Nightblade Stealth

Azalin76

Stealth is useless in this game unless you only use it for bow attacks, if you get anywhere near an enemy they will always see you. I have never had stealth actually work for me for melee attacks. Shadow cloak is even worse because it has such a short timer on it, I have tried to use it to sneak past enemies and by the time I get two steps towards them it is over and the just attack me. They should just remove it from the game if they aren't going to make it usable.

AltusVenifus

XEVENEX wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.

Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..

I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D

Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.

Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...

It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.

Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...

your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...

XEVENEX

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.

Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..

I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D

Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.

Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...

It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.

Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...

your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...

That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.

TheShadowScout

Azalin76 wrote: »

Stealth is useless in this game unless you only use it for bow attacks, if you get anywhere near an enemy they will always see you. I have never had stealth actually work for me for melee attacks. Shadow cloak is even worse because it has such a short timer on it, I have tried to use it to sneak past enemies and by the time I get two steps towards them it is over and the just attack me. They should just remove it from the game if they aren't going to make it usable.

Well, it depends how you use it... my main is a melee nightblade, and I often make good use of sneaking up on someones backside and planting a well aimed hidden dagger in same.
Though I admit, it isn't easy... is one misses the second between where your enemies back comes in range and them noticing you are there... poof, all that sneaky wasted. And the classic medium-armor, dual-wield melee nightblades just can't measure up to other classes without that first sneaky backstab. I play enough other classes to have learned that, on average, my twin-dagger nightblade had the hardest time on all fights.

Now, I can see how the game designers wouldn't want too much power in a sneak-stab move for PvP... its no fun dying from a stealth attack without getting even a chance to fight back. Of course, the way things are now, melee nightblades have almost no other way to win then stealth as they can, since in any "fair fight" everyone else will beat them - medium armor stamina DPS support just can't generally measure up to heavy armor protection, or light armor magica build support (Spell DPS, damage shields, heals... all of it). Not much fun in it either. The answer for me is to have my NB grab a bow when I want to PvP...

Shadow Cloak... eh. It can be useful, but... very, very hard to use it properly. I for one would have preferred it to be a toggleable, constant-magica-drain effect that automatically switches off when you do an attack (not do damage, DoTs I am looking atcha), get hit by an attack (AoE) or when you run out of magica... same general per sec cost, which allows a lot longer stealth... making it actually useful to sneak past some guards...
Oh, well, maybe someday they'll change it to something like that...

DDuke

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

Stealth is useless in this game unless you only use it for bow attacks, if you get anywhere near an enemy they will always see you. I have never had stealth actually work for me for melee attacks. Shadow cloak is even worse because it has such a short timer on it, I have tried to use it to sneak past enemies and by the time I get two steps towards them it is over and the just attack me. They should just remove it from the game if they aren't going to make it usable.

Well, it depends how you use it... my main is a melee nightblade, and I often make good use of sneaking up on someones backside and planting a well aimed hidden dagger in same.
Though I admit, it isn't easy... is one misses the second between where your enemies back comes in range and them noticing you are there... poof, all that sneaky wasted. And the classic medium-armor, dual-wield melee nightblades just can't measure up to other classes without that first sneaky backstab. I play enough other classes to have learned that, on average, my twin-dagger nightblade had the hardest time on all fights.

Now, I can see how the game designers wouldn't want too much power in a sneak-stab move for PvP... its no fun dying from a stealth attack without getting even a chance to fight back. Of course, the way things are now, melee nightblades have almost no other way to win then stealth as they can, since in any "fair fight" everyone else will beat them - medium armor stamina DPS support just can't generally measure up to heavy armor protection, or light armor magica build support (Spell DPS, damage shields, heals... all of it). Not much fun in it either. The answer for me is to have my NB grab a bow when I want to PvP...

Shadow Cloak... eh. It can be useful, but... very, very hard to use it properly. I for one would have preferred it to be a toggleable, constant-magica-drain effect that automatically switches off when you do an attack (not do damage, DoTs I am looking atcha), get hit by an attack (AoE) or when you run out of magica... same general per sec cost, which allows a lot longer stealth... making it actually useful to sneak past some guards...
Oh, well, maybe someday they'll change it to something like that...

I've been telling this for months, writing multi-page essays with solutions & additions that would fix the stealth gameplay. All I've been met with is absolute silence from ZOS

Here's when they nerfed stealth damage: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes/

Here's how Champion System is not good for stealth gameplay:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143544/champion-system-its-implications-on-build-diversity-in-pvp

At this point, I'm fairly certain they are just waiting until everyone who wants to play a sneaky rogue type character (competitively) quits the game, and they can focus the balancing solely on the dmg shield/heal spamming... uh, I dont even know what to call them, as they dont really fit any classic RPG archetype.

AltusVenifus

XEVENEX wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.

Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..

I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D

Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.

Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...

It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.

Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...

your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...

That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.

My sorc uses pets in PVE and solo all the time... NBs should never us invis because it is so gimp broken... there are plenty of skills that aren't used in PVP, not the point... I could care less if they made it a PVE skill... but it isn't that either

I'm pretty sure you would complain if your pet just stood there and did nothing at all...

XEVENEX

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.

Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..

I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D

Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.

Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...

It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.

Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...

your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...

That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.

My sorc uses pets in PVE and solo all the time... NBs should never us invis because it is so gimp broken... there are plenty of skills that aren't used in PVP, not the point... I could care less if they made it a PVE skill... but it isn't that either

I'm pretty sure you would complain if your pet just stood there and did nothing at all...

ITT Nightblades want to hide from players they couldn't one shot because ~gorilla warfare~ and because ~signature ability~.

Make it godly in PvE I don't care, but if you willingly enter combat with another player you should have to fight that player or run away.

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.

Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..

I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D

Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.

Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...

It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.

Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...

your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...

That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.

My sorc uses pets in PVE and solo all the time... NBs should never us invis because it is so gimp broken... there are plenty of skills that aren't used in PVP, not the point... I could care less if they made it a PVE skill... but it isn't that either

I'm pretty sure you would complain if your pet just stood there and did nothing at all...

ITT Nightblades want to hide from players they couldn't one shot because ~gorilla warfare~ and because ~signature ability~.

Make it godly in PvE I don't care, but if you willingly enter combat with another player you should have to fight that player or run away.

Really... and how do you propose those playing a stealth build fight the immortal players holding block and/or spamming dmg shields/heals?

Especially when their 50-man zerg is likely to turn around and roll over you any second?

Please don't tell other people how they should play the game, there are already little enough players not spamming shields & heals and playing the "resource game" that 90% of fights turns into.

I'm all for not having to run away after opener, and instead engaging the opponent, using stealth for offense or survival.
Zenimax, however, doesn't feel like this should be an option for players.

XEVENEX

I'm not sure how much better you want it to be to be honest. I've 1v1'd lots of night blades that were able to move in and out of stealth at will.

Seriously. Crit Rush> Hide > Crit Rush > Hide... What exactly is broken?

TheBull

@ZOS_GaryA‌ Any updates Gary? A couple months ago you said you guys were working on improvements. It would be great if you could give us a bit of what you guys are thinking/doing, subject to change ofcourse. Thanks.

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

I'm not sure how much better you want it to be to be honest. I've 1v1'd lots of night blades that were able to move in and out of stealth at will.

Seriously. Crit Rush> Hide > Crit Rush > Hide... What exactly is broken?

Do you want a video of it, or can I just copy/paste what I wrote earlier?

How are you supposed to play a sneaky rogue character, when you can suddenly be seen from miles away (41m vision infront of you with potion, 27m vision with magelight), and your only supposed tool for survival doesn't work (and you can't even really know it's not working or why it's not working)?

This alone would be bad, but add to this the fact that your cloak (and stealth) can and will be broken by:
Charging enemy
AoE
DoTs (Dark Cloak sometimes fixes this problem)
Random projectiles
NPCs within 50m (especially the guards in Cyrodiil)

And that said, I doubt Crit Rush-> Hide -> Crit Rush -> Hide actually kills anyone (apart from laughter)

Heishi

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.

Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.

The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.

What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.

AlexDougherty

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage,

I get where you are coming from, the problem is that mobs are attacking when they shouldn't be able to detect us. Which plain simply isn't cricket.

Also a lot of the nightblades passives work with invisibility, which in PVP needs to have some viability. Which at the minute it doesn't.

Most of us understand that Magelight or detect potions should make it hard for nightblades. But at the minute the list of things that don't break the cloak is a lot smaller than the thing that do break it, but shouldn't.

DDuke

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.

Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.

The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.

What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.

Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.

I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)

A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.

Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.

Heishi

DDuke wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.

Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.

The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.

What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.

Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.

I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)

A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.

Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.

I'm ok with the pretty much everyone running with stealth detection. It goes this way in most MMOs. As long as you can detect they have the stealth detection it's fine. Though looking at your example, they could tone back the detection radius a bit. I think they should be able to use the Teleport Strike without being seen. It's not the best "from stealth" attack, but it would give them an option. I think the whole snipe debacle caused a lot of problems with getting this all balanced.

For the cloak/invisibility damage, It's been about a month or so since I've actively played my nightblade so things could have changed. I using veiled strike from stealth was doing about 1.5k whereas from cloak it was about 750 I think and 500 normal. I'll get on him later this afternoon and verify some numbers. The 1.5k I am sure of though. because he would 1-2 hit ko most of the VR1 mobs when I was going through. (he's VR2 now for what it's worth but I stopped playing when he rolled to the new level)

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage,

I get where you are coming from, the problem is that mobs are attacking when they shouldn't be able to detect us. Which plain simply isn't cricket.

Also a lot of the nightblades passives work with invisibility, which in PVP needs to have some viability. Which at the minute it doesn't.

Most of us understand that Magelight or detect potions should make it hard for nightblades. But at the minute the list of things that don't break the cloak is a lot smaller than the thing that do break it, but shouldn't.

I agree with the mobs shouldn't be able to detect us. I tried to clarify that in the comments following the quote, but it may not have came across. I know we've discussed this in a few other threads.

kieso

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Damage should not break your invisible status. Skill is useless, fix it already.

have to agree for the simple fact that stealth in this game is not long at all. Id go so far as to even say potions and magelight should not detect the NB stealth ability, just regular sneak.

DDuke

Heishi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.

Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.

The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.

What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.

Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.

I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)

A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.

Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.

I'm ok with the pretty much everyone running with stealth detection. It goes this way in most MMOs. As long as you can detect they have the stealth detection it's fine. Though looking at your example, they could tone back the detection radius a bit. I think they should be able to use the Teleport Strike without being seen. It's not the best "from stealth" attack, but it would give them an option. I think the whole snipe debacle caused a lot of problems with getting this all balanced.

Can't speak for all MMOs, since I obviously havent played all of them, but in the ones I've played, not one had a toggleable "passive" ability that made your playstyle impossible.

WoW for example, the only way to pop you out of stealth was an AoE spell or a DoT on you (preventing you from stealthing for the duration of DoT).
This made the combat very skill based in a way (yeah, tab targeting & all...)

It was very clear when you could stealth, and when you could not. There was no middle-ground of "maybe it'll work?"

Now imagine playing WoW as a rogue, when everyone you ran close to was able to instantly spot you, rendering half your class skills unusable.

Heishi wrote: »

For the cloak/invisibility damage, It's been about a month or so since I've actively played my nightblade so things could have changed. I using veiled strike from stealth was doing about 1.5k whereas from cloak it was about 750 I think and 500 normal. I'll get on him later this afternoon and verify some numbers. The 1.5k I am sure of though. because he would 1-2 hit ko most of the VR1 mobs when I was going through. (he's VR2 now for what it's worth but I stopped playing when he rolled to the new level)

You only get sneak attack modifier when attacking enemies from stealth.

Veiled Strike/Surprise Attack only gets a stun applied on non-blocking enemies when used from cloak, and your numbers sound surrealistic given that most Snipes are lucky to crit 1.5k from stealth these days.

DDuke

kieso wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Damage should not break your invisible status. Skill is useless, fix it already.

have to agree for the simple fact that stealth in this game is not long at all. Id go so far as to even say potions and magelight should not detect the NB stealth ability, just regular sneak.

Yes, but I believe non-NB players should also have a way of playing a stealthy melee character (else they will all just pick up bow).

For this, the Magelight/Stealth Detection potion radius could be toned down (atleast behind the player) in order for players to be able to get close enough to initiate.

XEVENEX

DDuke wrote: »

NB players should also have a way of playing a stealthy melee

That doesnt even make sense. If you're in melee range, you should be seen. If you're dealing damage, you should be seen. There is nothing stealthy about any of that.

Realism aside, It's a competitive fighting game so you need to fight! Stealth should be used to gain the initiative and nothing more.

If you wan't to use it to escape combat, then it should cripple your offensive ability, much like bolt escape does.

Junipus

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

You should see a proctologist for all that butt-hurt.

NBs can stealth up in combat because that's what they're meant for. Not everyone who ganks others on horseback is a NB either.

Lastly, refer to the many many many posts in the PvP forum on counters to being ganked or dealing with cloaking NBs

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

NB players should also have a way of playing a stealthy melee

That doesnt even make sense. If you're in melee range, you should be seen. If you're dealing damage, you should be seen. There is nothing stealthy about any of that.

Realism aside, It's a competitive fighting game so you need to fight! Stealth should be used to gain the initiative and nothing more.

Wow, you must not have played many games then. Let's take a look at other MMOs:

WoW - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gv-E8c0WoY
WoW Vanilla - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWfdfybBAzY
GW2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKzHTFfi3mk

Needless to say, in all previous single player Elder Scrolls games you could also play a stealthy melee character.

Not sure what the point of your post is.

XEVENEX

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

You should see a proctologist for all that butt-hurt.

NBs can stealth up in combat because that's what they're meant for. Not everyone who ganks others on horseback is a NB either.

Lastly, refer to the many many many posts in the PvP forum on counters to being ganked or dealing with cloaking NBs

I'm really not butt hurt to be honest, but if it makes you feel better, believe it.

I think PvP NBs need other buffs. Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

XEVENEX wrote: »

Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.

TLDR:

More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.

You should see a proctologist for all that butt-hurt.

NBs can stealth up in combat because that's what they're meant for. Not everyone who ganks others on horseback is a NB either.

Lastly, refer to the many many many posts in the PvP forum on counters to being ganked or dealing with cloaking NBs

I'm really not butt hurt to be honest, but if it makes you feel better, believe it.

I think PvP NBs need other buffs. Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.

And spamming heals/dmg shields while block casting is?

You are not really offering anything constructive here.

AaronMB

Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.

It may not be compelling gameplay but it's their choice (as it should be). To help counter some of this I try not to feed the beast: go a different route after I'm ganked, stealth and take my time while going through that 'bad' area when I'm solo (or the gate, etc), add magelight to use on occasion, etc.

XEVENEX

AaronMB wrote: »

Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.

It may not be compelling gameplay but it's their choice (as it should be). To help counter some of this I try not to feed the beast: go a different route after I'm ganked, stealth and take my time while going through that 'bad' area when I'm solo (or the gate, etc), add magelight to use on occasion, etc.

First of all let me say this is not at all meant to be snarky...

I eat "stealth" Nightblades for breakfast and purposefully bait them on my mount. They are not built to actually fight so if you survive their initial burst, you win. I don't need a counter.

What I would like to see is Nightblades who actually fight. Stealth is cool, but your whole PvP build should not revolve around it.

DDuke

XEVENEX wrote: »

AaronMB wrote: »

Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.

It may not be compelling gameplay but it's their choice (as it should be). To help counter some of this I try not to feed the beast: go a different route after I'm ganked, stealth and take my time while going through that 'bad' area when I'm solo (or the gate, etc), add magelight to use on occasion, etc.

First of all let me say this is not at all meant to be snarky...

I eat "stealth" Nightblades for breakfast and purposefully bait them on my mount. They are not built to actually fight so if you survive their initial burst, you win. I don't need a counter.

What I would like to see is Nightblades who actually fight. Stealth is cool, but your whole PvP build should not revolve around it.

You know that you can also fight utilizing stealth to your advantage, right?

Well, atleast in other games. In this game, 99% of time you have to run away if you fail to burst someone from stealth.

See those videos I posted for perfect examples how stealth gameplay should look like.

Heishi

DDuke wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.

Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.

The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.

What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.

Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.

I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)

A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.

Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.

I'm ok with the pretty much everyone running with stealth detection. It goes this way in most MMOs. As long as you can detect they have the stealth detection it's fine. Though looking at your example, they could tone back the detection radius a bit. I think they should be able to use the Teleport Strike without being seen. It's not the best "from stealth" attack, but it would give them an option. I think the whole snipe debacle caused a lot of problems with getting this all balanced.

Can't speak for all MMOs, since I obviously havent played all of them, but in the ones I've played, not one had a toggleable "passive" ability that made your playstyle impossible.

WoW for example, the only way to pop you out of stealth was an AoE spell or a DoT on you (preventing you from stealthing for the duration of DoT).
This made the combat very skill based in a way (yeah, tab targeting & all...)

It was very clear when you could stealth, and when you could not. There was no middle-ground of "maybe it'll work?"

Now imagine playing WoW as a rogue, when everyone you ran close to was able to instantly spot you, rendering half your class skills unusable.

Heishi wrote: »

For the cloak/invisibility damage, It's been about a month or so since I've actively played my nightblade so things could have changed. I using veiled strike from stealth was doing about 1.5k whereas from cloak it was about 750 I think and 500 normal. I'll get on him later this afternoon and verify some numbers. The 1.5k I am sure of though. because he would 1-2 hit ko most of the VR1 mobs when I was going through. (he's VR2 now for what it's worth but I stopped playing when he rolled to the new level)

You only get sneak attack modifier when attacking enemies from stealth.

Veiled Strike/Surprise Attack only gets a stun applied on non-blocking enemies when used from cloak, and your numbers sound surrealistic given that most Snipes are lucky to crit 1.5k from stealth these days.

@DDuke‌ I got some numbers as promised.

It was kinda quick so I went into Glenumbra VR1 area and found some red rooks.

Using crouched stealth and Surprise Attack I hit for 2088 on four different types of red rook and one wolf

Using Shadowy Disguise and Surprise Attack I hit for 745 four times and 777 once

Normal no stealth or cloak I hit for 399 with Surprise Attack

Heavy Attack from crouched stealth was 566

Heavy from Shadowy Disguise was 271

Normal Heavy crit was 205

Heavy without crit 105

I have two modifiers that I could find:
Master Assassin +10% dmg from stealth
Stealthy (Racial) +10% dmg from stealth

Possibly noteworthy he's a vamp, but I didn't see any relevant buffs from it.

Mundus: Apprentice
Dual Wield: Swords

Magicka
2260/2313
50pts

Stamina
1087/2313
0pts

Spell dmg
102/111
crit
6%

Weapon dmg
158/171
crit
33%

I don't have the math for it yet, but wanted to pop up the raw data anyway.

Edit: Forgot to add, in Surprise Attack's description it shows 502dmg

NordJitsu

This is a ridiculous idea.

NB cloak works fine and I see Nbs escape fights more than any other class. They escape way more than Sorcs, especially since the nerf to BE.

This idea would make them practically impossible to catch.

NB is already vying with DK for best class.

It's time for the Forum Blades to give it a rest with asking for buffs.

Lynnessa

NordJitsu wrote: »

It's time for the Forum Blades to give it a rest with asking for buffs.

I'd better not catch the Forum Blades resting until NB are the most OP class, not only in this game, but in all games.

Total world domination. We will settle for nothing less.

<vanishes into the shadows>

<reappears a split-second later because the spell glitched>

I meant to do that.

Lynnessa

DDuke wrote: »

CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.

I think of Cloak as a magic spell that requires constant concentration--if your concentration is broken, so is your invisibility. When using Cloak to sneak through a dungeon or a dangerous area, this constant effort is represented by the need to continually re-cast Cloak. Purely speaking from a flavor standpoint.

DDuke wrote: »

Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.

I'm quite sure that I do get a 10% increase to damage if I attack out of Cloak (as long as it doesn't glitch anyway). From the Master Assassin passive ability, in the Assassination skill line. I thought the extra damage and disorient to targets with their back turned isn't NB specific, but one of the generic stealth mechanics.