UI: Character Movement

Shadowshire

When I sent this message to TESO Support, the person who responded suggested that I post it on the forum:

Since I began playing I have not progressed much yet, but there is an issue with the UI which I have not been able to resolve.

Basically, it has proven impossible to confidently predict where my character will go when I press the key to move "forward" or, especially, to turn left or right.

When I turn my character toward my right, for example, then press the same key again, he does not turn right again. He moves "forward" in the direction that he is facing (!). Also, the "camera" -- my point of view -- does not change to the direction that I have turned him. So, he moves to the right across my field of view instead.

That is not what I expect or want to see.

First, the failure to turn right when I press that key again is totally at odds with every UI that I have found in any game designed for the PC that I have played. Clearly there is a flaw or malfunction in the software design or implementation. Why it has not been remedied yet is a mystery. (The Skyrim UI, which was ported from the X-box, does not have this problem.)

Second, since the camera does not "follow the character" I must also use the mouse to change the direction in which the camera points, so that I am again looking at my character "from behind". However, there is nothing to tell me the point on the "horizon" at which the camera is pointed,i.e., the centerline of its field of view, nor any guide that shows the point to which my character is facing. So "forward" is always vague and rarely the exact direction which my character faces.

As far as I can determine, there is no setting that will cause the camera to "follow" the point-of-view of the character automatically (as it does by default in World of Warcraft). Changing perspective to "first person" instead of "third person" does not resolve the problem -- it is even worse.

Instead, I must use the mouse each and every time the character turns in order to re-define which direction is "forward". Consequently, I must use both hands, one on the keyboard, the other on the mouse, and coordinate them without any evident assistance from the UI.

This is highly inefficient, and with a proper UI design, it would be wholly unecessary.

In my experience, TESO movement UI makes it all but impossible to move the character through terrain effectively and quickly, and to postion the character relative to other characters or objects optimally. I often move into "jams" where passage is constrained, and extricating him is a chore -- and he may be killed in the process. When my character is attacked from any direction other than "straight ahead" it is time-consuming and frustrating to move him so that he can face the enemy. Executing a "u-turn" to respond to an attack from behind becomes a farce.

One reason for this state of affairs is that TESO does not have a "side step" or "strafe" move -- a move to left or to right without changing the direction in which the character is facing. Also, the "Dodge" feature "rolls" or tumbles my character forward and using an Arrow key to indicate the direction apparently does not work -- although that is probably affected by whether my point of view is from directly behind my character, since an attempt to roll "toward" me when my view is from the side will be translated into a forward tumble instead.

To say that this is a very disappointing thing to discover is an understatement. In WoW, a player can easily make a large variety of moves with their character, even run in circles around an opponent. It is realtively easy to learn how to position a WoW character precisely where you want him.

But even simple movement in TESO is akin to watching a drunk stagger down the street. Fights start looking like an insane tango with an NPC because I cannot position the character easily and quickly to engage a foe.

Please let me know what I can do to overcome this, if that is possible.

nerevarine1138

You can stop playing as though this is WoW, or you can switch to first-person view.

This is the first complaint I've heard about simple movement being such a trial.

AlexDougherty

First, the guy from TESO support (who should have had the info) probably meant the Customer Services forum (just below Add-On forum in the list to the right).

Second, in game check that your keys are bound correct, it's on of the options when you hit escape, it should show what each key does, and if you have another key bound to that as well.

The only other thing I can think is are you using a wireless keyboard, because I know people have had issues with that before.

nerevarine1138

AlexDougherty wrote: »

First, the guy from TESO support (who should have had the info) probably meant the Customer Services forum (just below Add on forum in the list to the right).

Second, in game check that your keys are bound correct, it's on of the options when you hit escape, it should show what each key does, and if you have another key bound to that as well.

The only other thing I can think is are you using a wireless keyboard, because I know people have had issues with that before.

The OP isn't actually experiencing problems with movement in that way. He actually has a problem with the way movement is working as a whole.

Bloodfang

OP,

The camera is moving just the same in both ESO and WoW (It is following you). Just use your mouse wheel.

The only difference in camera that I find between the 2 games:

- In ESO you are looking forward
- In WoW mostly kinda upside / down

The explanation is easy as to why:

- In ESO you have to pay attention to blocking, dodging etc. Also it's nice looking at a beautiful landscape.

- In WoW you are mostly spending time looking at your action bars, your enemies cast timers etc. When fighting bosses you limit the view only to that Boss and to your ground. So you are basically not looking at anything behind your enemies.

ers101284b14_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

First, the guy from TESO support (who should have had the info) probably meant the Customer Services forum (just below Add on forum in the list to the right).

Second, in game check that your keys are bound correct, it's on of the options when you hit escape, it should show what each key does, and if you have another key bound to that as well.

The only other thing I can think is are you using a wireless keyboard, because I know people have had issues with that before.

The OP isn't actually experiencing problems with movement in that way. He actually has a problem with the way movement is working as a whole.

Yep that's pretty much what I'm reading too. He seems to be ignoring the crosshairs also.

AlexDougherty

Right you've put more in since I replied last, @Despair9 is right the camera follows you, you can realign it with the mouse, or if you want you can zoom in to first person perspective.

But that's how the camera is supposed to be, it allows you to circle mobs while keeping them in view. It's just a matter of getting used to it.

danno8

What the op does not like is the LMB and RMB being "light attack" and "block" and not "mouse free look" and "turn to face forward" like most other memos.

It does take getting used to and it does have drawbacks (like placing AoE up a slope, and looking behind you as you run forward). In the end it is just different.

I am not sure why you are having so much trouble manoeuvring though.

Elsonso

The difference between character facing and camera facing has been an issue with me from the start. The fact that, no matter what, the character always runs forward is somewhat annoying. I can see the savings in animation and coordination between clients.

In general, for non-combat movement, I find that I really only need two keys: forward and backward. Both move the character forward, but appear to move the camera as they indicate.

In combat, all four keys are necessary, but in almost every case where I want to move sideways, I want to move sideways, not turn 90 degrees and run straight.

This is one reason that I use 1st person for almost everything. In this way, I never care which way the character is facing.

Jahosefat

The crosshairs indicate which direction is forward. I actually find ESO movement system to be much more fluid and fast paced than wow (not to mention the targeting!); but yes ESO requires the use of two hands. I don't find this to be a problem though.

[Edit]: You can play with one hand, it just has to be your mouse hand. Bind your autorun to MB4 or something and voila, you're running around with one hand

Samadhi

Shadowshire wrote: »

...
Basically, it has proven impossible to confidently predict where my character will go when I press the key to move "forward" or, especially, to turn left or right.
...

Shadowshire wrote: »

...
One reason for this state of affairs is that TESO does not have a "side step" or "strafe" move -- a move to left or to right without changing the direction in which the character is facing. Also, the "Dodge" feature "rolls" or tumbles my character forward and using an Arrow key to indicate the direction apparently does not work -- although that is probably affected by whether my point of view is from directly behind my character, since an attempt to roll "toward" me when my view is from the side will be translated into a forward tumble instead.
...

What "key" are you referring to with regards to turning left or right?

A and D are Strafe keys and the mouse controls all directional facing.
If you use the Arrow keys rather than WASD, then Left Arrow and Right Arrow are your default Strafe keys.

The key layout is setup to function similar to an FPS. It is loosely modeled after previous Elder Scrolls titles, the single player RPG series that this game derives its title and lore from.

If you want proper control over your character in terms of strafing, you cannot use the auto-run function to move forward; this makes sense, because auto-run is specifically relinquishing some control over your character for the convenience of running without actively playing.

To dodge roll in a directional manner, you must either double tap the direction you wish to roll (ie: Double tap D to roll right; Double tap A to roll left; Double tap S to roll backwards.)
If you wish to roll in a directional manner while using a single key keybind for the Dodge function, then you must hold down the direction you wish to roll and then press the Dodge key. A keybinding for Dodge always makes the character dodge in the direction he or she is traveling, or forward when the character is standing still.

Character control in ESO is far preferable to me than any of my past MMOs. The setup is quite intuitive and natural to use. It is also very fluid in terms of character control.

Would simply like to see an option to center the camera at any level of zoom, and a method of controlling Third Person field of view (considering we got one for First Person already...)

Ourorboros

In response to comment about wireless KB/M, that's all I've ever used, no issues whatsoever.

Suggest OP tries a controller, so movement and view are easily manipulated with thumbs only. I use Xbox 360 wireless controller for PC.

Shadowshire

Okay, here we go. ;-) First up:

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You can stop playing as though this is WoW, or you can switch to first-person view.

This is the first complaint I've heard about simple movement being such a trial.

Frankly, I would be happy if the UI for movement behaved the same as it did for Skyrim -- although the SkyUI addon was better -- never mind WoW.

There's nothing wrong with expecting or wanting a UI in which the camera can be toggled to always "follow" behind the character, with the angle adjustable, in third-person perspective. Nor anything wrong with expecting or wanting a UI with which moving a character is as versatile as it is in WoW.

It is rather obvious that TESO UI is derived from console source code, in contrast to the typical point-and-click GUI of Mac OS and of Windows. I don't have any experience with gaming consoles, only with PC interfaces.

As to first-person view, I switched to that for a short while, and I did not find any difference with regard to how the character moves when I used the keys. Maybe I will try it again. But I would much prefer 3rd-person view, especially when my character fights two or more opponents, even more so when one or more of them are using ranged weapons or spells. It is absolutely essential for PvP.

Given some comments posted after yours, I wonder whether those players are seeing the software behave differently than I have described, and, if it is, then why that would be so. My guess is that the behavior is the same, but they have become so accustomed to using both hands for movement that they don't recognize the issue. It is a steep learning curve for me, though, in part because I am afflicted with a disease that affects the tendons in my hands (and feet).

Shadowshire

AlexDougherty wrote: »

First, the guy from TESO support (who should have had the info) probably meant the Customer Services forum (just below Add-On forum in the list to the right).

Second, in game check that your keys are bound correct, it's one of the options when you hit escape, it should show what each key does, and if you have another key bound to that as well.

The only other thing I can think is are you using a wireless keyboard, because I know people have had issues with that before.

I am not using a wireless keyboard and/or wireless mouse. I have changed various keybindings -- as I almost always do for every game that I've played which has that feature -- mostly to make it more efficient. We can bind two keys to the same action, but the interface will not allow a player to bind a a key to an action without unbinding that key from a different action, if it is already bound.

The heart of the issue is that the "camera" does not automatically "follow" the facing of the character. Also, changing the point around the horizon at which the camera points requires using the mouse, but the character is moved with the keys. So I have to use both hands, which is neither efficient nor accurate and probably won't become very "smooth" without a lot of practice.

Shadowshire

Despair9 wrote: »

OP,

The camera is moving just the same in both ESO and WoW (It is following you). Just use your mouse wheel. ....

No, in 3rd-person view, a character does not move the same in TESO as it would in WoW.

With WoW, for 3rd-person view, a player can keybind a toggle for the camera to "follow" behind the character and to point the same way that the character faces when the character turns left or right. Also, the angle of the camera can be adjusted by pressing and holding the LMB on the display screen (away from any buttons or bars), then moving the cursor up or down, so you can look straight-up overhead or directly down at the surface. But it is usually adjusted to a shallow angle looking down at the character from a point above and behind. The player can also "zoom in" to see what the character sees from the character's location, which is similar to 1st-person view, then "zoom out" to return to whatever distance they want.

Heh .... describing it that way makes me think that maybe I can switch to 1st person view and do the same thing in TESO, if the camera does follow the character in that view. In my brief experience with it, it did not seem to do that, and I also did not attempt to "zoom out".

However, if the camera will follow the character and allow me to "zoom out" to see him from a distance, then the issue is solved. <sigh>

** OFF TOPIC **

FWIW, I refer to WoW only as an example of what I expect and want to see and do, although I could also mostly do the same thing in TES: Skyrim. In in all of my experience, what you say of TESO is true of WoW and vice-versa. A player can do far more to customize the WoW UI than changing key binds. There are also reliable addons such as ELV which can minimize the UI elements shown on the display screen even more than you can reduce them with the native UI for TESO.

Regardless, I know that I am not playing WoW and I would be doing so if that is what I wanted to do.

What I really like about TESO is the realism of the graphics, and the depth and detail of the story-lines. The quests are longer and the activities which the character undertakes to accomplish a quest are more cleanly integrated with the underlying story. Combat is also not nearly as complex, for better or for worse.

WoW quests look and feel as if they were created by using software development project planning and organizing software -- just chains and groups of tasks. Also, the WoW quest designer introduces lame hand-eye coordination games (like the ones you find in video arcades and carnivals) into the quest chains. They do not contribute anything to the story or to role-playing.

TESO quests look and feel as though they were created by a good fantasy fiction writer. They wrote story first, then the developers implemented the course of actions that the protagonist took as the sub-quests. There are short stories which are implemented as "side quests", too. It is a bit like having a role in a movie such as The Lord of the Rings, which itself was derived from the trilogy of fantasy novels written by J.R.R. Tolkein that have that name.

Djem

Here's a solution (a terrible one at that, but still) for you: Toggle the walk option. That will make you instantly turn the direction you want.

Samadhi

Shadowshire wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You can stop playing as though this is WoW, or you can switch to first-person view.

This is the first complaint I've heard about simple movement being such a trial.

Frankly, I would be happy if the UI for movement behaved the same as it did for Skyrim -- although the SkyUI addon was better -- never mind WoW.
...

Definitely seems as though you have sort of glitch or changed something unusual in your ESO or Skyrim controls.

My ESO and Skyrim control almost exactly the same in both first person and third person views.

The only exceptions are with how ESO requires me to press numbers to use skills, and that pressing S to travel backwards in Skyrim animates my character as walking backwards, whereas in ESO it animates my character as walking towards the camera. The latter difference is a difference simply of animation though; functionally the direction of travel is the exact same.

Shadowshire

lordrichter wrote: »

The difference between character facing and camera facing has been an issue with me from the start. The fact that, no matter what, the character always runs forward is somewhat annoying. I can see the savings in animation and coordination between clients.

In general, for non-combat movement, I find that I really only need two keys: forward and backward. Both move the character forward, but appear to move the camera as they indicate.

In combat, all four keys are necessary, but in almost every case where I want to move sideways, I want to move sideways, not turn 90 degrees and run straight.

This is one reason that I use 1st person for almost everything. In this way, I never care which way the character is facing.

So you recognize and understand the issue as I have described it. :-)

In first-person view, does the "zoom out" leave the character in place and move your point-of-view to a spot behind the character?

In first-person view, does using the "right" or the "left" key cause the character to "side-step", i.e., step to the right/left and continue facing the same direction? That is called a "strafe" move in FPS games.

I must investigate first-person view further for myself.

Shadowshire

Samadhi wrote: »

What "key" are you referring to with regards to turning left or right?

A and D are Strafe keys and the mouse controls all directional facing.
If you use the Arrow keys rather than WASD, then Left Arrow and Right Arrow are your default Strafe keys.

Eh, in 3rd-person view, A and D are not "strafe" keys. The character turns 90 degrees to face left or face right, then subsequently moves in that direction.

In an FPS, for a "strafe" move the character does move left or right, but continues to face in the same direction as they would go if moving forward instead. Imagine turning to your left or right, then aiming an assault rifle across your body to the left or right instead of the direction in which you move while firing the weapon.

The distinction between facing/moving while attacking is why it is called "strafing". That is what an aircraft does as it flies more-or-less parallel to the ground while aiming their machine gun or cannon at ground targets instead of at an enemy aircraft ahead of them in the air.

In the FPS and WoW UIs, the strafing key <Q> moves the character to the left as he fires across his body at the target, and the key <E> moves the character to the right as he fires across his body at the target. Moving one or more steps to the left or to the right while continuing to face the same direction can also be called a "side-step", for example, to side-step an AoE attack that spreads along an axis (e.g., as napalm does).

It has occurred to me that perhaps the A and D keys become a "strafe" move in TESO 1st-person view. However, if that is the case, then there must also be some way for the character to turn left or right, because they would never be able to turn around to face the direction that is behind them.

If you want proper control over your character in terms of strafing, you cannot use the auto-run function to move forward; ....

As far as I know, a character can use a strafe "side-step" move with autorun enabled in WoW -- whether in any other game, I cannot recall. Actually, in the original FPS games that I played back in the 1990s, there was no autorun key. You simply held the key down and your character moved in that direction until you released it, regardless of whether you were using a "strafe" move or turning left or right to face that direction, then moving in that direction. Holding the key down has that effect in TESO, too.

To dodge roll in a directional manner, you must either double tap the direction you wish to roll (ie: Double tap D to roll right; Double tap A to roll left; Double tap S to roll backwards.)

If you wish to roll in a directional manner while using a single key keybind for the Dodge function, then you must hold down the direction you wish to roll and then press the Dodge key. A keybinding for Dodge always makes the character dodge in the direction he or she is traveling, or forward when the character is standing still.

Okay, thank you for that clarification! Currently, I do have Dodge bound to a key. That would be useful if the player re-binds movement to the mouse and combat to the keyboard. If I cannot or do not do that, then probably I should not bind Dodge to a key and just juse the double-tap instead. The software should be able to distinguish a double-tap from a continuous press on a movement direction key.

Would simply like to see an option to center the camera at any level of zoom, and a method of controlling Third Person field of view (considering we got one for First Person already...)

Well, that is really all that I am requesting -- an option to automatically face the camera in the same direction that the character faces in 3rd-person view, so I don't have to change the camera facing with the mouse when I turn the character.

Mettaricana

Shadowshire wrote: »

But even simple movement in TESO is akin to watching a drunk stagger down the street. Fights start looking like an insane tango with an NPC because I cannot position the character easily and quickly to engage a foe.

Please let me know what I can do to overcome this, if that is possible.

do you not know how to game? if anything i'd prefer eso control scheme compared to WoW i move and dodge gracefully as can be in eso. there is no error at all in the ESO movement

SFBryan18

This isn't wow. Deal with it.

Shadowshire

NOTE: for those of you who have commented about "ignoring the crosshairs", you are probably correct. That said, I have posted another thread asking about the onscreen display UI. I don't recall seeing anything that looks like "crosshairs" on the screen. Perhaps I have the mouse cursor toggled "off" -?-. I must remember to check whether it is.

Shadowshire

*** OFF TOPIC ***

First, it should be acknowledged that the current WoW UI is the result of 10 years of additions, modifications, and bug-fixes. Even with the most recent expac, "Warlords of Draenor", they've added actions to the keybinding UI and modified a few that might have had a bug. Rome was not built in one day, and TESO won't be completed after one year or even two.

Second, FYI: I am a retired former programmer and systems analyst -- i.e., a software designer and dev project manager. So, I tend to look at game software from a different perspective than most gamers have. :-)

In all of my experience, the UI is just as important -- with regard to whether people are willing and able to use an app effectively and efficiently -- as whether the software produces valid output from valid input. If you ignore either one, then no one will receive the full benefit (if any benefit) of the software.

Further, up-to-date documentation -- in all forms, not just text but also graphic illustrations and "how to" videos -- is essential. No program is self-explanatory if it does anything more complex than output "Hello World". Well-done docs inform and instruct the users, and serve also to train the support staff. Those who are willing and able to use it can spare themselves a lot of time and effort to obtain the information from other sources.

Enough said, I hope.

Samadhi

Shadowshire wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

What "key" are you referring to with regards to turning left or right?

A and D are Strafe keys and the mouse controls all directional facing.
If you use the Arrow keys rather than WASD, then Left Arrow and Right Arrow are your default Strafe keys.

Eh, in 3rd-person view, A and D are not "strafe" keys. The character turns 90 degrees to face left or face right, then subsequently moves in that direction.

In an FPS, for a "strafe" move the character does move left or right, but continues to face in the same direction as they would go if moving forward instead. Imagine turning to your left or right, then aiming an assault rifle across your body to the left or right instead of the direction in which you move while firing the weapon.
...

The character only turns his or her body 90 degrees when his or her weapon is sheathed.
When a character has his or her weapon drawn, the animation changes to a side-stepping motion while the character continues to face forward.

Shadowshire

Samadhi wrote: »

....

The character only turns his or her body 90 degrees when his or her weapon is sheathed. When a character has his or her weapon drawn, the animation changes to a side-stepping motion while the character continues to face forward.

Okay, thank-you for that information! I had no idea that it changed according to whether the weapon is "sheathed", just that he does not move as I expect -- so it appears to be inconsistent, thus unreliable, for no clearly evident reason. Thus, it seems that to retreat, you must first sheathe the weapon.

Does that switch from turn to side-step (or vice-versa) occur for both 3rd-person and 1st-person views? It seems that it should.

My current character is armed with a staff since no sword or shield was available. Sometimes it is automatically stashed on his back, such as when I stop to talk, but most of the time it is in his right hand, or both hands. So I need to be aware of that effect on moving him and sheathe it if necessary.

Thanks again.

Rosveen

It has occurred to me that perhaps the A and D keys become a "strafe" move in TESO 1st-person view. However, if that is the case, then there must also be some way for the character to turn left or right, because they would never be able to turn around to face the direction that is behind them.

There is: moving your mouse. ESO movement control system isn't inherently flawed, it's just different from what you like/are used to. Skyrim was the same way, so I'm not sure why hold is as an example against ESO.

I will admit this system may be less accesible for people lacking finer motion control (i.e. because of age, disease or disability) or unable to stress the hand with continuous movement. Less physically demanding alternatives to a traditional mouse are available.

pronkg

This is just a matter of getting used to really... I played wow once after Eso and I reacted the same as you do now. The movement in wow was really bad for me until I got used to that.

You can't have it all. Either live with it or hope they will make a mod for you.

Enodoc

Consider it this way; movement is based on the way the camera is facing, not the way the character is facing.
Since you have to turn the camera to aim, the direction the character is facing is largely irrelevant except in RP situations.

Aaron0887

OP, from what I've read I would say that it's your expectation of what the controls should be that's flawed, not the game itself. ESO has an action based combat system, you can't just stand on one spot and press buttons like in WoW, you should pretty much be moving all the time to dodge, block and line up your abilities.

Every 3Rd or 1St person RPG with action combat I've ever played has controls very similar to ESO, there is nothing new here, it's fundamental to the games design.

One thing is for sure, if you are trying to find a spot to stand and attack as you mentioned in one post, rather than moving and reacting to the combat you will find the game extremely hard.

Elsonso

Shadowshire wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The difference between character facing and camera facing has been an issue with me from the start. The fact that, no matter what, the character always runs forward is somewhat annoying. I can see the savings in animation and coordination between clients.

In general, for non-combat movement, I find that I really only need two keys: forward and backward. Both move the character forward, but appear to move the camera as they indicate.

In combat, all four keys are necessary, but in almost every case where I want to move sideways, I want to move sideways, not turn 90 degrees and run straight.

This is one reason that I use 1st person for almost everything. In this way, I never care which way the character is facing.

So you recognize and understand the issue as I have described it. :-)

In first-person view, does the "zoom out" leave the character in place and move your point-of-view to a spot behind the character?

In first-person view, does using the "right" or the "left" key cause the character to "side-step", i.e., step to the right/left and continue facing the same direction? That is called a "strafe" move in FPS games.

I must investigate first-person view further for myself.

I do recognize that and support your comment.

When zooming out from 1st to 3rd, the character does not change facing to match the camera. This is the only way to find out what direction the character is actually facing.

Does the character side-step when moving to the side? No. Because the camera does not change perspective, it appears like it does. In reality, the character is intently studying a wall or something while I watch what some monster is doing.

I don't feel bad about this. NPCs routinely attack me while facing away from me. They also run backwards towards me.

The direction the model seems to be facing appears to be just cosmetic.

The camera will re-orient to the direction the character is facing when entering the game or coming out of an ALT menu. I am often surprised, after eagerly checking to see what trial my unknown guild mates have completed, to find myself staring at a wall.

Circuitous

Pressing Forward moves your character away from the camera.
Right moves your character to the right with regards to the camera.
Left moves your character to the left.
Back moves your character towards the camera.

Though your character turns to face the direction they're moving when your weapon is not sheathed, their movement behavior is the same as if they had their weapon out and were properly strafing.

The camera does not change position with your movement. It is expected that the player will use keyboard keys to move while using the mouse to look around, much like previous Elder Scrolls titles.

Unlike previous titles, and unlike many other MMOs, your character does not turn at all when you move to the right or left. They will move in a straight line unless you steer with the camera/mouse.

The crosshair should look a bit like this.



It'll be in the center of the screen, you can't miss it.