5 Pages of Feedback on 1.6 by Sigma Draconis [Update: Trial Videos]

pppontus

Will be streaming a go at Sanctum now if anyone's interested:

Tyr

pppontus wrote: »

So after finally getting a full night of testing on the PTS, I have a few more comments.

Veteran Dungeons seem fairly OK, I don't know if anything changed in the 1.6.1 patch at all or if it's just us getting off the templates but we've managed every dungeon so far including the Praxin pull without ultimates. I am still convinced that the trash is way too powerful though, it's not necessarily hard .. but it is so time consuming. Some of the trash pulls take about as long time as a regular boss fight..

Also XP is abysmal. 30K during enligthment for a dungeon run that takes half an hour or so, puts it at 13 hours per point. That is basically like providing us with thousands of VR levels.

+ the real kicker in my research today which is very sad.

Champion System .. WTF moment
So, there's a "passive" in the Champion System that gives you 12% spell/weapon crit when you have invested 30 points. Now, the Champion System was supposed to prevent large gaps between players and provide a slow long-term progression system.. this is not the way to do it.



What's bound to happen is you're going to have PUGs ask for people only with 90 CP, because you need it to get that passive. Every DPS in the game must have that passive. If you're sitting at 89 CP, you're going to be doing 6% less damage than if you had 90? Those are the kind of gaps that shouldn't be in a system like this.

My suggestion (which I think is the most important one that can be raised in regards to update 6):

Put the crit back on gear, remove this passive and if needed give a little more to the respective "active" stars instead.

This would prevent an enormous gap between different point levels, and provide that long-term progression system that doesn't separate players too much. I'm also sure this needs to be done with other passives, or the passive system needs to be scrapped altogether, because having it this way will do nothing but force a massive grind and make your effectiveness directly related to your CP.

I don't see any way that this can make it to live without causing very serious issues with game balance.

How is this a problem? It will take 3 weeks of casual play to get the 20CP you need or 1 week of heavy play.

pppontus

Tyr wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

So after finally getting a full night of testing on the PTS, I have a few more comments.

Veteran Dungeons seem fairly OK, I don't know if anything changed in the 1.6.1 patch at all or if it's just us getting off the templates but we've managed every dungeon so far including the Praxin pull without ultimates. I am still convinced that the trash is way too powerful though, it's not necessarily hard .. but it is so time consuming. Some of the trash pulls take about as long time as a regular boss fight..

Also XP is abysmal. 30K during enligthment for a dungeon run that takes half an hour or so, puts it at 13 hours per point. That is basically like providing us with thousands of VR levels.

+ the real kicker in my research today which is very sad.

Champion System .. WTF moment
So, there's a "passive" in the Champion System that gives you 12% spell/weapon crit when you have invested 30 points. Now, the Champion System was supposed to prevent large gaps between players and provide a slow long-term progression system.. this is not the way to do it.



What's bound to happen is you're going to have PUGs ask for people only with 90 CP, because you need it to get that passive. Every DPS in the game must have that passive. If you're sitting at 89 CP, you're going to be doing 6% less damage than if you had 90? Those are the kind of gaps that shouldn't be in a system like this.

My suggestion (which I think is the most important one that can be raised in regards to update 6):

Put the crit back on gear, remove this passive and if needed give a little more to the respective "active" stars instead.

This would prevent an enormous gap between different point levels, and provide that long-term progression system that doesn't separate players too much. I'm also sure this needs to be done with other passives, or the passive system needs to be scrapped altogether, because having it this way will do nothing but force a massive grind and make your effectiveness directly related to your CP.

I don't see any way that this can make it to live without causing very serious issues with game balance.

How is this a problem? It will take 3 weeks of casual play to get the 20CP you need or 1 week of heavy play.

Because it creates the power gap that the CS wasn't supposed to do. Why should a person with 89 CP be crap and one with 90 CP good?

Either way, all the arguments are there, feel free to disagree however. It's just my feedback.

TehMagnus

pppontus wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

So after finally getting a full night of testing on the PTS, I have a few more comments.

Veteran Dungeons seem fairly OK, I don't know if anything changed in the 1.6.1 patch at all or if it's just us getting off the templates but we've managed every dungeon so far including the Praxin pull without ultimates. I am still convinced that the trash is way too powerful though, it's not necessarily hard .. but it is so time consuming. Some of the trash pulls take about as long time as a regular boss fight..

Also XP is abysmal. 30K during enligthment for a dungeon run that takes half an hour or so, puts it at 13 hours per point. That is basically like providing us with thousands of VR levels.

+ the real kicker in my research today which is very sad.

Champion System .. WTF moment
So, there's a "passive" in the Champion System that gives you 12% spell/weapon crit when you have invested 30 points. Now, the Champion System was supposed to prevent large gaps between players and provide a slow long-term progression system.. this is not the way to do it.



What's bound to happen is you're going to have PUGs ask for people only with 90 CP, because you need it to get that passive. Every DPS in the game must have that passive. If you're sitting at 89 CP, you're going to be doing 6% less damage than if you had 90? Those are the kind of gaps that shouldn't be in a system like this.

My suggestion (which I think is the most important one that can be raised in regards to update 6):

Put the crit back on gear, remove this passive and if needed give a little more to the respective "active" stars instead.

This would prevent an enormous gap between different point levels, and provide that long-term progression system that doesn't separate players too much. I'm also sure this needs to be done with other passives, or the passive system needs to be scrapped altogether, because having it this way will do nothing but force a massive grind and make your effectiveness directly related to your CP.

I don't see any way that this can make it to live without causing very serious issues with game balance.

How is this a problem? It will take 3 weeks of casual play to get the 20CP you need or 1 week of heavy play.

Because it creates the power gap that the CS wasn't supposed to do. Why should a person with 89 CP be crap and one with 90 CP good?

Either way, all the arguments are there, feel free to disagree however. It's just my feedback.

Actually if that spell crit had a progressing percentage that is caped at 12% when u reach 30 CP invested in the tree and increases at a decreassed rate while you invest those 30CP, then it would be a much smoother progression and the issue would be a non issue.

pppontus

TehMagnus wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

So after finally getting a full night of testing on the PTS, I have a few more comments.

Veteran Dungeons seem fairly OK, I don't know if anything changed in the 1.6.1 patch at all or if it's just us getting off the templates but we've managed every dungeon so far including the Praxin pull without ultimates. I am still convinced that the trash is way too powerful though, it's not necessarily hard .. but it is so time consuming. Some of the trash pulls take about as long time as a regular boss fight..

Also XP is abysmal. 30K during enligthment for a dungeon run that takes half an hour or so, puts it at 13 hours per point. That is basically like providing us with thousands of VR levels.

+ the real kicker in my research today which is very sad.

Champion System .. WTF moment
So, there's a "passive" in the Champion System that gives you 12% spell/weapon crit when you have invested 30 points. Now, the Champion System was supposed to prevent large gaps between players and provide a slow long-term progression system.. this is not the way to do it.



What's bound to happen is you're going to have PUGs ask for people only with 90 CP, because you need it to get that passive. Every DPS in the game must have that passive. If you're sitting at 89 CP, you're going to be doing 6% less damage than if you had 90? Those are the kind of gaps that shouldn't be in a system like this.

My suggestion (which I think is the most important one that can be raised in regards to update 6):

Put the crit back on gear, remove this passive and if needed give a little more to the respective "active" stars instead.

This would prevent an enormous gap between different point levels, and provide that long-term progression system that doesn't separate players too much. I'm also sure this needs to be done with other passives, or the passive system needs to be scrapped altogether, because having it this way will do nothing but force a massive grind and make your effectiveness directly related to your CP.

I don't see any way that this can make it to live without causing very serious issues with game balance.

How is this a problem? It will take 3 weeks of casual play to get the 20CP you need or 1 week of heavy play.

Because it creates the power gap that the CS wasn't supposed to do. Why should a person with 89 CP be crap and one with 90 CP good?

Either way, all the arguments are there, feel free to disagree however. It's just my feedback.

Actually if that spell crit had a progressing percentage that is caped at 12% when u reach 30 CP invested in the tree and increases at a decreassed rate while you invest those 30CP, then it would be a much smoother progression and the issue would be a non issue.

Agreed.

pppontus

Killed the Possessed Mantikora on our first venture into SO. Funny enough it was easier than AA, probably since the same tactic still works

The trash mobs are a real PITA though. And Light Armor sucks so bad, I'm sorry, but it is too nerfed. So many mechanics are barely even survivable in 1.6 which will unless tweaked just force every single magicka DPS to go with 2 heavy pieces.. from one obvious armor choice to another. Not really interesting that way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcntMLJ8ir0

Gyudan

Did you find the Mantikora easier than before?
Correct me if I'm wrong but its Health was 2.15M on Live and it's now 11.66M, which is only 5.4x higher. The player DPS seem to have increased by more than that.

pppontus

Gyudan wrote: »

Did you find the Mantikora easier than before?
Correct me if I'm wrong but its Health was 2.15M on Live and it's now 11.66M, which is only 5.4x higher. The player DPS seem to have increased by more than that.

Yes, both the Mantikora and Serpent was relatively nerfed. About 5x multiplier.. we were doing really far from our potential DPS, mismorphed skills (f*** ransack) etc. and it went down in about the same time it takes on live with our proper builds.

TehMagnus

+1 def overall nerf in Sanctum.

Nihil

I agree completely with your perspective on the precision passives in the champion system. They just give to much in comparison to the other passives. By reverting the crit back to gear we will be a step closer in balancing the dps traits on gear. You would still need to be pretty focused on crit damage to pull off more damage in comparison to spell damage trait on sets.

SokarGoldberg

pppontus wrote: »

Introduction
Toggle skills and skill slot inefficiency
This is one that hits Sorcs really hard especially, but has also become prevalent in more skills (Expert Hunter) providing necessary passive buffs. Basically, for every toggle skill you have on your bar, you eliminate a slot from both of your bars. A sorc skill bar in 1.6 might only have 2 useable slots per weapon if you have Inner Light, Winged Twilight and Bound Aegis. A solution could be to allow toggled skills to be toggled on one bar, and still stay on while switching bars. This would still make it a trade-off, but without removing 6 possible active skills.

[...]
/ @pppontus
Officer of Sigma Draconis
http://sigmadraconisgaming.com

I totally have to agree on this point!

This is my biggest issue with the skills on PTS at the moment. If as a Sorc trying to get decent DPS for the PvE end content is mostly only possible by using 60% of your skills for "toggle-stuff" ... I rather not play at all.

It is annoying and boring. You need to leave so many "extra" skills out of your possible combination only because you need to keep those toggles on both bars.
A useful & special skill for the group? (besides the pet mana reg buff) Who can provide it for the group? Don't ask the Sorc. With Curse, Frags, Str. Entropy.. well.. choose your 4th skill wisely.. Wrath or Crushing Shock?
In most PvE raid guilds Sorcs biggest "use" was the Negate. There is a reason why almost all EU trial best times where done with 1 Sorc only.

Now with 1.6 the DPS might get up to other classes with a bit training.. but here is simply nothing else a Sorc could provide for a PvE raid / trial raid.

Since the ulti gathering changes the negate is just too expensive for that little effect you get.

sniserb16_ESO

SokarGoldberg wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Introduction
Toggle skills and skill slot inefficiency
This is one that hits Sorcs really hard especially, but has also become prevalent in more skills (Expert Hunter) providing necessary passive buffs. Basically, for every toggle skill you have on your bar, you eliminate a slot from both of your bars. A sorc skill bar in 1.6 might only have 2 useable slots per weapon if you have Inner Light, Winged Twilight and Bound Aegis. A solution could be to allow toggled skills to be toggled on one bar, and still stay on while switching bars. This would still make it a trade-off, but without removing 6 possible active skills.

[...]
/ @pppontus
Officer of Sigma Draconis
http://sigmadraconisgaming.com

I totally have to agree on this point!

This is my biggest issue with the skills on PTS at the moment. If as a Sorc trying to get decent DPS for the PvE end content is mostly only possible by using 60% of your skills for "toggle-stuff" ... I rather not play at all.

It is annoying and boring. You need to leave so many "extra" skills out of your possible combination only because you need to keep those toggles on both bars.
A useful & special skill for the group? (besides the pet mana reg buff) Who can provide it for the group? Don't ask the Sorc. With Curse, Frags, Str. Entropy.. well.. choose your 4th skill wisely.. Wrath or Crushing Shock?
In most PvE raid guilds Sorcs biggest "use" was the Negate. There is a reason why almost all EU trial best times where done with 1 Sorc only.

Now with 1.6 the DPS might get up to other classes with a bit training.. but here is simply nothing else a Sorc could provide for a PvE raid / trial raid.

Since the ulti gathering changes the negate is just too expensive for that little effect you get.

I aggree with you about toggle skills. A fix would be 1 minute spell por those toggle. Spells that should be recasted

Gyudan

sniserb16_ESO wrote: »

I aggree with you about toggle skills. A fix would be 1 minute spell por those toggle. Spells that should be recasted

That's a bit tricky for pets though, especially the Twilight with its cast time. They're companions, participating in the fight and not just buffs to your stats. A timer would interrupt their damage every 60 seconds, which would be quite annoying.

trimsic_ESO

@pppontus‌
This is a great post. Please find below my remarks:

Stamina drains
I'm not convinced that perma blocking is a good metagame. It's trivializing the combat, it's a souce of imbalance in PVP, and has some issues like block casting. With a higher stamina cost for blocking in place, these problems are likely to be solved. But not completely solved. Your idea about a different blocking cost in Cyrodiil is good, but I think there would be another idea to explore: long range AOE root and disorient effects. The lack of long range CC in this game is really a pain, for both the PVE and the PVP. In PVE we lack the tools to manage the trash mobs in a clean and structured way, and in PVP we lack the tools to manage the masses. I'd loved to see these long range AOE effects in the game, and I'm completely convinced that they would be a great addition to the combat system.

Veteran dungeons
Light armor offers a great offensive potential to the detriment of a minor defense, and this is where 1.6 is going to the right direction. Your attempt to perma block to mitigate the damage is more a workaround than a solution actually, but this is the only one you have in your hands at this moment. AOE CC and AOE taunt would be a great solution, but we don't have these tools yet. I'm not sure we have powerfull enough AOE damage debuff tools either. So the short term solution could be to reduce the output damage of the trash mobs.

Respec costs
I'm not convinced that respec'ing should be a gold sink either. It should be free or have a different approach. For instance, have a look to how templates work in Rift. Your character can have up to 5 different templates so as to have 5 different roles. And you can switch from one template to another for free. However, you have to pay if you want to rebuild one of your templates differently. Such a system would be a great addition to ESO.

Itemization
You said it right. But I would prefer a token system rather than dropping a piece of equipment directly. With a token system, the crafters still have an utility in the game. And with a token system, the players have more control over the exact piece of equipment they want (trait, motif, bonus).

Overall nerf
I agree with you, but in my opinion this problem is not linked to the champion system directly. As you said it, it's linked to many other factors, like the changes they made to the armor rating, block cost, and various attribute adjustments. Having more CP, or being able to grind CP more quickly as a mean to compensate what we lost in 1.6 would be a workaround to this issue. The problem should be solved at the root, through fine tuning of the new combat system, before 1.6 is released.

XP XP XP
If the champion system is designed as a smooth progression system where our characters get stronger as we play the game normally (trials, pledges, dungeons, questing, Cyrodiil, ...), and I think it is, then some changes have to be made to the XP we earn:
- We should be granted much more XP when killing a boss in a dungeon, completing a trial or a pledge.
- We should be granted much more XP when killing a player in Cyrodiil
- Killing trash mobs should not be rewarding (as per 1.6), for obvious reasons.

Bow
It's not only about bows; it's about physical weapon damage builds in general, based on stamina. Magicka builds are still above stamina builds, despite the efforts spent in 1.6 to fix this issue.
Since 1.6 is a major overhaul of the combat system, it's the perfect timing for fixing this issue. No more small steps; a giant leap would be great.
In addition to this problem, we are still stucked in a situation where range attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. This is making no sense, and 1.6 is also the perfect timing for fixing this issue as well.

Toggle skill
Your idea is great. I have always defended the idea of having 1 or 2 more skills per bar. The 5 skills per bar limitation is more and more a constraint for the reasons you said, and is rather a source of frustration than a source of fun. And a game is all about having fun.

Champion system
This is where I disagree with you. While I agree that 12% is quite a huge step, It can be obtained with 90 CP, and this is not a big deal, provided that they fix the XP issue.
Putting the crit rate back to the gear also has a drawback: either it's easy to get that stuff and in that case this is letting only a little space for gear progression, or it's hard to get it and in that case the gap with the PUGs is important.
The current approach looks as a good compromise.

Conclusion
Fine tuning is needed at many different places, and this is not really a surprise given the changes made to 1.6. But once they will be in place, I'm convinced that 1.6 will be a great release.

Fayaburn

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Bow
It's not only about bows; it's about physical weapon damage builds in general, based on stamina. Magicka builds are still above stamina builds, despite the efforts spent in 1.6 to fix this issue.
Since 1.6 is a major overhaul of the combat system, it's the perfect timing for fixing this issue. No more small steps; a giant leap would be great.
In addition to this problem, we are still stucked in a situation where range attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. This is making no sense, and 1.6 is also the perfect timing for fixing this issue as well.

Currently on live and even more with 1.6, the melee stamina builds are superior to magicka ones in term of DPS. The "giant leap" you are talking about was already made with 1.5.

I also disagree about the fact that melee should deal more damage than range.
Melee and range should be able to produce same DPS. However, range should be squishier than melee as a compensation for the benefit of staying at range.

Zapzarap

I don't really think that AA is too hard. You just need to use an know the tactics that we used at the beginning when nobody knowed how to do DPS. We tried it yesterday for a little bit more than one hour and with just 3 people that know AA from release time. We managed it to get quickly to the end boss but there was a little bit dps, tank and lag problems

Anyway, we will try it on monday again but if you are interested in our tactics, I'll post the videos here from the first 3 bosses.

(We are a german guild, so TS-language is german )
1. Storm Atronarch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lk9Fc-Yo5g
2. Stone Atronarch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZMik1obgU
3. Varlariel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szZzH0XmkfU

EDIT: The third boss seems to be buggy... She is always dying at 15%. We are not shure but we think that it is because of the reflective scale from our DK Tank. It seems that the DMG is counting but doesn't show up.

there are some other bugs too in AA but i guess I'll write them down in a bug report

lathbury

Excellent post op hopefully zos reads this and decides to make a few changes. Although for the justice system guards I fear they are to far into development to implement this before live. The rest however seem to involve number tweaks and should be far easier to implement.

Fayaburn

@pppontus
l feel like the new cooldown on weapon swap almost deserves its own section in your initial thread.
It might be to forbid people to macro a Swap-Skill-Swap, but it also breaks responsiveness and dynamics of the combat system for every legit player out there.
Using a skill rotation which includes a weapon swap will be extremely painful if the cooldown is not dropped and some people won't have the choice to include one in their rotation (e.g. Sorcerers and their lol-toggle-bars).

Edit : typos

JLB

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The lack of long range CC in this game is really a pain, for both the PVE and the PVP.

Blazing Spear is a ranged AoE Stun in 1.6. Works wonders.

AoE taunt would be nice for some fights, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
I'd rather have them work on the already existing taunts which are still buggy, too expensive (undaunted 4k magicka or stamina in 1.6...) and still no enemy debuff tracker to have a reliable way to see the timers on taunts, specially when tanking several enemies at a time.

trimsic_ESO

Fayaburn wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Bow
It's not only about bows; it's about physical weapon damage builds in general, based on stamina. Magicka builds are still above stamina builds, despite the efforts spent in 1.6 to fix this issue.
Since 1.6 is a major overhaul of the combat system, it's the perfect timing for fixing this issue. No more small steps; a giant leap would be great.
In addition to this problem, we are still stucked in a situation where range attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. This is making no sense, and 1.6 is also the perfect timing for fixing this issue as well.

Currently on live and even more with 1.6, the melee stamina builds are superior to magicka ones in term of DPS. The "giant leap" you are talking about was already made with 1.5.

I also disagree about the fact that melee should deal more damage than range.
Melee and range should be able to produce same DPS. However, range should be squishier than melee as a compensation for the benefit of staying at range.

Maybe in PVE on a dummy target. But in PVP, magicka builds are vastly superior to stamina builds.

Fayaburn

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Bow
It's not only about bows; it's about physical weapon damage builds in general, based on stamina. Magicka builds are still above stamina builds, despite the efforts spent in 1.6 to fix this issue.
Since 1.6 is a major overhaul of the combat system, it's the perfect timing for fixing this issue. No more small steps; a giant leap would be great.
In addition to this problem, we are still stucked in a situation where range attacks deal more damage than melee attacks. This is making no sense, and 1.6 is also the perfect timing for fixing this issue as well.

Currently on live and even more with 1.6, the melee stamina builds are superior to magicka ones in term of DPS. The "giant leap" you are talking about was already made with 1.5.

I also disagree about the fact that melee should deal more damage than range.
Melee and range should be able to produce same DPS. However, range should be squishier than melee as a compensation for the benefit of staying at range.

Maybe in PVE on a dummy target. But in PVP, magicka builds are vastly superior to stamina builds.

Granted for PvP

Robbmrp

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Toggle skill
Your idea is great. I have always defended the idea of having 1 or 2 more skills per bar. The 5 skills per bar limitation is more and more a constraint for the reasons you said, and is rather a source of frustration than a source of fun. And a game is all about having fun.

Conclusion
Fine tuning is needed at many different places, and this is not really a surprise given the changes made to 1.6. But once they will be in place, I'm convinced that 1.6 will be a great release.

I agree with your recommendation for the Toggle skill but only for the Sorcerer class. They need to have the ability to use 5 spells like any other class NOT INCLUDING PETS. With having a 7 Skill bar for sorcerers, that enables them to be more competitive where DPS is concerned. Those extra 2 skills are ONLY for Pets. If you don't use Pets, you don't get those extra skills. With a main as a Templar, I also have spells on my bar that don't do DPS, BoL for example and limits my DPS. I do not need to have duplicate spells on each bar though which is where other classes have an advantage over Sorcerers.

With Magelight and Critical Surge, those should take up 2 spots as they help increase your DPS. With having 2 dedicated pet slots outside the main 5 skills, it would still give a Sorcerer the ability to have at least 3 damage spells. That's a lot more balanced than only having 1 damage spell.

This would also help solve the issue with CC as it would give 2 pets to take into dungeons/pvp and keep the mob trash in control.

Nihil

Robbmrp wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Toggle skill
Your idea is great. I have always defended the idea of having 1 or 2 more skills per bar. The 5 skills per bar limitation is more and more a constraint for the reasons you said, and is rather a source of frustration than a source of fun. And a game is all about having fun.

Conclusion
Fine tuning is needed at many different places, and this is not really a surprise given the changes made to 1.6. But once they will be in place, I'm convinced that 1.6 will be a great release.

I agree with your recommendation for the Toggle skill but only for the Sorcerer class. They need to have the ability to use 5 spells like any other class NOT INCLUDING PETS. With having a 7 Skill bar for sorcerers, that enables them to be more competitive where DPS is concerned. Those extra 2 skills are ONLY for Pets. If you don't use Pets, you don't get those extra skills. With a main as a Templar, I also have spells on my bar that don't do DPS, BoL for example and limits my DPS. I do not need to have duplicate spells on each bar though which is where other classes have an advantage over Sorcerers.

With Magelight and Critical Surge, those should take up 2 spots as they help increase your DPS. With having 2 dedicated pet slots outside the main 5 skills, it would still give a Sorcerer the ability to have at least 3 damage spells. That's a lot more balanced than only having 1 damage spell.

This would also help solve the issue with CC as it would give 2 pets to take into dungeons/pvp and keep the mob trash in control.

As a sorc the biggest problem I have with this is you are losing nothing then for using summons. Yes, you might have to recast them if they die, but they provide a dps boost that isn't on a timer, they will switch trgets (all be it a little stupid AI) and takes no loss in time to do so. This was my thoughts for having toggles only needing to take up one spot. You are basically giving sorcs 2-3 extra skills they don't need to maintain mana wise (if they don't die) without taking a dps loss. I Wouldn't mind something being done, but we don't want every sorc running around with summons, which would happen if there was no draw backs.