UI: Character Movement

Shadowshire

Enodoc wrote: »

Consider it this way; movement is based on the way the camera is facing, not the way the character is facing.
Since you have to turn the camera to aim, the direction the character is facing is largely irrelevant except in RP situations.

From what everyone else has told me so far, as well as my own observations, the effect of a movement direction key depends upon two things: (1) whether the player is using 1st-person view or 3rd-person view, and (2) which specific key the player uses.

As I stated in the OP, in 3rd-person view, when I press <D> the character turns to (face) the right. If I press <D> again, the character moves to the right across my field of view, instead of turning to (face) right. If the character turned to face right again, then he would be facing backward, i.e., toward my point-of-view (the location of the "camera").

In 3rd-person view the location of the camera does not change when the direction that the character faces changes. I must use the mouse to change the direction the camera points to match the direction that the character is facing if I want to use <D> to turn the character again,i.e., to make an "about face".

On the other hand, if the character is facing to the right from my point-of-view, and I press <W> then he will turn to face the same direction in which the camera is pointing and subsequently move "forward" in that direction.

In other words, the character moves along the axis of the direction that the camera is pointing. Turning the character to face left or right does not change that direction. Again, attempting to turn the character in the same direction twice will not cause him to face the camera, but move to the left/right of the player's field of view instead.

As to 1st-person view, I do not have enough experience with TESO yet to know whether the character will turn to face right when I press <D> then turn again if I press <D>. From what some have implied, he might "side-step" in that direction instead, and I must use the mouse to change the direction that he faces. If such is the case, then that will be no less clumsy than using one hand on the keyboard and another on the mouse.

Shadowshire

Aaron0887 wrote: »

OP, from what I've read I would say that it's your expectation of what the controls should be that's flawed, not the game itself. ESO has an action based combat system, you can't just stand on one spot and press buttons like in WoW, you should pretty much be moving all the time to dodge, block and line up your abilities.

Umm... I have not characterized TESO as flawed so much as doing things that I do not expect it to do (or want it to do), and that what it does is largely undocumented.

As to standing in one spot in WoW, that began changing in Mists of Pandaria and, I would suppose, movement during combat has become essential in Warlords of Draenor. Movement has always been necessary during PvP fights, regardless, and spell-casters must learn how to "kite" a melee-fighter opponent -- including some NPCs as well as PCs -- if they want to survive. Most players use the mouse to move their character and assign keystroke-macros to some of the buttons for the more complex moves. There is plenty of "action" in any WoW dungeon or raid to suit anyone who is not a Red Bull or methedrine addict.

There is one requirement for melee-range weapons in WoW that might not apply to TESO. That is what I was referring to in my remarks about positioning my character for an attack against an NPC(s).

Namely (at least in WoW), the character must "face" the target that they attack. If the character's "line of sight" in the direction they face is more than ~ 60 degrees from the center point of the target's location, then the attack fails and the software displays an error message.

On the other hand, after an NPC or an opposing player's character is targeted, usually a spell can be cast by a character regardless of the direction in which they are facing, even if the target is behind them. So an opponent cannot move "out of sight" in order to avoid a spell during it's cast-time and will be hit when it casts even if there are obstacles (e.g., a wall) between the caster and the target at that time. If the target does not interrupt the cast, then they can usually avoid it instead only by moving out of range from the caster before it casts.

In any case, I cannot target what I cannot see, so I must change the direction that the camera points regardless of the direction that the character faces when an opponent is not in view. My complaint is that doing so has been more difficult in TESO than it would be if the camera would automatically point in the direction that the character faces -- even more so if I must also turn the character to face the target in order to defend or counterattack.

nerevarine1138

OP, you seem to have missed the point made much earlier in the thread: none of your problems exist when you are in combat. When your weapons are drawn, you will stay facing the way that you have the camera oriented, and the ASD keys will strafe or backpedal in relation to that.

Circuitous

Shadowshire wrote: »

As I stated in the OP, in 3rd-person view, when I press <D> the character turns to (face) the right. If I press <D> again, the character moves to the right across my field of view, instead of turning to (face) right. If the character turned to face right again, then he would be facing backward, i.e., toward my point-of-view (the location of the "camera").

In 3rd-person view the location of the camera does not change when the direction that the character faces changes. I must use the mouse to change the direction the camera points to match the direction that the character is facing if I want to use <D> to turn the character again,i.e., to make an "about face".

On the other hand, if the character is facing to the right from my point-of-view, and I press <W> then he will turn to face the same direction in which the camera is pointing and subsequently move "forward" in that direction.

In other words, the character moves along the axis of the direction that the camera is pointing. Turning the character to face left or right does not change that direction. Again, attempting to turn the character in the same direction twice will not cause him to face the camera, but move to the left/right of the player's field of view instead.

When you press D, you are not initiating a turn. You are instructing the character to move to the right with regards to your camera view. Without a weapon drawn, your character will turn in that direction and begin moving immediately. This is exactly the same behavior as you found pressing W: they turn to that direction, then move in that direction immediately.

A and D are not turn buttons. They are not intended to cause you to turn at a 90-degree angle. They are not intended to move the camera. Ignore the animations and treat A and D as strafe buttons, because that's exactly what they are, even though your character turns to run that direction if you don't have your weapon out.

ESO expects you to play with one hand on the keyboard and one hand on the mouse. It is piloted in much the same way a first-person shooter is, at all times.

Aaron0887

Shadowshire wrote: »

[Umm... I have not characterized TESO as flawed so much as doing things that I do not expect it to do (or want it to do), and that what it does is largely undocumented.

So my point still stands, your expectations are flawed. You cannot expect a game with a completely different movement and combat system to change to suit you.

Enodoc

Shadowshire wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Consider it this way; movement is based on the way the camera is facing, not the way the character is facing.
Since you have to turn the camera to aim, the direction the character is facing is largely irrelevant except in RP situations.

[...]
In other words, the character moves along the axis of the direction that the camera is pointing. Turning the character to face left or right does not change that direction.
[...]

That's what I said.

Shadowshire wrote: »

In any case, I cannot target what I cannot see, so I must change the direction that the camera points regardless of the direction that the character faces when an opponent is not in view. My complaint is that doing so has been more difficult in TESO than it would be if the camera would automatically point in the direction that the character faces -- even more so if I must also turn the character to face the target in order to defend or counterattack.

I actually need to check this, I'm not sure whether you need to turn the character to defend or counter, or whether attacking an enemy in the direction you're aiming (the camera) turns the character for you.

Shadowshire

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

OP, you seem to have missed the point made much earlier in the thread: none of your problems exist when you are in combat. When your weapons are drawn, you will stay facing the way that you have the camera oriented, and the ASD keys will strafe or backpedal in relation to that.

When did I ever say that the problem I described in the OP occurs during combat? But, yes, problems that I encountered moving my character during combat existed largely because I had not learned how the software behaves with regard to moving the character (the documentation is not all that complete).

You probably don't recognize them because what you learned to do to avoid them have become ingrained habits.

Indeed, the change during combat of the result of using keys <D> and <A> from (1) turning the facing of the character to, (2) moving the character without changing the facing, is a problem when you don't know that it is going to do that. It is also a problem when that is not what you want to do.

As someone has disclosed, in order to turn the character's facing during combat, I must use the mouse. I am not looking forward to that, believe me.

Gix

In 3rd person, all character movement are relative to the camera as opposed to being relative to the character. That's to be expected. You want your character to go "to the left" instead of "to his/her left".

It's been like this since Super Mario Bros.

What would facilitate the OP's problem would be a lock-on feature that makes the camera automatically follow your target. You'd still go "to the left", however.

Shadowshire

Aaron0887 wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

[Umm... I have not characterized TESO as flawed so much as doing things that I do not expect it to do (or want it to do), and that what it does is largely undocumented.

So my point still stands, your expectations are flawed. You cannot expect a game with a completely different movement and combat system to change to suit you.

I posted the OP to ask for advice and assistance in leaning how to move the character. What are you contrbuting to this discussion? Evidently you did not read beyond the first line of the message from which you quoted it, because you have some assinine "point" to prove that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that I have written. Please don't go away mad, just go away.

Welka

I would absolutely hate to play the way the OP wish it to work. I know it would only be a matter of getting used to but the actual way is what I've always known and what feels right.
And I don't understand the comparison with Skyrim. The OP wishes that ESO were a bit more like SKYRIM but it moved exaxtly the same way so I'm confused

Lord_Kreegan

Press your "W" key and then simultaneously press either your "A" or "D" key.

There's your strafe.

Shadowshire

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Press your "W" key and then simultaneously press either your "A" or "D" key.

There's your strafe.

That's interesting! Thank-you for letting me know. I have not seen that documented anywhere, not even the New Player Guide that one of the staff posted on one of these categories (maybe this one). ......

UrQuan

Shadowshire wrote: »

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Press your "W" key and then simultaneously press either your "A" or "D" key.

There's your strafe.

That's interesting! Thank-you for letting me know. I have not seen that documented anywhere, not even the New Player Guide that one of the staff posted on one of these categories (maybe this one). ......

That's because it's not really accurate. If you're pressing W and A or W and D at the same time you're going to be moving diagonally. A and D are the strafe keys, period. The only reason you're confused is because when your weapon isn't drawn the animation for the strafe shows your character turning in the direction you're strafing. That's purely cosmetic. As far as the game mechanics are concerned you're still facing the same direction, and you have not turned. You turn using the mouse. You move forwards, backwards, or strafe using WASD.

Antiquity

0.o I'm not quite following, and don't really understand the problem. But for what it's worth when I'm not in combat, I just hold down W and use mouse movement to change my direction.

I can't recall the last PC game I played in 3rd person that wasn't set up in this manner. It feels super fluid to me, and I would have been confused had it been set up differently.

Best of luck getting it set up in a way that suits you, Shadow

cyclonus11

The only movement issue I have (unless you consider not being able to swim under water a movement issue) is sproinging off to the side when I try to jump over something. This has actually gotten me killed on at least one occasion.

Shadowshire

UrQuan wrote: »

.... If you're pressing W and A or W and D at the same time you're going to be moving diagonally. A and D are the strafe keys, period. The only reason you're confused is because when your weapon isn't drawn the animation for the strafe shows your character turning in the direction you're strafing. That's purely cosmetic. As far as the game mechanics are concerned you're still facing the same direction, and you have not turned. You turn using the mouse. You move forwards, backwards, or strafe using WASD.

That's an interesting way of describing it.

In 3rd-person view, the turn is more than cosmetic, because if I press the same key again (whether <A> or <D>), the character then moves in that direction as if moving "forward". That is how <A> and <D> work when they are not "strafe" keys -- as in WoW and in every other game that I can recall playing (i.e., PC, no experience with console games).

The "strafe" keys are usually <Q> and <E> as they are in WoW, or sometimes the player uses the Shift/Alt/Ctrl key to make <A> and <D> function as "strafe" keys. In that case, sometimes the player can keybind <A> and/or <D> to "strafe" and use Shift/Alt/Ctrl to make the character change facing and move to the left or right instead.

Note: I have described "strafing" in a previous post.

The odd thing to me about this is that Bethesda describes <A> and <D> on the Gameplay Controls sheet included in the retail package as "Left" and "Right". They don't use the term "strafe", nor do they say the key turns the character to face that direction.

Whatever, I will be using 1st-person view mode for a while to see whether it will work more to my satisfaction.

Jaerlach

Shadowshire wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

What "key" are you referring to with regards to turning left or right?

A and D are Strafe keys and the mouse controls all directional facing.
If you use the Arrow keys rather than WASD, then Left Arrow and Right Arrow are your default Strafe keys.

Eh, in 3rd-person view, A and D are not "strafe" keys. The character turns 90 degrees to face left or face right, then subsequently moves in that direction.

In an FPS, for a "strafe" move the character does move left or right, but continues to face in the same direction as they would go if moving forward instead. Imagine turning to your left or right, then aiming an assault rifle across your body to the left or right instead of the direction in which you move while firing the weapon.

The distinction between facing/moving while attacking is why it is called "strafing". That is what an aircraft does as it flies more-or-less parallel to the ground while aiming their machine gun or cannon at ground targets instead of at an enemy aircraft ahead of them in the air.

In the FPS and WoW UIs, the strafing key <Q> moves the character to the left as he fires across his body at the target, and the key <E> moves the character to the right as he fires across his body at the target. Moving one or more steps to the left or to the right while continuing to face the same direction can also be called a "side-step", for example, to side-step an AoE attack that spreads along an axis (e.g., as napalm does).

It has occurred to me that perhaps the A and D keys become a "strafe" move in TESO 1st-person view. However, if that is the case, then there must also be some way for the character to turn left or right, because they would never be able to turn around to face the direction that is behind them.

If you want proper control over your character in terms of strafing, you cannot use the auto-run function to move forward; ....

As far as I know, a character can use a strafe "side-step" move with autorun enabled in WoW -- whether in any other game, I cannot recall. Actually, in the original FPS games that I played back in the 1990s, there was no autorun key. You simply held the key down and your character moved in that direction until you released it, regardless of whether you were using a "strafe" move or turning left or right to face that direction, then moving in that direction. Holding the key down has that effect in TESO, too.

To dodge roll in a directional manner, you must either double tap the direction you wish to roll (ie: Double tap D to roll right; Double tap A to roll left; Double tap S to roll backwards.)

If you wish to roll in a directional manner while using a single key keybind for the Dodge function, then you must hold down the direction you wish to roll and then press the Dodge key. A keybinding for Dodge always makes the character dodge in the direction he or she is traveling, or forward when the character is standing still.

Okay, thank you for that clarification! Currently, I do have Dodge bound to a key. That would be useful if the player re-binds movement to the mouse and combat to the keyboard. If I cannot or do not do that, then probably I should not bind Dodge to a key and just juse the double-tap instead. The software should be able to distinguish a double-tap from a continuous press on a movement direction key.

Would simply like to see an option to center the camera at any level of zoom, and a method of controlling Third Person field of view (considering we got one for First Person already...)

Well, that is really all that I am requesting -- an option to automatically face the camera in the same direction that the character faces in 3rd-person view, so I don't have to change the camera facing with the mouse when I turn the character.

Note that if you ready your weapon, a and D are now sidesteps. Samadhi is right however, the turning is cosmetic. Your character has no turn speed in combat and skills will go where the crosshairs point. Even though your character runs to the left instead of sidestepping, he can instantly turn to the cursor to use any skill pressed. The functionality is the same.

UrQuan

Shadowshire wrote: »

That's an interesting way of describing it.

In 3rd-person view, the turn is more than cosmetic, because if I press the same key again (whether <A> or <D>), the character then moves in that direction as if moving "forward". That is how <A> and <D> work when they are not "strafe" keys -- as in WoW and in every other game that I can recall playing (i.e., PC, no experience with console games).

No, it's not more than cosmetic. The <A> key is not the "turn left" key, and the <D> key is not the "turn right" key. They are the "move left" and "move right" keys. What is strafing? It's moving left or right while still looking in the same direction. That's exactly what happens in ESO when you use the <A> or <D> keys. When your weapon is not drawn, cosmetically your character appears to turn to face the direction you are moving, but as far as every game mechanic is concerned, your facing has not changed. You are still interacting with everything in the game based on the direction you were facing before you hit the <A> or <D> key. You are strafing.

Play the game and check it out. Here's a simple overhead diagram to explain:

B
____________C

B = a barrel that you want to interact with
C = your character - currently facing toward the top of the page

If you want to interact with that barrel you would either have to turn left, move forward, and then turn right again, or strafe left. In ESO, all you have to do is use the <A> key, and you'll strafe left while still looking towards the top of the page. When you come even with the barrel, you'll be able to interact with it without turning. This occurs regardless of whether your character appears to have turned to face left. The left and right turns from using the <A> and <D> keys when your weapon is not drawn are purely cosmetic. You still interact with the world based on where the crosshairs are on the screen, and that's based entirely on using the mouse to turn.

Enodoc

Enodoc wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Consider it this way; movement is based on the way the camera is facing, not the way the character is facing.
Since you have to turn the camera to aim, the direction the character is facing is largely irrelevant except in RP situations.

[...]
In other words, the character moves along the axis of the direction that the camera is pointing. Turning the character to face left or right does not change that direction.
[...]

That's what I said.

Shadowshire wrote: »

In any case, I cannot target what I cannot see, so I must change the direction that the camera points regardless of the direction that the character faces when an opponent is not in view. My complaint is that doing so has been more difficult in TESO than it would be if the camera would automatically point in the direction that the character faces -- even more so if I must also turn the character to face the target in order to defend or counterattack.

I actually need to check this, I'm not sure whether you need to turn the character to defend or counter, or whether attacking an enemy in the direction you're aiming (the camera) turns the character for you.

Just wanted to confirm that I checked this and it is indeed the case. The direction your character is facing in does not affect what you are attacking. You will always attack or defend against the enemy that is under the crosshair, even if your character is facing in the opposite direction.

So to recap:
W - character moves away from the camera
A - character moves leftwards parallel to the camera
S - character moves towards the camera
D - character moves rightwards parallel to the camera

A, D and S make the character turn to face the way they are going when not in combat, but still result in the character moving in that direction relative to the camera. Think of it like a console controller; W,A,S,D is the left stick (movement) and the mouse is the right stick (camera).