Paygate and ppl rant

UrQuan

Digiman wrote: »

Never use a buzz word combined with the word "gate". That's just terrible for everyone and ruins the quality of the world like a stain on the soul.

I don't think you understand the sense in which "paygate" is used in such discussions. It's not used in the "Watergate" sense (which is what I believe you are referring to: taking a buzzword and adding "gate" to the end of it to indicate a scandal, which makes no bloody sense anyway, since Watergate was only Watergate because that was the name of the hotel where it happened).

Instead it's used in the sense that paying a fee opens the gate that allows you to play. An initial paygate is what separates the B2P model from the F2P model, and both B2P and F2P games can have additional paygates in order to access content that you won't get without paying extra (such as how DLC will work under the new model for ESO).

Funkopotamus

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Are you typing from a phone or trying to leave us a code?

Hah... I s ee wh a t yo u did t here

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Dave2836‌
What I mean by equalizer is unrelated to the community. I'm just stating that without a cash shop, a susbcription is the minimum and maximum one has to pay in order to be competitive whithin the game.
There is free time and skill differences between players, but their wallet isn't one.
My post was simply to explain what the appeal is for a susbcription, and at no point did I mention "community being better".

I personally don't think susbcription or f2p/b2p games necessarily have bad communities. I think the game mechanics have more impact on how players perceive each others than the revenue model.

@theStrict9‌
Why do you think games can even afford to exist as f2p? It's because nowadays, infrastructure costs are almost non existent
A player's cost in infrastructure and maintenance staff is of a few cents per month, perhaps less if the player base is large enough due to economy of scale.

As an example, as an individual I rent a dedicated server for 45 euros a month. That server could host 200 players at a time and usually, less than a fifth of the playerbase is connected at once. That's a minimum of 1000 susbcriber with one node. 0.045 euro a month per player.
A company buying in bulk and with the mega server technology (shutting down servers when not needed) will of course have bulk deals and pay less than I do.
Just look at Amazon EC2 pricing for an illustration that would be even more overpaying.

MMOs are amongst the safest investment there is.
They can be very large investments, so they have a high perceived barrier of entry, but the ROI is guaranteed. They don't have to be a "dominant force". Find a niche and exploit it properly, and you make a profit. Exploit it very well, and you expand your niche and end up with Eve Online.
To take an illustration I read not too long ago, creating a themepark MMO like ESO is like rolling a die. On 1, you get your investment back, on 2 to 5 you get 10 times your investment and on 6 you get 100 times your investment.

We only have access to estimates, but ESO suposedly cost around $200M and has made $111M in the first 6 months. With the console sales, it will be well beyond reimbursing its cost.
A studio of ZOS size has operating costs of around $18M yearly, so anything above 100k subscriber is a net profit. ESO is well above that number.

F2P mmorpgs do not have all those luxuries. They don't generate as much revenue as susbcription games. Sure there is a locust wave that occur, and for a few months everything is better, but they then get back to their natural size. And that's if they are lucky, because breaking the game for the core audience means they will leave, and most mmos end up even lower in active players, but without them paying monthly.

ESO is a game full of potential, that's what people were paying for, because frankly right now, it's not yet a great game. It was starting to turn around though, and it was seing some growth during the last couple months.
But as the change occur, there are virtually no chances to see the full potential of the game be realized.

I don't mean to be patronizing, but next time, before calling something untrue, do your homeworks.

ShadowDisciple

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Dave2836‌

And after the "locust plague" ends...the problems begin and they start making cash shop more attractive to get more money..

Thats my only fear

BlueIllyrian

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

It is a good thing.

It will bring in more players.

The people that seem to think having about a years experience in a game makes them an ESO god are so delusional it's ridiculous. New players will catch them up in no time, it's not exactly a hard game to learn.

3 way PvP isn't new, it started in DAoC which a lot of folk have played at some point and then appeared in GW2. Pretty sure some folk buying on console or new PC players will know what they are doing.

Even if they haven't played one of those, Cyrodiil is about as basic as it comes for PvP. Takes a few hours to pick it all up at most. Same with the actual game.

MMO's have been around since 1996, at one time or another a hell of a lot of folk have played one or more. They won't exactly have a hard time learning this game.

As for people complaining, nothing we can do about that. Don't try using logic against them it will just confuse them.

If they keep their sub, DLC is free, if they drop their sub they will have to pay for it. Not hard to understand but some people can't seem to grasp it.

Way I look at it is, if people like that can manage to play this game ... anybody can.

Yes, it will bring more players, sort of like local sleazy fast food joint brings in more "customers".

Thank you for enlightening us, luckily you are not like those "other" people.

stylepolice

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Can anyone explain why ppl are angry about the DLC being purchased for cash when they dont have to pay 15$ sub anymore...and on top of that if u pay monthly DLC wil be free to you...

Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

Fully agree...

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

I also saw ppl sayin that in C yrodill all those " noobs" wont work tog ether....IMO they can be used as a diversion or increased f irepower along with your properly funtioning group...

Am i a f ool t o think B2P i only g ood f or the ga me

Health Buffer, Meathshield, Cannonfodder, ... there's just so many names for the phenomenon of players running around like headless chickens.

Razzak

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

...
Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

...

And how much chance of that is there, in your opinion?

Kragorn

Razzak wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

...
Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

...

And how much chance of that is there, in your opinion?

If ZOS follow Trion's example the odds are pretty good I'd say from my own personal experience.

ShadowDisciple

Razzak wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

...
Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

...

And how much chance of that is there, in your opinion?

Fairly big chance...because players hate P2W and in this type of game that can mean the games demise

NewBlacksmurf

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Can anyone explain why ppl are angry about the DLC being purchased for cash when they dont have to pay 15$ sub anymore...and on top of that if u pay monthly DLC wil be free to you...

Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

I also saw ppl sayin that in C yrodill all those " noobs" wont work tog ether....IMO they can be used as a diversion or increased f irepower along with your properly funtioning group...

Am i a f ool t o think B2P i only g ood f or the ga me

Stay a while and listen....(in my Decard Cain voice)
The forum for this game seems to be full of "elitist" mindsets and somehow a person who has paid a subscription now feel like others are not welcome in "their" community or game.

I for one feel as you comment and decided to come back after the announcement. I left for other reasons relating to bugs and error crashes in the past. A lot of the attitude still exists and this was even true with games like WoW. There seems to be a lot of good with this move and this community which is comprised of PC players and some console players like myself will evolve.

My hope is that this group is overshadowed by returning players and new players who are fun, welcoming and here to enjoy the game. As the new accounts are formed and old accounts return the in-game experience will drastically differ. The elitist mindset will still exist but it's almost like the 1970's in America when integration was announced.

Its not everyone and possibly just a very small group who is making a lot of noise. We are all better together...

Audigy

Grebnu wrote: »

"At ESO however and obviously other F2P games you only rent content with your sub and this is at least for me new and also weird."


This game is not going to be F2P! Is it so hard to understand?

I just hate it when people go around yelling "ESO IS GOINT TO F2P!" when that is actually not true. If you behave like a donkey and get your account banned, you have to buy the game all over again. You cannot just "make a new account"...

Please people, try to understand difference between F2P ja B2P. Is GW2 F2P? No. ESO will not be F2P either.

It is, as you don't need to pay to play - this seems hard to understand for you though?

ESO boxes go for less than 10 bucks right now and once Unlimited is out you most likely get them for free if you need them at all.

This is how it was with

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Can anyone explain why ppl are angry about the DLC being purchased for cash when they dont have to pay 15$ sub anymore...and on top of that if u pay monthly DLC wil be free to you...

Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

I also saw ppl sayin that in C yrodill all those " noobs" wont work tog ether....IMO they can be used as a diversion or increased f irepower along with your properly funtioning group...

Am i a f ool t o think B2P i only g ood f or the ga me

Stay a while and listen....(in my Decard Cain voice)
The forum for this game seems to be full of "elitist" mindsets and somehow a person who has paid a subscription now feel like others are not welcome in "their" community or game.

I for one feel as you comment and decided to come back after the announcement. I left for other reasons relating to bugs and error crashes in the past. A lot of the attitude still exists and this was even true with games like WoW. There seems to be a lot of good with this move and this community which is comprised of PC players and some console players like myself will evolve.

My hope is that this group is overshadowed by returning players and new players who are fun, welcoming and here to enjoy the game. As the new accounts are formed and old accounts return the in-game experience will drastically differ. The elitist mindset will still exist but it's almost like the 1970's in America when integration was announced.

Its not everyone and possibly just a very small group who is making a lot of noise. We are all better together...

You seem to be a person with F2P experience in MMOs, therefore for you just renting content is fine. No big deal there, we all have different lifes and gaming experience in that regard.

However, to call people elitist just because they don't understand why they suddenly still pay money and no longer buy new updates with it, is very rude.

You need to consider one thing, for the majority of the ESO gamers paying a Sub is what we do to play. But in future that sub wont be enough anymore and this makes people suspicious.

It just seems like a fraud, especially if non subscribers get more for less money. Keep in mind those of us have paid for ESO a full year and were lied to over and over.

Right now the future system looks like this.

Play F2P and buy a DLC once or twice a year for maybe 10 bucks each. So that you paid 20 bucks, while others paid over 100 - this just doesn't seem right.

F2P gamers being not welcome is also wrong, people are just afraid those that play for free will ruin their game experience, as a F2P gamer has nothing to lose, he cant get banned as the game is free for him anyways

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Where are people picking up all this "elitism" nonesense?

f2p/b2p games become bad, they have revenue losses and become p2w.
That's all there is. No one thinks they are better for paying a measly $15 a month.

Razzak

Kragorn wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

...
Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

...

And how much chance of that is there, in your opinion?

If ZOS follow Trion's example the odds are pretty good I'd say from my own personal experience.

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

...
Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

...

And how much chance of that is there, in your opinion?

Fairly big chance...because players hate P2W and in this type of game that can mean the games demise

I am only guessing, but by the looks of it, you two are fairly new to this game or at least to this forum. You might be surprised by decision making process at ZOS.

Soulshine

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Dave2836‌
ESO is a game full of potential.....

Interesting post. I saved only the above there because it made me chuckle. If I had a dime at this point for every time I have said that, let alone seen it on the forums, I would be able to buy many copies of this game several times over.

Truth is I was not here paying a sub for the game's "potential." I believed it would in fact be a great game to play and that is why a chose to pay. In many respects it was but in many others it turned out to be exactly the opposite.

I disagree with your view that in the last couple of months there has been growth. I don't consider the recent annoucement of the business model and the core game systems changes to be "growth." Those are in fact attempted remedies to problems which have been going on in the game's development since launch.

If there is no growth in the game other than these continued types of fixes during months following console launch (which seems to have been their biggest priority for a very long time now), there will be little point for this player at least to stick around. Potential be hanged.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Soulshine‌
I ment growth as in active susbcriptions.
I do think also that the game is much better now than it was at launch, it is subjective of course, but I guess other feel this way too seeing as numbers picked up.

Slurg

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Where are people picking up all this "elitism" nonesense?

f2p/b2p games become bad, they have revenue losses and become p2w.
That's all there is. No one thinks they are better for paying a measly $15 a month.

Did you not see the thread yesterday from the guy who wanted separate instances for subscribers to stay separated from the free players, or the many posts over the last couple of weeks from people who want some visual indicators in game showing players' payment status so they could discriminate accordingly, or the guildmaster who asked for an indicator in the guild roster so he could kick non subscribers out? Those are just a few examples of elitism I've seen lately.

Now the quality of B2p/F2p games is a completely different issue and is a cause for concern if it's done like other companies have done it.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Slurg wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Where are people picking up all this "elitism" nonesense?

f2p/b2p games become bad, they have revenue losses and become p2w.
That's all there is. No one thinks they are better for paying a measly $15 a month.

Did you not see the thread yesterday from the guy who wanted separate instances for subscribers to stay separated from the free players, or the many posts over the last couple of weeks from people who want some visual indicators in game showing players' payment status so they could discriminate accordingly, or the guildmaster who asked for an indicator in the guild roster so he could kick non subscribers out? Those are just a few examples of elitism I've seen lately.

Now the quality of B2p/F2p games is a completely different issue and is a cause for concern if it's done like other companies have done it.

I see. I wouldn't call that elitism, but I understand why one would see it that way.

Doesn't really matter though, we're in trouble and elitism/community quality is the least of our worries.

Soulshine

Slurg wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Where are people picking up all this "elitism" nonesense?

f2p/b2p games become bad, they have revenue losses and become p2w.
That's all there is. No one thinks they are better for paying a measly $15 a month.

Did you not see the thread yesterday from the guy who wanted separate instances for subscribers to stay separated from the free players, or the many posts over the last couple of weeks from people who want some visual indicators in game showing players' payment status so they could discriminate accordingly, or the guildmaster who asked for an indicator in the guild roster so he could kick non subscribers out? Those are just a few examples of elitism I've seen lately.

Now the quality of B2p/F2p games is a completely different issue and is a cause for concern if it's done like other companies have done it.

Yikes. Even the last guild I was in was not THAT bad, and some would identify them as "elitist" given their own self promotion... just when you think you've seen everything, lol.

JamilaRaj

Slurg wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Where are people picking up all this "elitism" nonesense?

f2p/b2p games become bad, they have revenue losses and become p2w.
That's all there is. No one thinks they are better for paying a measly $15 a month.

Did you not see the thread yesterday from the guy who wanted separate instances for subscribers to stay separated from the free players, or the many posts over the last couple of weeks from people who want some visual indicators in game showing players' payment status so they could discriminate accordingly, or the guildmaster who asked for an indicator in the guild roster so he could kick non subscribers out? Those are just a few examples of elitism I've seen lately.

Now the quality of B2p/F2p games is a completely different issue and is a cause for concern if it's done like other companies have done it.

It's related to switch from P2P though. Of course people think they are better and entitled to be if they pay (be it subs, cash shop transactions or DLC purchases), because they are; they pay to get advantages over and unavailable to free players, and they get them.
That request to see who is subbed and who is not is quite sensible. DLC will have to be very desirable in order make sales, and so guilds will focus on playing ti as it comes out, but what with guildies that can't get there? They'll have to be terminated.

Metrobius

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Can anyone explain why ppl are angry about the DLC being purchased for cash when they dont have to pay 15$ sub anymore...and on top of that if u pay monthly DLC wil be free to you...

Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

I also saw ppl sayin that in C yrodill all those " noobs" wont work tog ether....IMO they can be used as a diversion or increased f irepower along with your properly funtioning group...

Am i a f ool t o think B2P i only g ood f or the ga me

I dont care about the buy to play transition. It could be good or bad depending on how ZOS handles it. Im very irritated by the way ZOS lied to us over and over. They pushed back content releases and lied about the reasons, then Magically released a fully formed cash shop with plenty of shinies already in it, just as if someone cracked matt firrors skull open to let Athena out.
the only way to see this is that zos lied about what they were working on and kept promising us new content even though they knew they were not even working on it.
ZOS used us like a kickstarter to fund development on their cash shop and console release, lieing the whole time to keep us subbed.

I wish I lived in a nation with consumer protections so we could bring charges.

Jeremy

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Can anyone explain why ppl are angry about the DLC being purchased for cash when they dont have to pay 15$ sub anymore...and on top of that if u pay monthly DLC wil be free to you...

Imo B2P if it doesent turn into P2W is a great thing f or ESO....

I also saw ppl sayin that in C yrodill all those " noobs" wont work tog ether....IMO they can be used as a diversion or increased f irepower along with your properly funtioning group...

Am i a f ool t o think B2P i only g ood f or the ga me

They are angry because of past experiences.

Usually when a game drops subscriptions and adds a cash shop that's a tell/tell sign the developers have decided to develop the game on the cheap while trying to appeal to a different audience to increase revenue.

So if you are someone who currently enjoys ESO as it is you aren't going to be very happy with such an outcome.

Tandor

Audigy wrote: »

So many insults already... makes the whole thread pointless imo.

I cant speak for others here, but for me a non F2P person paying money, but not receiving the good I pay for is weird and smells bad.

If I pay my sub at WOW, Ultima & Co. then I automatically buy the DLC´s. The companies release new content, be it a dungeon, BG, Story line or quests and I can always use it as I buy it by having a sub.

At ESO however and obviously other F2P games you only rent content with your sub and this is at least for me new and also weird.

Maybe this is how things are done among F2P games, I don't know... but at least in my books paying money, but only renting content sounds weird.

If at one point a player might not want to sub anymore, then he is stripped of everything he paid for, its a miracle to me that such a payment model actually seems to work, but todays generation is different than our old one I guess.

When you pay your sub at WoW, you can play the game including any additions you've paid for separately. When you suspend your sub you are locked out of the game, in its entirety. That is also the case currently with ESO. If you want to play any part of the game again you have to re-sub. You don't have any access to the game you've been paying for unless you continue to pay.

However, after the business model changes in ESO, when you pay your sub you will be able to play the game including any DLC which will be free as it is covered by the sub. When you suspend your sub you will still be able to play most of the game free of charge, you will not be locked out of it in its entirety, and you will be able to resume playing the DLC either by re-subbing or paying for it separately.

ShadowDisciple

I havent played GW2 but can someone say to me...

Is GW2 P2W...i dont think it is and it had same B2P model like ESO will have..

ofc there is a difference in developers but still...imo ppl hate P2W games so much that i dint think ZOS would risk loosing BUNCH of players (i would leave also)

Mercutio

Mercutio

Dave2836 wrote: »

The analogy here would be MMO = gym, playing the game = lifting the iron, the constructive criticism could be us...

Great post all around, Dave. I believe that most people will help the new players, but there will always be that subset in need of psychological validation for whatever reason that they were into the band first and have the tee shirt to prove it, ergo all Johnny-come-lately's are not 'true fans' and don't 'really get or appreciate the band'.

They sure do like listening to those new albums made possible by the new fan's dollars though.

Mercutio

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

And after the "locust plague" ends...the problems begin and they start making cash shop more attractive to get more money..

Thats my only fear

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain"... Abraham Lincoln

Guppet

Audigy wrote: »

So many insults already... makes the whole thread pointless imo.

I cant speak for others here, but for me a non F2P person paying money, but not receiving the good I pay for is weird and smells bad.

If I pay my sub at WOW, Ultima & Co. then I automatically buy the DLC´s. The companies release new content, be it a dungeon, BG, Story line or quests and I can always use it as I buy it by having a sub.

At ESO however and obviously other F2P games you only rent content with your sub and this is at least for me new and also weird.

Maybe this is how things are done among F2P games, I don't know... but at least in my books paying money, but only renting content sounds weird.

If at one point a player might not want to sub anymore, then he is stripped of everything he paid for, its a miracle to me that such a payment model actually seems to work, but todays generation is different than our old one I guess.

How do people not understand that it changes nothing for them.

Currently if you end your sub, you can't access any content at all. In the new system, if you end your sub, you can still access most things.

If you don't like the new model, stay subbed, you can access everything then.

Currently you are renting all content, as you can access nothing without a sub. In the new system, you only rent the DLC, everything else is yours forever. How is that in anyway worse?

It gives you options for payment, that's why its such a popular payment model.

rawne1980b16_ESO

BlueIllyrian wrote: »

Yes, it will bring more players, sort of like local sleazy fast food joint brings in more "customers".

Thank you for enlightening us, luckily you are not like those "other" people.

I'm not going to sit here and whine about a game going buy to play, i've got far more important things to worry about like which shirt to wear tonight. It's not the first time i've seen it happen, won't be the last.

I'm not going to sit here and say new players will be the scum of the earth and absolutely useless.

The people playing now were equally terrible at launch, some aren't much better now. It's not a hard game to pick up. An action bar with a grand total of 6 buttons, i'm sure they will find it a daunting task to pick up such a complex system.

I don't have a single problem with new players or those that won't be paying a subscription.

My problem is with people thinking this is their game and that ZOS owes them something. Those that think they are something special because they shelled out £8.99 a month and act like they are the sole reason people at ZOS have a warm meal at night. People whining over veteran rewards being removed.

People acting like they somehow own the place or have any claim at all besides being a miniscule addition to Zenimax's multi million dollar income.

Audigy

Tandor wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

So many insults already... makes the whole thread pointless imo.

I cant speak for others here, but for me a non F2P person paying money, but not receiving the good I pay for is weird and smells bad.

If I pay my sub at WOW, Ultima & Co. then I automatically buy the DLC´s. The companies release new content, be it a dungeon, BG, Story line or quests and I can always use it as I buy it by having a sub.

At ESO however and obviously other F2P games you only rent content with your sub and this is at least for me new and also weird.

Maybe this is how things are done among F2P games, I don't know... but at least in my books paying money, but only renting content sounds weird.

If at one point a player might not want to sub anymore, then he is stripped of everything he paid for, its a miracle to me that such a payment model actually seems to work, but todays generation is different than our old one I guess.

When you pay your sub at WoW, you can play the game including any additions you've paid for separately. When you suspend your sub you are locked out of the game, in its entirety. That is also the case currently with ESO. If you want to play any part of the game again you have to re-sub. You don't have any access to the game you've been paying for unless you continue to pay.

However, after the business model changes in ESO, when you pay your sub you will be able to play the game including any DLC which will be free as it is covered by the sub. When you suspend your sub you will still be able to play most of the game free of charge, you will not be locked out of it in its entirety, and you will be able to resume playing the DLC either by re-subbing or paying for it separately.

While what you say is correct, you forget some small detail.

WOW is a sub only game, so everyone pays and everyone plays. ESO however proclaims to be F2P if you end your sub, but it actually isn't if you lose everything you paid for in the past.

It demands that you either stay subbed forever (in a F2P game a silly demand) or you buy content twice to actually have it if you go F2P.

Joejudas

Exp boosters will be in the cash shop and soul gems from the cash shop won't be bind on purchase so they can be farmed for gold. P2W is happening