The future of Add-ons

Heishi

Ourorboros wrote: »

Aenra wrote: »

a huge, huge thanks (again!) to @Garkin for all the work he has put out thus far, for all the help he has given to so many people, myself included god help him, for all the addons i wouldn't have been able to continue to use without him

(am probably being unfair by not mentioning others as well, but i believe Garkin sure has earned it)

i also feel huge gratitude is due to @Garkin. Also to @Wyykd and @katkat42‌ among others I am familiar with. There are many others whose names I don't know, but have contributed greatly with awesome add-ons. Hope you guys will be sticking around, at least until my sub runs out .

Yes! big cheers to them and hoping they stick around.

Wykkyd

Here's what I know so far, unless something has changed and I just missed the announcement:

Console Players & PC Players won't be on the same mega-server.
This means whether or not the PC crowd has access to "ADD ONS" is irrelevant to the console gaming crowd, as it doesn't impact the way that they play.

ADD ONS are not MODS. Mods by definition MODIFY the game and its code to produce other-than-developed results. The entire scenario around Skyrim and Mods is not comparable in any way to what is going on with ESO, or any other MMO. You can't MOD an MMO. Mods change the way Skyrim plays and drives continued replay-ability in an otherwise simple game. Vanilla Skyrim doesn't carry a lot of replay value in and of itself. The MOD community made that game far more successful on PC than it would have been otherwise. Add-ons in ESO don't have that same impact and never can.

I personally can't stand to play ESO without add-ons. That's why I write them, after all. I write add-ons that address what I see as deficiencies in the UI customization options available to us by default. Many players have spoken with their downloads on ESOUI and shown that they agree with me. For easily thousands of players this game just isn't the same without the works of people like myself, @Garkin (I use his add-ons extensively) and @katkat42, etc. I could easily claim that to be TENS of thousands of players without much of a stretch, considering several of us authors have MILLIONS of downloads at this point.


F2P & B2P games tend to attract a toxic, entitled, instant-gratification playerbase that is very unstable (coming and going in mass waves, constantly de-stabilizing the playerbase) and usually very distasteful to communicate with, to those of us who are more "purist" and "hardcore". The allure of big payouts and cash-sucking options is too much for a business to overlook, though, so I'm honestly more surprised that it took them this long to flip the switch. I expected them to go B2P over 6+ months ago, and many of us were making that prediction before the game even launched. It's just the way things are.


Reality, from my perspective, is that add-on development is driven by two very simple things. 1: an author's interest and motivation in the game, 2: community support for an author that drives him/her to develop even when they've lost interest/motivation in the game.

When an author has both #1 and #2 you see them crank out update after update filled with enhancements. Keep in mind, they do it for free (for donations, but those are rare). So the only reward they get for doing the work is self satisfaction and the occasional thank-you from a fan/user.

Take #1 or #2 away and you see the updates slow to a crawl as the author enters simple "maintenance mode", which is where many of us are at the moment. Take both away and you lose the author. Or in some cases, #2 just isn't enough to keep the author around and they leave anyway.

With the advent of B2P I fully expect to some players to return. I also fully expect some players to leave because they hate B2P. And I expect even more to leave and swap over to Console play, further dwindling the PC playerbase. Obviously there will still be game sales and new players as time goes on but... the real threat here is that we don't know what the real balance of inbound/outbound players will be ahead of time, so we can't predict how healthy this PC community will be when everything comes out in the wash.

There's also that toxic community threat looming on the horizon. How much of that will seep into the PC community/world-server? The combination of the answer to those two scenarios will dictate how many of us addon authors stick around just as much as added playable content will. If I have no community worth building addons for, why would I stick around to do so?


None of us have crystal balls. We can't legitimately predict where this will go. ZOS made a business decision and if I had to guess I'd say it was probably driven by investors more-so than it was ZOS's immediate staff.

I can only compare this scenario to things I've seen in the past. While going B2P probably saved/made some money for Trion Worlds, the community in Rift became so undesirable that I walked away from the game with over $280 still invested in it from pre-purchased subscription time and account add-ons (mounts, etc) that I'd already purchased. And that was after dedicating my time to it as a guild officer, raid leader, class leader, community guide writer and add-on developer for years.


When it comes to an MMO, community is everything. It trumps the game. It trumps mechanics. A solid community can make a completely horrible game a joy to play. A horrible community can destroy a stellar game.

Where will ESO land when the dust settles? I have no clue, but I'm here to find out.

Ahdora

@Wykkyd Well said. I share your reservations about the community going forward, though I am not sticking it out to find out one way or the other. It was too painful to witness the slow decline in other MMOs that I once loved.

I hope that things work out quite well for everyone, all around. Your addons are some of the best available, and many players would sorely feel the loss if they eventually became out of date and unusable. That being said, I understand that it is a labor of love and if the love ends up not being there anymore, you'd need to move on.

Bouvin

Ourorboros wrote: »

For those that use them, and I think that's the majority of players, add-ons have vastly improved the quality of game play since the beta days. Unfortunately, add-ons and their authors get no love from ZOS, and little enough from us. I'm reluctant to think what will happen if the new B2P model results in add-on authors leaving the game, and their add-ons as well. We have already lost some favorites, like CraftStore. I'm expecting to see some UI changes in 1.6 and/or 1.7, based on the Twitch interview. But ZOS has shown little interest in changing the UI or supporting add-ons. I don't see that changing, especially with consoles in the mix. I know people are emotional about B2P and the Crown Shop, but what do you think about losing your favorite add-ons along with this? It could happen. I don't know if this new model would work for me if I have to use the default UI.

And it's only going to get worse as more add-on authors stop playing because they don't want F2P/B2P.

Ourorboros

@Wykkyd, thanks for chiming in on this thread. Your comments hold a lot of weight as one of the preeminent add-on authors, and were insightful. Glad to hear you will at least take the time to see how the change affects the game, and hope your attitude is catching.

ps, sorry about misspelling your name in my post, went back and corrected it.

Heishi

@Wykkyd‌ , nicely put. Thank you for coming to share your insights and opinions.

katkat42

Ourorboros wrote: »

Aenra wrote: »

a huge, huge thanks (again!) to @Garkin for all the work he has put out thus far, for all the help he has given to so many people, myself included god help him, for all the addons i wouldn't have been able to continue to use without him

(am probably being unfair by not mentioning others as well, but i believe Garkin sure has earned it)

i also feel huge gratitude is due to @Garkin.

Absolutely! I'll add my voice to this chorus.

Also to @Wykkyd and @katkat42‌ among others I am familiar with. There are many others whose names I don't know, but have contributed greatly with awesome add-ons. Hope you guys will be sticking around, at least until my sub runs out .

D'aww, thanks! There's also @Randactyl‌ , who took over the other half of @ingeniousclown 's addons when clown left. @Harven‌ has written quite a few useful addons. Also @Atropos‌ (FTC) and @Fyrakin‌ (mini-map) deserve call-outs for quality over quantity.

Ourorboros

katkat42 wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

Aenra wrote: »

a huge, huge thanks (again!) to @Garkin for all the work he has put out thus far, for all the help he has given to so many people, myself included god help him, for all the addons i wouldn't have been able to continue to use without him

(am probably being unfair by not mentioning others as well, but i believe Garkin sure has earned it)

i also feel huge gratitude is due to @Garkin.

Absolutely! I'll add my voice to this chorus.

Also to @Wykkyd and @katkat42‌ among others I am familiar with. There are many others whose names I don't know, but have contributed greatly with awesome add-ons. Hope you guys will be sticking around, at least until my sub runs out .

D'aww, thanks! There's also @Randactyl‌ , who took over the other half of @ingeniousclown 's addons when clown left. @Harven‌ has written quite a few useful addons. Also @Atropos‌ (FTC) and @Fyrakin‌ (mini-map) deserve call-outs for quality over quantity.

Thanks for calling out some more great add-on authors. You've collectively made ESO a lot more fun for me, for sure. I bow before you!

Nyghthowler

To all the add-on authors, you have my sincere gratitude and appreciation for all the work you do creating and updating the add-ons you share with us!

/bow
Thank you.

Pausekey

I couldn't be more thankful of the wonderful job the add-on authors have done. Your work is amazing and I don't think I could continue playing this game without those mods.

I know it would probably never happen, but if ZOS were to get their ___ together and realize how valuable the authors are to the community it would be nice. I think offering the add-ons in the store would be a fantastic idea, and I would happily blow my entire 9000 or whatever crown payout on those add-ons. With the understanding that the pay would be making its way to the authors in some way of course.

katkat42

Wykkyd wrote: »

I personally can't stand to play ESO without add-ons. That's why I write them, after all. I write add-ons that address what I see as deficiencies in the UI customization options available to us by default.

Yep, this is why I started writing add-ons too. I enjoy the story, but little details would annoy me. So, I'd see if anyone had fixed them. If not, I'd fix them myself. Eventually, people who had fixed things for me left the game, and I didn't want their fix to go away, so I offered to support their add-ons. I think I've mentioned before, I don't support anything I don't use.

I could probably play the game without add-ons, but I would spend more time being annoyed and less time pondering the moral dilemma a quest has presented.

F2P & B2P games tend to attract a toxic, entitled, instant-gratification playerbase that is very unstable (coming and going in mass waves, constantly de-stabilizing the playerbase) and usually very distasteful to communicate with, to those of us who are more "purist" and "hardcore".

This is one of the things I fear. Different authors have different thresholds for these people. Users being "very distasteful to communicate with" has already driven one author away. I have a high tolerance for stupidity, but little patience for malice; I cannot speak for others in this regard.

Reality, from my perspective, is that add-on development is driven by two very simple things. 1: an author's interest and motivation in the game, 2: community support for an author that drives him/her to develop even when they've lost interest/motivation in the game.

When an author has both #1 and #2 you see them crank out update after update filled with enhancements. Keep in mind, they do it for free (for donations, but those are rare). So the only reward they get for doing the work is self satisfaction and the occasional thank-you from a fan/user.

Well-said, sir. The proportion between them vary by author, but I agree that these two factors are what drive add-on development.

Take #1 or #2 away and you see the updates slow to a crawl as the author enters simple "maintenance mode", which is where many of us are at the moment. Take both away and you lose the author. Or in some cases, #2 just isn't enough to keep the author around and they leave anyway.

I'm probably one of the latter. I'm just not highly community-driven. I do this for my own fun. If it starts feeling like an unpaid job, I'll find something better to do with my time. (Dreamfall Chapters is out. I still haven't even purchased Dragon Age 3 yet. And I can always go back to Skyrim...)

None of us have crystal balls. We can't legitimately predict where this will go.

This wait-and-see attitude seems to be the prevailing one over on ESOUI.

ZOS made a business decision and if I had to guess I'd say it was probably driven by investors more-so than it was ZOS's immediate staff.

I'd put many, many septims on this being 100% financial decision, 0% creative decision.

Where will ESO land when the dust settles? I have no clue, but I'm here to find out.

See ya there!

Elsonso

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Add-Ons/UI Changes that ZoS needs to implement themselves:

1) A built in DPS meter. <-- No

2) Different inventory display options.

3) Optional Mini-Map for those that really want it.

4) CraftStore/Guild Trader price listings, things of that nature. <-- No

5) Better toolbars for tracking Horse Feedings, EXP, numbers on life bars, player information being displayed when looking at them, basically ggFrames or Azura or FTC but built in.

If ZoS does not want to do this *** themselves, then they need to stop peeing all over the Mod Writers and hire them full time for their work, really that simple.

Also I really like the proposed idea of having Mod Makers sell their goods through the Crown Shop. THAT would be an incentive to both make mods and sub for Crowns, without it being Pay To Win.

I would prefer that ZOS stay as far away from add-ons and add-on writers as humanly possible. And then a few steps further. I don't want add-ons in the Crown Store, and until now I don't think anyone had suggested that.

ZOS might like this idea. Instead of a free user add-on to add a minimap, you might get one from ZOS for Crowns. Instead of an add-on like Shopkeeper, ZOS writes their own Shopkeeper add-on and sells it to you.

At that point, add-on authors are competing with ZOS, and I am certain that is against TOS, or will be, and the add-on community does a Tidy Bowl Man imitation.

MissBizz

I'm sure the second I wandered away from the starting city I instantly exited the game and started my search for add-ons, a map to be exact. A toolbar that gave me all be toon/bag/gold info also caught my eye. I am extremely grateful these wonderful authors have created these addons and allow us to use them. I also appreciate the authors that may not create, but choose to maintain addons once the original author has left. I have since added quite a grand collection of addons to my game (different toons have different needs) and appreciate them all. Some I could do without but love the ease they add to the game, others I'm afraid I just won't be able to enjoy the game without.

A huge thank you to all the add-on authors out there!

Cyhawk

Razzak wrote: »

Imagine how console crowd will react when they learn we get to play with add-ons and they can't. What will ZOS do?

Frankly, I don't think anyone cares about console peasants.

Heishi

Thanks for joining in the coversation @katkat42‌ It's good to get multiple perspectives on it

ashlee17

Important topic. Support for Add-on developers should be on the short list of concerns. Zos is getting free content from them that I would hazard 90% of the population use. Zos help them do your job please! (They are better at it then you )

On a personal note, thank you to all the add on creators who give up their free time to make life better for everyone. Tamriel is lucky to have you.

Ourorboros

Cyhawk wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Imagine how console crowd will react when they learn we get to play with add-ons and they can't. What will ZOS do?

Frankly, I don't think anyone cares about console peasants.

They get Voice and Controllers. We get Add-ons. Still a little hard to see how the scales balance on this. Keep in mind, add-ons come with their own set of issues, awesome as they are.

Elsonso

I want Voice on PC. I wonder how many Crowns that will be.

Ourorboros

There has been some great feedback here, with a lot of insight into add-ons, and a huge show of support for add-ons and their authors. Thanks to everyone who kicked in their 2 cents. I started the thread concerned about the continued presence of add-ons in the face of the news from ZOS. As we sail into uncharted waters in the upcoming months, at least it's knowing many of our favorite add-ons will be there too.

Fyrakin

What I understand from the UI evolution towars consoles is that API will adapt to support both UI modes. There might be need to tweak add-ons to support consoles, but unless some API functionality is removed or changed, there is no need to worry about existing add-ons.

As for upcomming payment model changes - I think this will be a great opportunity to attract some add-on authors who allready had the game but didn't wat to continnue subscritions for various reasons.

Soulshine

Considering the inside level of support from this company that one particular modder I know is getting I would say you don't have too much to worry about all mods just vanishing. Some yes, but not all.