11 monster from max range with a stamina bow DK) to 1330 (non crit on the same monster type from max range with a max stamina bow DK build, 26 points in Mighty [Ritual Champion System passive]). Partially charged heavy attacks will hit for at least 1.8k damage, up to 8k damage with a fully charged heavy attack (non crit from max range with the same build that has 27k Stamina), depending on how long you hold your attack button/left-mouse button to charge .

Don't know if other weapons have had the same changes applied to them.
Haven't been able to test sustained dps on a boss, yet, either. Both Focused Aim and fully charged heavy attacks with a bow can crit for over 20k damage, now, when used from stealth and with the right buffs.

Edit: A single attack can hit for almost 40k damage if it's a crit and Evil Hunter procs and crits at the same time. That zombie exploded I think ^^

Syntse · February 2015

Did some quick tests just for the snipe, unfortunately I do not have exact match there as I took another morph in PTS and it's only lvl 1 morphed yet and some situations vary like cyrodiil bonuses and prolly food too. Attribute distribution are exactly the same in both.

PTS Lethal Arrow I
Live Focused AIM IV

Did the test to mammoths since only testing damage on one skill.
Mammoth live 6400hp / pts 46078hp (7.2 multiplier)

PTS 5820 dmg avg, CRIT 10067 dmg avg, CRIT 15395 dmg sneak behind
Live 770 dmg avg, CRIT 1325 dmg avg, CRIT 1963 dmg sneak behind
Multipliers 7.55, 7.60, 7.84

What also noticed that I seem to kill mammoth about 2 seconds faster in PTS than in Live. Also that I seem to crit more often in PTS even though my crit is lower.

PTS Crit% 42
Live Crit% 53

Of course in comparison to other classes skills the bow might be nerfed but by it's own comparing live and pts I really cannot see any big nerf in my small test, more like seems it's slightly better.

pppontus · February 2015

Interesting results, did a quick one myself (against Scorpions as they were close):
Live: 859, *1516*
PTS: 5605, *9008*

Not sure why my attacks did 1K before but yeah. I also noticed some weird things where I my Focused Aim crit for 2K on the PTS?? Not sure what is going on with that.

timidobserver · February 2015

Everyone is doing less damage on the pts not just bow users. Most people are landing somewhere between 5k and 10k on sustained fights. The standardized buffs and potions not working right are reducing all dps.

One thing to note is that the 12% spell crit/weapon crit champion point passives are going to be mandatory for dps builds.

Syntse · February 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Everyone is doing less damage on the pts not just bow users. Most people are landing somewhere between 5k and 10k on sustained fights. The standardized buffs and potions not working right are reducing all dps.

How do you count that people are doing less damage? Since just looking at numbers 1K-1.4K versus 5k-10k people are doing way more

One thing to note is that the 12% spell crit/weapon crit champion point passives are going to be mandatory for dps builds.

Agree on this, going to try get there as soon as possible.

Kerioko · February 2015

I can get around 6-7K with a bow only rotation and 7-8K with an all melee rotation...I ind of like that melee does more damage then ranged because you put yourself in more danger...

When I run my NB (24K health, 18K stam) I run reapers mark, rally, grim focus, and evil hunter for buffs and debuffs. I can use bow to stack dots with scorched earth and poison injection, then swap to two-handed and stack cleave bleed followed by a wrecking blow heavy rotation.

By keeping this rotation and all dots, buffs, and debuffs up, I can avg 11-13K when I get everything timed perfect...Most of the time I average 9-10K!

I messed around and put everything I had into stamina (33K stam) and was able to pull 15K with this rotation...but this is not reasonable considering my health was only 14K, meaning impending death in any end game content!

Another thing I noticed is burst if off the chain with this build as I can hit 60-100K in under 2 sec!

Alphashado · February 2015

I have a feeling this is going to be a staple of many bow builds now. Can't beat the passive buff to crit.

I grabbed that and thief on the Template Gear {Celerity/Ohpidian/Venom (total +6)} and ended up at 42% crit. Combined with 8% dmg boost from Dawnbreaker, 8% dmg boost from Relentless Fury, and the debuff from Reapers Mark and I was able to sustain around 10k on world bosses with the Bow.

I haven't tested it on a longer sustained fight like a dungeon or Trial boss.

Vordae · February 2015

Also Reapers Mark was greatly reduced in effectiveness. Its not a percentage reduction anymore. Its a flat 5120 reduction to armor and spell resist at vr 14. This is a big reason for NB's reduced dps.

Nacario · February 2015

Thats a bit lame since on the patch notes for this PTS it said 40% armor reduction, not a flat number reduction. They need to update that then.

Tankqull · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Comparison 2hander/ Bow

To me it seems that they have fixed 2hander animation, seems a lot easier to weave light/heavy attacks now but they broke the bow animation because i seem to have huge trouble weaving light/heavy attacks.

http://youtu.be/V9J2BhmMaX8

i might stand alone here but i feel the difference in DPS is as it should be between a physical meelee and range build...
if you take out the explosion proced by your fire dd weaponproc you are facing an advantage of roughly 30% in dps between 2h and bow. if you substitute the executioner attacks with wrecking blows to match the fact of no existing bow finisher the advantage will go down to 10-20%.
and from my PoV that is quite the amount a range class not exposing them self to the enemy should deal less than a close combat fighter that has to evade puddles etc. lowering his dps significantly.

Alcast · February 2015

Valkyn Skoria with bow. As you see my Light attacks almost never go off due to this clumbsy animation bug on PTS.

Dps is not really high, for hardmode not nearly enough. Though I think with propper rotation I could get up to 8-9k dps with bow. (That is with 70 CP)

You can see the damage in the chat window.
7800 dps over 240 secs.