We brought it down on ourselves!

Audigy

Over the past few weeks, a lot has changed in the ESO universe. Lots of people canceled their subs over the F2P announcement, others might have returned and again others like me just did nothing and gave it some thought while sun bathing.

The first question that I asked myself upon return was quite simple and still required some self critique. What did we do wrong as a community that we deserved such a harsh punishment and the knife in our all backs by ZO?

First I tried to blame us for the lack of support, but then again this forum always had some decent discussions going and a lot of people kept playing even though the client still lacks the multi core threading, while lots of features like Justice, Spellcrafting, new solo zones are still not even close to implementation.

Then again I was looking back at the reasons why so much content didn't come and I found someone responsible for it, us! How often did ZO announce something new and parts of the community had nothing better to do than trashing it.

A good example is the justice system. Right after its announcement several people created threads like "oh no, now I can die - oh no, now the merchant can die...". This caused a huge delay in the justice system, such a big delay that we still wont have the pvp part in 1.6. Its fully understandable to me that players were offended by these forum threads where others denied them their content, so they left.

Another example is the CS. It was supposed to be a fresh start, but a lot of people didn't understand this and demanded a special snowflake touch. Therefore the CS had to be rebalanced and re-tuned so that it was delayed even further while putting new players in such a big disadvantage that they would never pay a sub for outdated content.

There are many more examples to this, but the truth is we as a community have failed as much as ZO did as a company. Our constant fighting over content updates, the constant "no I don't want this guy to have this...., no I don't want pvp since I don't pvp, no I don't want group content as I don't group..., I am subbed since day one so I am special ..." made it impossible for ZO to really develop the game that they once had planned. Besides that we were very hostile towards new gamers or those who might not share the same ideology about MMOs.

If you compare this to for instance the old days at Ultima, then such hostility just didn't exist and because of this that game is still alive and kicking while ESO is just like SWTOR on its way down.

While this may sound harsh to some people at this forum, it is what it is. The inexperience of ZO in regards of MMO design and our own entitlement to have more than everyone else, to be more important than the other gamer ruined ESO so that we all, the gamers, but also the Devs have to touch our own noses here.

We brought this down on ourselves guys, learn from it and be more kind to others in your next MMO. Accept that not all content might be for you, accept that there are group and solo gamers, just like there are pve and pvp players.

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.

Cheers!

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

When you assert personal opinions as facts .. eg. your assertion Justice was delayed due to people complaining about the plans .. and then proceed to argue a point of view based on those baseless assertions .. not a good way to try to kick off a discussion, I would suggest.

On the subject of CS there's a very good reason why ZOS' original ideal of 30 CPs caused an outcry, from many who took the previous "your XP will be tracked" as being true.

Akiho

The game wasn't strong enough in most mmo players mind to pay a monthly sub, and that's why it's going b2p. My opinion at least.

Cogo

@Audigy gets a cookie for this thread. NON TO Matt Firor!

Alphashado

Audigy wrote: »

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.
Cheers!

I've seen you here for a very long time. We have been here posting on this board since the day it was created. Sadly things have changed.

Not many of us old vets believe the game went B2P because of subs. Most of us believe it happened due to consoles and Zenny's greed in relation to console launch. So that left a very bad taste in the mouths of even the most avid supporters. Including myself.

You are right of course in many ways. I look at this forum today and it's worse than I have ever seen it since day one. I was just imagining today what the peeps at ZoS think when they read this and other forums. This is likely what they think: "WTF is wrong with these people? They begged us and demanded a change to the VR system and now they are all going crazy telling us how much they hate the changes".

However, ZoS has done nothing but throw gas on the fire by being so secretive and making comments like this: “Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said ESO’s game director Matt Firor. “We know that Elder Scrolls fans want choice when it comes to how they play and how they pay, and that is what they will get."

The question those of us that have been around for a while asked of course is which fans were you listening to exactly? Because it certainly wasn't all of the loyal subscribers in here.

So now many people have left. A new crowd is moving in. Due to everything that's going on with B2P, the CS, consoles, etc this forum has become toxic. Yes I know they are all toxic, but there was once a time that I proudly labeled this community as one of the most mature and friendly I have ever seen.

Not anymore. There is a changing of the guard. Now, honestly... It's just depressing.

eric22santiago_ESO

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

When you assert personal opinions as facts .. eg. your assertion Justice was delayed due to people complaining about the plans .. and then proceed to argue a point of view based on those baseless assertions .. not a good way to try to kick off a discussion, I would suggest.

On the subject of CS there's a very good reason why ZOS' original ideal of 30 CPs caused an outcry, from many who took the previous "your XP will be tracked" as being true.

Right?! Like where is the op getting all these 'facts' lol

Audigy

Akiho wrote: »

The game wasn't strong enough in most mmo players mind to pay a monthly sub, and that's why it's going b2p. My opinion at least.

Which is mostly due the hostility in our community. We had a good system on release with VR´s, but people didn't like to group even if it was only with passer byes. The whine threads were so big that ZO first removed any challenge from it and secondly they started working on a brand new system, rather than tweaking the old.

We didn't get the promised new solo zone, the spellcrafting system or the pvp system and thief guild - things that were a big point of interest for many gamers who left over time.

In the end our community was split into so many different groups which all tried to get the most attention by the Devs, so that they couldn't design the game they wanted, but rather a special game for each group and this slowed down everything.

I still think, the basic idea´s which the ZO Devs had were great and its incredible sad that they couldn't convince their management of them.

Instead of just designing something and then releasing it, they were re-starting their projects all the time, while working on too many at the same time.

Personally, I wish gamers would just take it more easy. If a feature isn't your thing then just don't use it. But this seems to be too much to ask for as we saw with the Justice System announcement in 2014 and the "but I don't want to pvp" crowd etc.

knaveofengland

I would suggest if eso was active daily on forums and opened threads about all issues it would help .
also give people a say and they will shout ,perhaps all posts before being posted be edited or deleted .

Audigy

Alphashado wrote: »

show previous quotes

Audigy wrote: »

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.
Cheers!

I've seen you here for a very long time. We have been here posting on this board since the day it was created. Sadly things have changed.

Not many of us old vets believe the game went B2P because of subs. Most of us believe it happened due to consoles and Zenny's greed in relation to console launch. So that left a very bad taste in the mouths of even the most avid supporters. Including myself.

You are right of course in many ways. I look at this forum today and it's worse than I have ever seen it since day one. I was just imagining today what the peeps at ZoS think when they read this and other forums. This is likely what they think: "WTF is wrong with these people? They begged us and demanded a change to the VR system and now they are all going crazy telling us how much they hate the changes".

However, ZoS has done nothing but throw gas on the fire by being so secretive and making comments like this: “Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want,” said ESO’s game director Matt Firor. “We know that Elder Scrolls fans want choice when it comes to how they play and how they pay, and that is what they will get."

The question those of us that have been around for a while asked of course is which fans were you listening to exactly? Because it certainly wasn't all of the loyal subscribers in here.

So now many people have left. A new crowd is moving in. Due to everything that's going on with B2P, the CS, consoles, etc this forum has become toxic. Yes I know they are all toxic, but there was once a time that I proudly labeled this community as one of the most mature and friendly I have ever seen.

Not anymore. There is a changing of the guard. Now, honestly... It's just depressing.

Exactly.

They had so many great visions for ESO and during Beta it seemed like those visions were also the visions of the community.

It seemed to be one unity, we all tried our best and accepted others who liked different things than we did.

Upon release however, we got a lot of people in who were less tolerant about the interests of other people. And if I look back at some of my posts from early 2014, then I always tried to remember people about the "hostility" that can come up with too much self focus in games.

A good example was the VR system.

I fully agree it wasn't perfect, but it was something new, different so to speak. Players who saw the story, were able to explore the story of other factions with the same char and a bigger difficulty level. During Beta this was received quite well, I remember myself killing some stuff in hard fights there.

When the VR system was changed the first time, a lot of people lost their game! They lost the fun of actually grouping with others, they lost the challenge and their interest in ESO. Telling them to just fight naked, to no longer group were the "least insulting" comments back then.

Already then I felt our community is about to destroy itself as some of our players didn't care at all about the "WHY" that content was there and for "WHOM" it was.

All they saw was the "I cant do it now, so it must be gone" and so it was gone. But with it, all the players who actually wanted to play that system.

In the end ZO decided to remove the VR system, but even now it wasn't enough as you said yourself. People started to demand a headstart, then the headstart wasn't big enough and then it was still not big enough even with 70 CP...

I don't deny that I also was upset about changes, but we as a community just fought more against each other, than for our game and this F2P is now the result.

That the console release also plays a role is something I wont deny, but for this I don't have the proof, but its indeed very likely due the "sub system for Microsoft and Sony".

Joejudas

Audigy wrote: »

Over the past few weeks, a lot has changed in the ESO universe. Lots of people canceled their subs over the F2P announcement, others might have returned and again others like me just did nothing and gave it some thought while sun bathing.

The first question that I asked myself upon return was quite simple and still required some self critique. What did we do wrong as a community that we deserved such a harsh punishment and the knife in our all backs by ZO?

First I tried to blame us for the lack of support, but then again this forum always had some decent discussions going and a lot of people kept playing even though the client still lacks the multi core threading, while lots of features like Justice, Spellcrafting, new solo zones are still not even close to implementation.

Then again I was looking back at the reasons why so much content didn't come and I found someone responsible for it, us! How often did ZO announce something new and parts of the community had nothing better to do than trashing it.

A good example is the justice system. Right after its announcement several people created threads like "oh no, now I can die - oh no, now the merchant can die...". This caused a huge delay in the justice system, such a big delay that we still wont have the pvp part in 1.6. Its fully understandable to me that players were offended by these forum threads where others denied them their content, so they left.

Another example is the CS. It was supposed to be a fresh start, but a lot of people didn't understand this and demanded a special snowflake touch. Therefore the CS had to be rebalanced and re-tuned so that it was delayed even further while putting new players in such a big disadvantage that they would never pay a sub for outdated content.

There are many more examples to this, but the truth is we as a community have failed as much as ZO did as a company. Our constant fighting over content updates, the constant "no I don't want this guy to have this...., no I don't want pvp since I don't pvp, no I don't want group content as I don't group..., I am subbed since day one so I am special ..." made it impossible for ZO to really develop the game that they once had planned. Besides that we were very hostile towards new gamers or those who might not share the same ideology about MMOs.

If you compare this to for instance the old days at Ultima, then such hostility just didn't exist and because of this that game is still alive and kicking while ESO is just like SWTOR on its way down.

While this may sound harsh to some people at this forum, it is what it is. The inexperience of ZO in regards of MMO design and our own entitlement to have more than everyone else, to be more important than the other gamer ruined ESO so that we all, the gamers, but also the Devs have to touch our own noses here.

We brought this down on ourselves guys, learn from it and be more kind to others in your next MMO. Accept that not all content might be for you, accept that there are group and solo gamers, just like there are pve and pvp players.

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.

Cheers!

i would agree...but i will added that nerfing the character progression for 1.6 pts and then having people tell me and others to just get over it is making more and more of us distance ourselfs from the game.

kijima

How did the "customer" let themselves down again?

I_killed_Vivec

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

When you assert personal opinions as facts .. eg. your assertion Justice was delayed due to people complaining about the plans .. and then proceed to argue a point of view based on those baseless assertions .. not a good way to try to kick off a discussion, I would suggest.

On the subject of CS there's a very good reason why ZOS' original ideal of 30 CPs caused an outcry, from many who took the previous "your XP will be tracked" as being true.

In fact ZOS have said that PvP for the Justice System has been delayed (and might never happen) because of the "balancing" aspects - also known as bully boys handing out "justice" to newbies

Also, the fuss about the issue of CP was again about "balancing". Basically 1.6 on the PC is going to be used to iron out balancing issues for the console release. Initially they said we could have all of our XP converted to CP, including VR14+ XP.

This was shelved, but they needed players to have CP otherwise they wouldn't get the balancing information they need... hence the 30CP across the board. They could have started with everyone getting 0 CP - after all we still have VR - but then they wouldn't get the immediate information on what we do with our points and what balancing issues might arise.

Spellcrafting has been delayed (and might never be implemented) because of "balancing" issues. VR removal also seems to have been put on hold because ZOS went through a major rebalancing act in 1.6 and don't want to do another one soon "for obvious reasons".

These are not issues that people on a forum have caused by quibbling about whether dressing-gowns and sticks should be obligatory for battle...

Spiritreaver_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

Over the past few weeks, a lot has changed in the ESO universe. Lots of people canceled their subs over the F2P announcement, others might have returned and again others like me just did nothing and gave it some thought while sun bathing.

The first question that I asked myself upon return was quite simple and still required some self critique. What did we do wrong as a community that we deserved such a harsh punishment and the knife in our all backs by ZO?

First I tried to blame us for the lack of support, but then again this forum always had some decent discussions going and a lot of people kept playing even though the client still lacks the multi core threading, while lots of features like Justice, Spellcrafting, new solo zones are still not even close to implementation.

Then again I was looking back at the reasons why so much content didn't come and I found someone responsible for it, us! How often did ZO announce something new and parts of the community had nothing better to do than trashing it.

A good example is the justice system. Right after its announcement several people created threads like "oh no, now I can die - oh no, now the merchant can die...". This caused a huge delay in the justice system, such a big delay that we still wont have the pvp part in 1.6. Its fully understandable to me that players were offended by these forum threads where others denied them their content, so they left.

Another example is the CS. It was supposed to be a fresh start, but a lot of people didn't understand this and demanded a special snowflake touch. Therefore the CS had to be rebalanced and re-tuned so that it was delayed even further while putting new players in such a big disadvantage that they would never pay a sub for outdated content.

There are many more examples to this, but the truth is we as a community have failed as much as ZO did as a company. Our constant fighting over content updates, the constant "no I don't want this guy to have this...., no I don't want pvp since I don't pvp, no I don't want group content as I don't group..., I am subbed since day one so I am special ..." made it impossible for ZO to really develop the game that they once had planned. Besides that we were very hostile towards new gamers or those who might not share the same ideology about MMOs.

If you compare this to for instance the old days at Ultima, then such hostility just didn't exist and because of this that game is still alive and kicking while ESO is just like SWTOR on its way down.

While this may sound harsh to some people at this forum, it is what it is. The inexperience of ZO in regards of MMO design and our own entitlement to have more than everyone else, to be more important than the other gamer ruined ESO so that we all, the gamers, but also the Devs have to touch our own noses here.

We brought this down on ourselves guys, learn from it and be more kind to others in your next MMO. Accept that not all content might be for you, accept that there are group and solo gamers, just like there are pve and pvp players.

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.

Cheers!

First off, very good OP. A lot of fair and valid opinions. And i personally agree with your main point...partially .

Gamers usually bring stuff down on themselves. No argument there from me. But ESO is where it is because of more than just the rampant self-centered views of of some of the player(not exempting myself here by any means) or the folks at ZoS trying to placate all the various subsets of their playerbase-again my opinion. People are gonna say 'He needs to take off that foil hat...', granted. But in my gut i feel i am on to something.

I think meddling from ZoS' parent company(Zenimax Media) and its sister company(Bethesda Softworks) was prolly a large contributing factor behind the scenes. Proof? Just my gut...and Pete Hines' smarmy face in that infamous(in my mind anyways) ESO Live where they rolled out the upcoming changes. What the heck was he doing there anyway?

Then you can look back and some of the things ZoS has done since ESO went live. They just kinda smell of Hines, Howard, and that whole crew at Bethesda. The whole vibe(that ESO PC/Mac launch 'til now has been a big paid beta for console launch) that seems to be finally coming to a head, seems like the next step in the way Bethesda has been moving in relation to how it treats its non-console customers for at least a decade now....

Anyways, foil hat coming off. Conspiracy laden rant done.

And again OP, very good thoughts that have some merit.

Grao

@Audigy, are you saying we are to blame for Zenimax's terrible PR department and their inability to manage ESO?

We complained on the forums, we pointed out our concerns, some of them valid, some of them not. I am sorry, but have you ever read through WoW's forum? Or any other MMO's? Game Forums are meant for us, the community, to express our concerns, frustrations and compliments towards the game.

Seriously...

Sindala

I'm afraid to say OP that you are talking shite!.
Every MMO ever in existence has had toxic forums. It comes as normal when you create a game with PvP in it.
PvP will NEVER be balanced, I cannot be done.
Everyone wants to be the best and expects they are, so when they get owned it 'must' be because other person is cheating.

We here in this game did NOTHING to bring on F2P, that was all them. Planned sealed and delivered. This game was intended to be for console and so it shall, the PC version shall wither and die unknown and forgotten by anyone with any brains or sense.

If your still 'team Zos' after the past month or so then you are either :-
a, The biggest fanboi in existence.
b, Never read the forums or anything else.
c, Using mommies credit card.
d, A kiss ass.
e, Just an idiot.

This game is done and is already becoming know as a laughing stock in the industry on how to have everything and still fail hard.

Wolfsspinne

Sindala wrote: »

If your still 'team Zos' after the past month or so then you are either :-
a, The biggest fanboi in existence.
b, Never read the forums or anything else.
c, Using mommies credit card.
d, A kiss ass.
e, Just an idiot.

What do you mean "either", I'm all of it at once.
But maybe it's not the correct oreder.

Kaliki

@Audigy
I think you are taking the forums way too seriously.

You honestly believe that masses of people quit the game because of what is going on here? People who want to interact in a friendly environment do so in-game, within their guild and not here.

Plus, the rebalance of the CS happened before they announced the 30 CP thing. So no correlation there. And do you really think it is too much to ask for gratification for progress that will be deleted (70 CP with no deletion of VR is not what anybody asked for)? Do you think it is right that ZOS constantly announces sth as a new great thing while completely silent about the fact that it is a major screwover?

If ZOS staff care at all about the forum, they have brought the vile atmosphere on themselves. Their latest PR posts have been insulting with their vagueness, saying nothing at all while trying to sell something to us with no valid arguments for it.

But I guess I am asking the wrong person. You would probably take a reset to zero if it was for the good of the game, right?

WhiskyBob

I am 100% positive that going B2P at some point was planned before the game went live. As well as most of the updates and extra content as well as any future update and dlc.

As a players we are nothing more than cattle. When we get our holding pen expanded its not a gesture of good will but a business plan.

AshySamurai

IMO noone can blame players for fails. It's not plyaers fault, it's only ZOS's. And only one who responsable for any desigions is ZOS. It's very comfortable for them to pretend that they listen to players. Remember beta? In the end of each beta weekends I get an email with survey. ZOS collected data to fix and improve the game. And I still get this emails each time after solving issue with CS.

Want to know what players think about your game? Ask players. Ask ALL players. Noone can guarantee that all players will fill out survey, but those who care will do it. Collect all data: how much characters player have, how much is main characters/mules, what class/race/weapon/etc player prefer and why - ZOS can collect ALL information from ALL players who care about game's future. In that case yes, ZOS would have all rights to say that it is players's fault and we don't know what we want. Yes, maybe ZOS read this forum and collect all feedback, but here is minority of ESO population (I don't have any proof, but I don't think that all ESO players are also reads this forum). And sometimes this minority moans very loud.

Sure, you can remember now in-game /feedback, but it working not so good. Maybe it's only me, but even /bug sometimes loading too long and I don't want to fill bug report because other players waiting for me. If it something critical - relog, if not - just ignore. Other reason why this system is not so good - ZOS response. Well, ok, devs are busy and can't response on every bug report/feedback. I'm fine with it. But when you fill multiple bug reports about the same bug over and over and over again, then you come to this forum, see a topic or two about this bug and... it not fixed by next patch. Well, by next few patches.

IMO it's not a problem to fill feedback survey once per 2 weeks or months. But ZOS did not did this. Well, now we have what we have.

Audigy

Grao wrote: »

@Audigy, are you saying we are to blame for Zenimax's terrible PR department and their inability to manage ESO?

We complained on the forums, we pointed out our concerns, some of them valid, some of them not. I am sorry, but have you ever read through WoW's forum? Or any other MMO's? Game Forums are meant for us, the community, to express our concerns, frustrations and compliments towards the game.

Seriously...

As I said,

the community we once had went downhill with every month after release. The mistake of ZO was to actually listen too much to our concerns. They should had just released the justice system with the risk of having a dead banker etc. The community would had found a way to protect them, they always did since I play MMOs.
This is what makes communities, the together rather than the everyone for himself.

Unfortunately did they hold the system back due the concerns of some people in this forum, so that the whole pvp aspect is still not even on the PTS. I am sure ZO lost a lot of potential customers with that, more than they would had lost with a dead banker.

Whatever ZO did was based on feedback and this broke their neck in the end. Its impossible to design a game based purely on forum feedback, as there is no unity here, but a lot of entitlement. What one player wants, the other hates and a third wants something totally different again. Players today don't accept it if a patch isn't purely about them or if someone has a benefit of something which they don't have.

ZO should had sticked to what they wanted to do, tweaks are always easier done once stuff is live and actually in the game. Re-designing whole systems however takes forever, as we see with the CS or Justice.

You are fully right, WOW´s forum has a lot of "whine" threads too. But the point is, Blizz doesn't care about them. They have their own idea about the game and they stick to it. When flying was removed it was a big "no", but now that its gone people still play.

As a gaming company you have to stick to your business plan, as nice it is what ZO did, it wasn't good for the game in the long run.

So to summarize, we are guilty for our entitlement and lack of tolerance, just as ZO is responsible for listening way too much to our concerns, especially in regards of systems that were not even on the PTS or live sever.

Kaliki wrote: »

@Audigy
I think you are taking the forums way too seriously.

You honestly believe that masses of people quit the game because of what is going on here? People who want to interact in a friendly environment do so in-game, within their guild and not here.

Plus, the rebalance of the CS happened before they announced the 30 CP thing. So no correlation there. And do you really think it is too much to ask for gratification for progress that will be deleted (70 CP with no deletion of VR is not what anybody asked for)? Do you think it is right that ZOS constantly announces sth as a new great thing while completely silent about the fact that it is a major screwover?

If ZOS staff care at all about the forum, they have brought the vile atmosphere on themselves. Their latest PR posts have been insulting with their vagueness, saying nothing at all while trying to sell something to us with no valid arguments for it.

But I guess I am asking the wrong person. You would probably take a reset to zero if it was for the good of the game, right?

The forum is what ZO cared too much about. Some of you guys felt ZO didn't communicate enough, but in my opinion they did communicate too much.

Nobody played the first Justice System, yet people already assumed others would kill bankers 24/7 and that they couldn't walk without getting ganked etc.

As another user mentioned, ZO listened and tried to reinvent the wheel with a justice system that has no actual pvp, but still somehow allows it... This just couldn't get well and the result is a only pve system with 1.6.

If I said people left the game or didn't join at all then I am talking about the actual lack of content for these people. ESO was once announced as a big AVA game with pve zones and a huge lore / story.

As a pvp player however, you got nothing of what they promised. AVA is unplayable for many due the poor performance, Justice has not come yet + its stripped of its pvp. That's a pretty poor state for a game that was announced as AVA once.

But its not only the pvp player who left, its also the lack of newbie friendly environment. A lot of Veterans think they need more than a newbie and as much I agree with this, it will drive new players away. I explained this once with the CP system. If a new player has to play several hundred hours without his friends then why should he give the game a try?

If I join a game that friends play then I want to play with them

The same topic could be opened about the concerns of solo gamers in regards of the old VR pre nerf. By removing the challenge, players felt left out and left.

As I said before, you can argue if its good that ZO listened or if its bad. Personally I feel it was the wrong thing to do. They should had released easier new content, than removing the old hard content, just like they could have added strong guards for bankers if they would really be ganked etc.

To me ZO was like an insecure child. They didn't dare releasing their stuff, but only by doing so you can fix it. What ZO tried to do was fixing their new content before it was even out and this delayed the whole development cycle so much.

Stuff must be released and then fixed, but our community was so whiny about every bug and little issue that they probably didn't dare.

Muizer

Audigy wrote: »

We brought this down on ourselves guys, learn from it and be more kind to others in your next MMO. Accept that not all content might be for you, accept that there are group and solo gamers, just like there are pve and pvp players.

Don't be so selfish and only think about your own good, think about the others too because this is what a healthy community does.

Cheers!

Without going into what's bad or good for the game, I really don't think the picture you paint reflects the reality of feedback in game development.
Yes we're being "listened to" by devs, but only within the context of their knowledge of how the game works and their plans on where to take it. Heaven forbid it were otherwise, actually.

Sindala

LOL. Omg thanks for that, I needed a good laugh before I goto work......our fault.....lol....they listen to us.....hahahhhhhaaa

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

Which is mostly due the hostility in our community. We had a good system on release with VR´s, but people didn't like to group even if it was only with passer byes.

VR as initially implemented was a classic 1990s group-or-die move which would have been fine had 1-50 not been presented as quite clearly a soloable game with OPTIONAL group content.

It was to total 180 turn from that to group-or-stop-playing that caused much of the uproar IMO. Even after the mob nerfs soloing VR3 and above becomes an exercise in frustration where most fights take forever in comparison to the 1-50 experience with very little extra chance of dying: the content appeals to those that think taking 1 minute to kill a trash pack instead of 15 seconds make it a challenge.

Lord_Kreegan

Here we go again, blaming the customer for the product...

Did ESO's customers conceptualize the game? No.
Did ESO's customers design the game? No.
Did ESO's customers code the game? No.
Did ESO's customers do the formal testing of the game? No. [Evidently, neither did ZOS.]
Do ESO's customers make the management decisions for the game? No.

Have they ever? No.

Have they influenced the game? Maybe; although I doubt that forum-goers' opinions matter all that much, no matter what their own egos tell them... In any case, even if ZOS was an avid listener to the forum, it's still ZOS making the game decisions... not the customers.

Companies are responsible for their own products. PR teams and marketing departments can't change that. Assign responsibility where it belongs.

Sindala

Let's put this in perspective.
One of the most viewed threads on the forums is the 'Ask us anything with about 23k viewers, the most replies I've ever seen on a thread is about 5k.
This alone put's your topic to shame as Original box sales were around 3million.
Probably around 500-800k still playing the game.....
So if your trying to tell us the a TINY minority of players influences what goes on at ZOS then your smoking something I want some of.
The ONLY thing the forum does is bring to the attention of the Devs their obvious screw-ups so they can tweak them, but we have NO say in what happens to the game or which direction they go.

We can't even influence what is in ESO:live and that is ment to be 'our' show but do they listen and do stuff we actually want? Do the hella like. lol

Zershar_Vemod

We?

You don't speak for me OP.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Here we go again, blaming the customer for the product...

Did ESO's customers conceptualize the game? No.
Did ESO's customers design the game? No.
Did ESO's customers code the game? No.
Did ESO's customers do the formal testing of the game? No. [Evidently, neither did ZOS.]
Do ESO's customers make the management decisions for the game? No.

Have they ever? No.

Have they influenced the game? Maybe.

'Maybe'???

You blame ZOS for everything and point out they, not the players, designed it .. can I remind you VR was in ZOS' own words their "vision", they scrapped it in the face of MASSIVE hostility from the players, and you simply try to brush off players from being part of the problem (to address the OP's point) with a maybe?

I get you're a hater, I don't much liek ZOS myself, but trying to paint it as black-and-white bad developers good players is, frankly, anti-fanboism at its finest.

Minack

You don't get to speak for me, OP. If you want to blame anyone for ESO going B2P you need to look at yourself. People like you are the reason developers continue to shovel sh** in their customers' faces. Repeatedly blaming the customer for ZOS failures is just plain asinine.

I don't know what mental disorder(s) you suffer from but you definitely need to be on meds.

Minack

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Here we go again, blaming the customer for the product...

Did ESO's customers conceptualize the game? No.
Did ESO's customers design the game? No.
Did ESO's customers code the game? No.
Did ESO's customers do the formal testing of the game? No. [Evidently, neither did ZOS.]
Do ESO's customers make the management decisions for the game? No.

Have they ever? No.

Have they influenced the game? Maybe.

'Maybe'???

You blame ZOS for everything and point out they, not the players, designed it .. can I remind you VR was in ZOS' own words their "vision", they scrapped it in the face of MASSIVE hostility from the players, and you simply try to brush off players from being part of the problem (to address the OP's point) with a maybe?

I get you're a hater, I don't much liek ZOS myself, but trying to paint it as black-and-white bad developers good players is, frankly, anti-fanboism at its finest.

ZOS scrapped their "vision" after a significant number of people stopped paying for it. Frankly, I'm not sure I would want to play a game where the developer doesn't listen to its playerbase.

Dave2836

There is no formula for success, but there is a formula for failure: trying to please everybody all the time. The direction of the game has led an interesting path, from bugs and gold spammers to skill and character overhauls and now to the completely revamped reintroduced game.

There is something to be said about evolution, when comparatively some of the fiercest creatures to ever walk the earth evolved into KFC and Popeye's
franchises. The same dwarwinian thinking can be applied here, so the question is:

Which entity will become the chicken, the playerbase or the game?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Dave2836 wrote: »

There is no formula for success, but there is a formula for failure: trying to please everybody all the time.

Indeed, which is why ZOS had to abandon VR, it appealed to a small minority while the majority clearly either stopped playing or quit VR grinds and leveled alts .. and if it was the latter ZOS clearly recognised that was only a short-term thing that would see far more leave a couple or so months later.