Does anyone else realize what tamriel unlimited means?

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

No, the game will not be the same, even if you continue paying a sub.

From what we know from the Reddit AUA, there will be a cash shop with P2W items like skill lines and boosters.
Content will be slowed down and there will be less updates, and the few that there will be will be DLC content.
There will be player segregation, make a friend, want to go in a new zone, he can't because he hasn't paid.

From what we can safely assume from past games, the game will progressively be broken in order to promote the cash shop items, the content will either slow down or PvE DLCs will increase in frequency but will lower in quality.
The community will partly become more toxic and finally, p2w will be increasingly insidious.

The sub won't protect you from all that.

Jennifur_Vultee

Yes, I understand what what Tamriel unlimited means. It means whether or not Matt Firor and Paul Sage lobbied for or against the change to Buy to Play Zenimax tossed them under the bus to be shredded by the players who don't want the change. In the eyes of many players these two were the most visible spokesmen for ESO and now many of the players trust nothing they say. So yeah, they have lost a lot of credibility and respect and probably have reputations with some TES fans now that they'll never fully shake. It must suck to work at Zeminax this week.

Seth_Black

Just wait for 'LF DLC Zone group - PREMIUM PLAYERS ONLY'
Now we will have two groups: F2P players and subs ...we'll see how this works out

stabswithjello

does anyone else remember during beta, the cries for anything but P2P were strong on this forum. ESO wants a monthly sub, what draconian measures give us B2P or go home ZOS this inst WOW and we dont want to pay monthly. fast forward nine months....

Makes no sense to me

I_killed_Vivec

" Do you realize that the game is the EXACT same as it was before if you stay subscribed?"

And for me that EXACT is precisely the problem.

Like many others I'm effectively "on-hold", waiting for 1.6 to come out so that I can start to play with the Champion System and PvE Justice. Other than that there is nothing new, and won't be for quite a while (ZoS have already said no new content until console is stable).

I'm sure a lot of people will be left with nothing to do other than grind for CP.

But it is what it is and at least we can unsub until there is new content

ebunts14_ESO

With the change over, there will be no new content coming with the new game. It will go P2W because it will have to. It wont take much to add stats to the costumes that you will be able to buy in the store.

But in all honesty, it wont be worth buying a subscription after the change over. If DLC's is every 3 months, you spend $45 for the same new DLC that you could have bought for $15. If DLC's is every 4 months then your spending $60 for a DLC that you can just buy for $15. Matt did say they plan to go with pricing as other mmo's and that's the $15 price.

As a subscriber you rent the DLC and as a non-subscriber you buy and keep the DLC. Stop the subscription and you lose the DLC. So what are you really getting for your $15 subscription? A few crowns that you might be able to buy for a couple dollars? And since I could care less for vanity items I wouldn't be spending any crowns.

Zos wanted be different than the other mmo's that is currently available and they was. Now Zos is just another company with just another WoW clone.

Zenimax, it took WoW to get their subscription levels, they didn't get it overnight. You on the other hand just getting started, getting performance better and fixing thousands of bugs. But you want things given to you without earning it. Your such Greedy Ba-t-rds.

goldnugget

"regular updates will slow down"

what regular updates? they added 1 zone in a year and thats it. all this means is that they will have added 1 zone in 2 years.

AshySamurai

goldnugget wrote: »

"regular updates will slow down"

what regular updates? they added 1 zone in a year and thats it. all this means is that they will have added 1 zone in 2 years.

ESO Content updates Timeline

cesmode

I see it only as a positive.

Korah_Eaglecry

Carina wrote: »

mbmcdaniel42_ESO wrote: »

So many of you have dissected the new business model that ZoS had announced for their game. Do you realize that the game is the EXACT same as it was before if you stay subscribed? The elder scrolls online that we know and love despite the issues is getting better. We'll have more choices for mounts, costumes, and maybe even a pet or two. In theory, many more players will join, and I can't see how more people playing this game can make it work. I may be in the minority here, but I was one mad at ZoS for doing this too. However, I believe that more players and growing the game as a good thing. I believe ZoS will keep the cash shop from going p2w. I might be the only one who believes this is a great change for a game that needs to grow. I hope that the reason for such delays on new content is from the console release and business model change. I look forward to the road ahead in the coming year. Sure, there are bad things that come with being B2P. Howeverthat like to point out that being subscription only isn't all cherries and whipped cream either. There are some messed up people in this world, and I can assure you the business model doesn't affect that.

/rantover

I have to agree with you. There seems to be a whole lot of irrational hatred aimed towards this game right now, especially from what I am reading on the forums. Personally, I have a wait-and-see attitude towards it all. The game isn't even a year old. Give it time to evolve. The MMO market is vastly different than it was just a few years ago, and businesses have to adapt to the changing needs. Very few MMO's retain the subscription model now. As long as Zenimax don't make this a P2W game, have regular updates and patches, and listen to constructive feedback, I don't see how the switch to the B2P model is being a bad thing.

I suspect a lot of hatred is coming from two types of players. The ones that have never played an MMO before and cant fathom how this would happen or why. And the player that has come to irrationally hate the F2P/B2P Model as if its at the heart of why companies developing their favorite MMOs got greedy. Ignoring the fact that it was they themselves that gave these companies the idea that they could milk their wallets dry. If they didnt throw money at the screen at every new item rationalizing it as 'its free to play, I need to do everything I can to keep it afloat' then these companies would of had a much harder time milking anyone.

The only way P2W becomes a thing in a game is if the playerbase allows it.

MurkMuffin

Hey guess what everyone, i've been lied to before and will probably happen again. If I judge a product on the caliber of people in lead positions, I most likely would never be able to play a game in my life. That being said, if anything, I can now come and go as I please without worry of paying every month/six months. I like ESO and been playing for awhile now (although I will say that I stopped playing for a bit because I got hooked on hearthstone) I enjoyed the story lines and I think this champion system is worth me dealing with all the bitching and patching to at least check out. I just think some people need to get off their high horse and exercise that delete button if you aren't satisfied with the product. I, quite frankly, don't give a *** if they are dishonest or not, if it bothers me a lot and/or they don't deliver me the content I want, i'll just take my money elsewhere.

However!

If it makes you feel better to keep complaining about all the faults in the game, yet continue to play. Have fun.

Elsonso

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The only way P2W becomes a thing in a game is if the playerbase allows it.

This is why most people assume that ESO will be P2W. The business/finance people will be driving it. The developers, they really don't care as long as they get paid. The visionary people who may have a grand vision for the game may or may not care.

There is really nothing that stands in the way of P2W in any game, except principles.

Korah_Eaglecry

lordrichter wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The only way P2W becomes a thing in a game is if the playerbase allows it.

This is why most people assume that ESO will be P2W. The business/finance people will be driving it. The developers, they really don't care as long as they get paid. The visionary people who may have a grand vision for the game may or may not care.

There is really nothing that stands in the way of P2W in any game, except principles.

Understand that a lot of P2W items make it into the shops because the playerbase lobbied to have it there in the first place.

reften

It's been said 100 times. On the surface, you're right, yes, exact same game.

But if there is stuff you want and it costs more RL $$$ to get, then that is debatable.

And IF there is stuff you can only buy with crowns, that makes your toon more effective (told this isn't the case, but we'll see), then no, it's not the same as to upgrade your character, you'll have to spend even more money.

It's all speculation at this point though. No idea how much stuff will cost.

Sallington

I personally feel that viewing this as a good move is extremely shortsighted.

G0ku

Yea, its exact the same game with the same content since november, and it will stay this way at least til some time after june. Already felt bored by now, announcing there will be no new content for a whole while is the final nail to the coffin for me. But people who will join after the monthly subs dissappear will have fun for sure as everything is new for them.

wiz12268b14_ESO

ESO HAS CONSOLE VERSION

Thats all you need to know. That is the great equalizer. Thats what helped save a complete failure of a game in FFXIV.

As broken and messed up as ESO was it is alot better now and it isnt even close to how bad FFXIV was released after about 2 months of Alpha and Beta testing. 4 months actually but it was only available for live 60 days. So it was shut down for about half its beta time and then released.

ESO has been live twice that long and is clearly a superior game to FFXIV (if you played 1.0)

So people freaking out that it would be the first to improve after going buy to play are jumping the gun.

It is also a game that was meant to be played as a B2P game with DLC. The fact it has switched is almost meaningless since that was the plan from the very start.

I have been critical of the game and the development and a lot of things about it, but right now theyre doing everything they said they would (more or less). At release ESO had more content, quests and maps than pretty much any other MMO at release. It has more now than a lot of games with updates and expansions.

Developers also hold back content and maps and what not for updates or expansions. 1.6 is going to be free and it looks almost like what some games would call an expansion. So that is a lot of stuff added and fixed in this game since Last April.

So what argument can you use? Game has no content? Or they wont release content going forward? If they have held back 10-12 (maybe two years worth of DLCs) items what then? Pissed you have to 'pay extra' for them. Well you dont you will get them wit a sub, just like you do now.

If they release 3 smallish DLCs a year, 1-2 larger DLCs a year and have 2-3 free update/fixes what will have changed from the first 9 months? I would say that is more than you got the first nine months. Of course that might be over optimistic. But anything more than 9 changes of some kind will be right in line with the first year. Which they have right now waiting I would bet.

So thats already in the bank that doesnt count Console money for cash shop money or any other revenue they might get.

Time will tell but this game has at least 2 years worth of no worry time I would guess. But eventually people will spin it out of control like they always do if every DLCs doesnt have a thousand hours of content costs 50 cents and not released every other week.

Sindala

When you start being able to ride Guar mounts and Bear mounts (yes your about to get 2 guar mounts and a bear mount plus god knows what else Lore breaking ***)....Or run around in a flippin wedding dress full armour, yes it stopped being Elder Scrolls and is now just a generic fantasy MMO.

Darkrogue671

The timing of the announcement of the B2P couldn't be any worse for the customers of ESO. First, there was the CP debacle that still has put a craw in the side of a significant number of players. In addition, there is the "tracking" of xp for max vets that apparently never happened. Also, take in account that these same players fear not being able to use their gear they feel they worked so hard to achieve, only to have it become a non-factor or unusable at the time 1.7 rolls out. Now, Zenimax decides to post the announcement of B2P and add all these little "goodies" plus the Crown Store.

Timing is everything. If you don't believe me, why don't you ask Sega? They will be happy to tell you what happened to their gaming systems division and why it doesn't exist anymore. They should have waited after they got the CP and Justice system bugs worked out first. If it's as great as they think it is, those subs they lost in the CP and Justice systems would have been replaced on the new B2P format.

Malpherian

mbmcdaniel42_ESO wrote: »

So many of you have dissected the new business model that ZoS had announced for their game. Do you realize that the game is the EXACT same as it was before if you stay subscribed? The elder scrolls online that we know and love despite the issues is getting better. We'll have more choices for mounts, costumes, and maybe even a pet or two. In theory, many more players will join, and I can't see how more people playing this game can make it work. I may be in the minority here, but I was one mad at ZoS for doing this too. However, I believe that more players and growing the game as a good thing. I believe ZoS will keep the cash shop from going p2w. I might be the only one who believes this is a great change for a game that needs to grow. I hope that the reason for such delays on new content is from the console release and business model change. I look forward to the road ahead in the coming year. Sure, there are bad things that come with being B2P. Howeverthat like to point out that being subscription only isn't all cherries and whipped cream either. There are some messed up people in this world, and I can assure you the business model doesn't affect that.

/rantover

We are all well aware that the game itself is not changing,

Other then:

Updates being slowed down.
Not as much content being added.
Etc

The game still isn't even finished with half worked systems in place, and major issues which still need fixing. If the game releases to console in it's current state it will fail, just like it failed on Pc, at a minimum they need to get the Spellcrafting, and PvP side of the justice system in, with the rest of the balance issues and the Dark Brotherhood and TG factions.

THEN it will be read for console release. And succeed here on Pc as a B2P. Any other course will lead to failure.

I_killed_Vivec

Sindala wrote: »

When you start being able to ride Guar mounts and Bear mounts (yes your about to get 2 guar mounts and a bear mount plus god knows what else Lore breaking ***)....Or run around in a flippin wedding dress full armour, yes it stopped being Elder Scrolls and is now just a generic fantasy MMO.

I thought people were joking when I first saw mention of wedding dresses.

Then I saw it for myself on Reddit

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

The timing of the announcement of the B2P couldn't be any worse for the customers of ESO. First, there was the CP debacle that still has put a craw in the side of a significant number of players. In addition, there is the "tracking" of xp for max vets that apparently never happened. Also, take in account that these same players fear not being able to use their gear they feel they worked so hard to achieve, only to have it become a non-factor or unusable at the time 1.7 rolls out. Now, Zenimax decides to post the announcement of B2P and add all these little "goodies" plus the Crown Store.

Timing is everything. If you don't believe me, why don't you ask Sega? They will be happy to tell you what happened to their gaming systems division and why it doesn't exist anymore. They should have waited after they got the CP and Justice system bugs worked out first. If it's as great as they think it is, those subs they lost in the CP and Justice systems would have been replaced on the new B2P format.

Agreed. While we don't have access to any numbers, it definitely felt like the game was turning around since 1.5/the holidays, and picking up many new and returning players. 1.6 has loads of promise as well, they themselves called it ESO2.0, which was poised to bring in even more people and possibly prompt some new professional reviews of the game. But, it's pretty obvious now that the B2P move has been in the works for several months, so the decision was already made before any of this. I never doubted this game could be the "premium" AAA subscription-based game it was announced as, but that *** doesn't happen overnight, especially in the current MMO market and given the bad rep it got from launch (and from launching prematurely). They must have been losing too much money to continue playing the "wait and see" game though, but they should have anticipated these kinds of potential early losses and instead, with 1.6 and 1.7, attempted to double-down on their original strategy of offering the next big premium sub-based MMO.

Dave2836

If the consensus believes the end of days is upon us, then lets not regret the next 50 days of normalcy we have left and play how we want to.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Pendrillion wrote: »

I agree. What I find dubious though is the intransparency how changes were announced and that they promised something the one way and didn't live up to those promises, and tryed to cover their tracks instead of just standing up and saying: "Damn folks it didn't turn out how we have planned. Bummer. But we offer you some new incentive. Appologies!"

Instead they kind of blamed it on us players by saying: "It was what YOU wanted!" They really tried to be upbeat about something that was visibly sticking down in their own throats.

Other than that you are absolutely right!

It doesn't change much. Except that the pace plans about new Zones has been postponed. That is what disappointed me the most. But I still love the game.

Pete Hines should really think about this as a PR disaster. It could have been handled better, and without that much loss of credibility and face. Because as customer, this is what makes me stick to a product they are selling. Credibility. And the thought that the Company produces FOR their customers. I refuse to be just a piece of demographic analysis, to be cashed in.

Also possible that I am old fashioned, uninformed and not on the height of business in the 21st Century...

Also admittably I still am playing.

Plan to go back and read the rest of the comments in this thread, but the above post nails a point and the bold section leads us to a question that really needs answering: How much Bethesda meddling has brought us to this point?

Malpherian

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Pendrillion wrote: »

I agree. What I find dubious though is the intransparency how changes were announced and that they promised something the one way and didn't live up to those promises, and tryed to cover their tracks instead of just standing up and saying: "Damn folks it didn't turn out how we have planned. Bummer. But we offer you some new incentive. Appologies!"

Instead they kind of blamed it on us players by saying: "It was what YOU wanted!" They really tried to be upbeat about something that was visibly sticking down in their own throats.

Other than that you are absolutely right!

It doesn't change much. Except that the pace plans about new Zones has been postponed. That is what disappointed me the most. But I still love the game.

Pete Hines should really think about this as a PR disaster. It could have been handled better, and without that much loss of credibility and face. Because as customer, this is what makes me stick to a product they are selling. Credibility. And the thought that the Company produces FOR their customers. I refuse to be just a piece of demographic analysis, to be cashed in.

Also possible that I am old fashioned, uninformed and not on the height of business in the 21st Century...

Also admittably I still am playing.

Plan to go back and read the rest of the comments in this thread, but the above post nails a point and the bold section leads us to a question that really needs answering: How much Bethesda meddling has brought us to this point?

Honestly I think it's the "lack" of Bethesda Meddling that has brought us here.

WatchYourSixx

Well, I'm not personally in the ZoS offices or have any relation with them other than to play their game. However, I would take a guess that since ZoS is not a completely separate corporation from ZeniMax Media, that ZeniMax Media has a huge say so in what happens at the corporate level at ZoS. ZeniMax Media is the same company that owns Bethesda.

Bouvin

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

No, the game will not be the same, even if you continue paying a sub.

From what we know from the Reddit AUA, there will be a cash shop with P2W items like skill lines and boosters.
Content will be slowed down and there will be less updates, and the few that there will be will be DLC content.
There will be player segregation, make a friend, want to go in a new zone, he can't because he hasn't paid.

From what we can safely assume from past games, the game will progressively be broken in order to promote the cash shop items, the content will either slow down or PvE DLCs will increase in frequency but will lower in quality.
The community will partly become more toxic and finally, p2w will be increasingly insidious.

The sub won't protect you from all that.

And it will remain exactly the same after 1.6 for a very long time.

They've already announced that content updates will be slower in 2015 than 2014.

They've already announced no new updated between 1.7 and Tamriel Unlimited.

So ya, it'll be the same. But the problem with that is people were happy to HAND ZOS $15 a month subscriptions as long as it meant new content on a regular basis.

Now people won't be handing ZOS $15 a month, and will eventually get bored and leave. That's the problem.

miahq

If people are so openly skeptical it's because of the past history of games that have gone b2p and what happened to them, it's not so eso specific.

With eso though, frankly this game was disastrous even with the monthly sub, does anyone really think all the problems are going to fix themselves once it goes b2p? If anything, patches and updates are likely going to come much slower than they already have.

That's the biggest reason they're doing this, if we're being honest. I mean look at the pvp servers. They drastically cut both the number of campaigns and the pop cap on each one, and still couldn't max out more than a single campaign even during peek hours. That doesn't say much for the player base they've managed to attract.

It's not just because it was so bugged, many of the actual game play elements seemed rushed and thrown together, or poorly thought out. And their response to those problems has been less than enthusiastic. Going b2p is basically going to mean a lot of that crap goes unfixed, all in the hopes of attracting more console players.

As far as b2win, considering they'll still have a sub option that offers unique bonuses, along with whatever you find in the cash shop, it sounds like they're already going that direction.

Though frankly I think most people saw that part coming. What is infuriating is seeing Matt Firor say, "Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want," because that is complete and utter BS. They did this because hey rushed out a pretty crappy game that shed subs like crazy and now they want to try and capitalize on the console market as much as possible. That's basically it.

Tapio75

correction, it is still same game until the change to free to play

After that it slowly starts to change towards this cash shop business model wwhere everything slows down exept things that come to store.

And after the change, you will no longer get stuff for your subscription that should have been on the game for all. You know the fluff that makes the game fun and gives you ability to be something else than performance tool for MMO player, if even that.

Sylvyr

BBSooner wrote: »

mbmcdaniel42_ESO wrote: »

Do you realize that the game is the EXACT same as it was before if you stay subscribed?

During a subscription only game: Developer focus is exclusively on trying to justify a sub to customers - their focus is on fun/diverse/interesting/long lasting content.

During a B2P/F2P game: Developer focus is split between keeping the subs of the "super-fans", and creating cash store content that will tempt players to splurge. Fun/diverse/interesting/long lasting content is no longer the single focus - instead partially or (in some long lasting MMOs cases sadly) majorly focusing what they can sell in the store.


The concern is not if the game will be different on Day 1 of B2P. There is concern for the long term toll a cash shop will have on the game.

ESO Live Tamriel Unlimited

@BBSooner
At the point where Matt Firor goes on about how the game has soooo much content and 100s of hours of gameplay and now it's time to let the game breathe.... Would seem indicative and back up the crossover point you are mentioning. Good vid to watch if you haven't seen it, seems to fall right into place, including cracks of bitterness from the PR man Mr Hines, discomfort from Mr Firor, and Mr. Sage was just kinda having fun with it.

And remember, the community asked for this.