whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..
I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D
Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.
AltusVenifus wrote: »whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..
I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D
Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.
Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...
It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.
Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...
your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...
Stealth is useless in this game unless you only use it for bow attacks, if you get anywhere near an enemy they will always see you. I have never had stealth actually work for me for melee attacks. Shadow cloak is even worse because it has such a short timer on it, I have tried to use it to sneak past enemies and by the time I get two steps towards them it is over and the just attack me. They should just remove it from the game if they aren't going to make it usable.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Stealth is useless in this game unless you only use it for bow attacks, if you get anywhere near an enemy they will always see you. I have never had stealth actually work for me for melee attacks. Shadow cloak is even worse because it has such a short timer on it, I have tried to use it to sneak past enemies and by the time I get two steps towards them it is over and the just attack me. They should just remove it from the game if they aren't going to make it usable.
Well, it depends how you use it... my main is a melee nightblade, and I often make good use of sneaking up on someones backside and planting a well aimed hidden dagger in same.
Though I admit, it isn't easy... is one misses the second between where your enemies back comes in range and them noticing you are there... poof, all that sneaky wasted. And the classic medium-armor, dual-wield melee nightblades just can't measure up to other classes without that first sneaky backstab. I play enough other classes to have learned that, on average, my twin-dagger nightblade had the hardest time on all fights.
Now, I can see how the game designers wouldn't want too much power in a sneak-stab move for PvP... its no fun dying from a stealth attack without getting even a chance to fight back. Of course, the way things are now, melee nightblades have almost no other way to win then stealth as they can, since in any "fair fight" everyone else will beat them - medium armor stamina DPS support just can't generally measure up to heavy armor protection, or light armor magica build support (Spell DPS, damage shields, heals... all of it). Not much fun in it either. The answer for me is to have my NB grab a bow when I want to PvP...
Shadow Cloak... eh. It can be useful, but... very, very hard to use it properly. I for one would have preferred it to be a toggleable, constant-magica-drain effect that automatically switches off when you do an attack (not do damage, DoTs I am looking atcha), get hit by an attack (AoE) or when you run out of magica... same general per sec cost, which allows a lot longer stealth... making it actually useful to sneak past some guards...
Oh, well, maybe someday they'll change it to something like that...
AltusVenifus wrote: »whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..
I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D
Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.
Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...
It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.
Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...
your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...
That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.
AltusVenifus wrote: »AltusVenifus wrote: »whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..
I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D
Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.
Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...
It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.
Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...
your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...
That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.
My sorc uses pets in PVE and solo all the time... NBs should never us invis because it is so gimp broken... there are plenty of skills that aren't used in PVP, not the point... I could care less if they made it a PVE skill... but it isn't that either
I'm pretty sure you would complain if your pet just stood there and did nothing at all...
AltusVenifus wrote: »AltusVenifus wrote: »whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »Lava_Croft wrote: »Or you start quaffing detection potions, use Radiant Magelight, throw Caltrops, use AoE skills.Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
Lava_Croft is basically saying you need to learn to play..
I was thinking the same about Nightblades who want to play Peek-A-Boo Online. =D
Besides, nobody should have to use gold, their potion timer, or absurd amounts of magika/stamina to find someone who STARTED the fight.
Almost all current NB builds don't use it... and it is our signature skill... we have an entire line of passive that support our fighting from stealth...
It is like blink for a sorcerer not working, or heals not working for a temp, or any of the armor skills not working for a DK.
Why should anyone need to counter anything? I don't want to waste all stamina dodge rolling out of talons... yet I do...
your argument is stealth shouldn't work because it is easier for you... Great comment your very insightful...
That is not a strong argument. Sorcs have an entire line of passives that support them fighting with pets. They dont use it in pvp. Im not saying NBs dont need any love. Id rather see them get stronger in other ways.
My sorc uses pets in PVE and solo all the time... NBs should never us invis because it is so gimp broken... there are plenty of skills that aren't used in PVP, not the point... I could care less if they made it a PVE skill... but it isn't that either
I'm pretty sure you would complain if your pet just stood there and did nothing at all...
ITT Nightblades want to hide from players they couldn't one shot because ~gorilla warfare~ and because ~signature ability~.
Make it godly in PvE I don't care, but if you willingly enter combat with another player you should have to fight that player or run away.
I'm not sure how much better you want it to be to be honest. I've 1v1'd lots of night blades that were able to move in and out of stealth at will.
Seriously. Crit Rush> Hide > Crit Rush > Hide... What exactly is broken?
How are you supposed to play a sneaky rogue character, when you can suddenly be seen from miles away (41m vision infront of you with potion, 27m vision with magelight), and your only supposed tool for survival doesn't work (and you can't even really know it's not working or why it's not working)?
This alone would be bad, but add to this the fact that your cloak (and stealth) can and will be broken by:
Charging enemy
AoE
DoTs (Dark Cloak sometimes fixes this problem)
Random projectiles
NPCs within 50m (especially the guards in Cyrodiil)
My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage,
My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.
CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.
INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.
Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.
The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.
What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.
My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.
CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.
INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.
Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.
The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.
What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.
Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.
I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)
A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.
Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.
AlexDougherty wrote: »My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage,
I get where you are coming from, the problem is that mobs are attacking when they shouldn't be able to detect us. Which plain simply isn't cricket.
Also a lot of the nightblades passives work with invisibility, which in PVP needs to have some viability. Which at the minute it doesn't.
Most of us understand that Magelight or detect potions should make it hard for nightblades. But at the minute the list of things that don't break the cloak is a lot smaller than the thing that do break it, but shouldn't.
AltusVenifus wrote: »Damage should not break your invisible status. Skill is useless, fix it already.
My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.
CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.
INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.
Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.
The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.
What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.
Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.
I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)
A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.
Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.
I'm ok with the pretty much everyone running with stealth detection. It goes this way in most MMOs. As long as you can detect they have the stealth detection it's fine. Though looking at your example, they could tone back the detection radius a bit. I think they should be able to use the Teleport Strike without being seen. It's not the best "from stealth" attack, but it would give them an option. I think the whole snipe debacle caused a lot of problems with getting this all balanced.
For the cloak/invisibility damage, It's been about a month or so since I've actively played my nightblade so things could have changed. I using veiled strike from stealth was doing about 1.5k whereas from cloak it was about 750 I think and 500 normal. I'll get on him later this afternoon and verify some numbers. The 1.5k I am sure of though. because he would 1-2 hit ko most of the VR1 mobs when I was going through. (he's VR2 now for what it's worth but I stopped playing when he rolled to the new level)
AltusVenifus wrote: »Damage should not break your invisible status. Skill is useless, fix it already.
have to agree for the simple fact that stealth in this game is not long at all. Id go so far as to even say potions and magelight should not detect the NB stealth ability, just regular sneak.
NB players should also have a way of playing a stealthy melee
Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
NB players should also have a way of playing a stealthy melee
That doesnt even make sense. If you're in melee range, you should be seen. If you're dealing damage, you should be seen. There is nothing stealthy about any of that.
Realism aside, It's a competitive fighting game so you need to fight! Stealth should be used to gain the initiative and nothing more.
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
You should see a proctologist for all that butt-hurt.
NBs can stealth up in combat because that's what they're meant for. Not everyone who ganks others on horseback is a NB either.
Lastly, refer to the many many many posts in the PvP forum on counters to being ganked or dealing with cloaking NBs
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Stealth is cool, it adds a lot to PvP, but using it to escape a fight that YOU started is ***. You shouldn't be able to stealth up while in combat, and I can't wait for the stealth revealing flares to be added.
TLDR:
More Nightblades need to come up with builds that can actually fight toe to toe instead of relying on ganking people on horseback.
You should see a proctologist for all that butt-hurt.
NBs can stealth up in combat because that's what they're meant for. Not everyone who ganks others on horseback is a NB either.
Lastly, refer to the many many many posts in the PvP forum on counters to being ganked or dealing with cloaking NBs
I'm really not butt hurt to be honest, but if it makes you feel better, believe it.
I think PvP NBs need other buffs. Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.
Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.
Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.
It may not be compelling gameplay but it's their choice (as it should be). To help counter some of this I try not to feed the beast: go a different route after I'm ganked, stealth and take my time while going through that 'bad' area when I'm solo (or the gate, etc), add magelight to use on occasion, etc.
Pick-A-Boo Online is not compelling gameplay.
It may not be compelling gameplay but it's their choice (as it should be). To help counter some of this I try not to feed the beast: go a different route after I'm ganked, stealth and take my time while going through that 'bad' area when I'm solo (or the gate, etc), add magelight to use on occasion, etc.
First of all let me say this is not at all meant to be snarky...
I eat "stealth" Nightblades for breakfast and purposefully bait them on my mount. They are not built to actually fight so if you survive their initial burst, you win. I don't need a counter.
What I would like to see is Nightblades who actually fight. Stealth is cool, but your whole PvP build should not revolve around it.
My opinion, STEALTH from crouching should be breakable by any type of damage, however you should be able to be seen as though you were unstealthed (by mobs in PvE) I've ran past enemies easier unstealthed without being engaged in combat than I have being stealthed even with being a Khajiit having shadow maxed plus speed bonus from vamp and such.
CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.
INVISIBILITY from potions really shouldn't be breakable either since again it is effect placed on you. In this case it would be like someone shooting you and it breaking health regen from a pot.
Magelight and pots to see invisible should understandably be able to reveal you to a player. I don't think any mobs are in the mages guild so they really shouldn't have magelight. In this situation you're using an effect to counteract an effect so it makes sense.
The fact that ZOS made three terms for being invisible and yet very sloppily use them interchangeably doesn't make sense.
What's the difference? In stealth you get 1.5x bonus damage and cloaked/invisible you get .5x bonus damage IIRC. I did the math on it once upon a time. Might have been 3x and 1.5x respectively.
Well, the thing is that pretty much everyone is running with stealth detection potions or magelight, and using those doesn't require much skill at all. Just one person in a grp running either of these skills is enough to make melee stealth builds a practical impossibility.
I gave an example of how I killed someone in PvP without really deserving that kill (a situation which also probably left the player in question wondering why his cloak wasn't working)
A well placed AoE effect to the area where you expect someone to be stealthed in however, that requires skill & makes for a more responsive, action oriented combat.
Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.
I'm ok with the pretty much everyone running with stealth detection. It goes this way in most MMOs. As long as you can detect they have the stealth detection it's fine. Though looking at your example, they could tone back the detection radius a bit. I think they should be able to use the Teleport Strike without being seen. It's not the best "from stealth" attack, but it would give them an option. I think the whole snipe debacle caused a lot of problems with getting this all balanced.
Can't speak for all MMOs, since I obviously havent played all of them, but in the ones I've played, not one had a toggleable "passive" ability that made your playstyle impossible.
WoW for example, the only way to pop you out of stealth was an AoE spell or a DoT on you (preventing you from stealthing for the duration of DoT).
This made the combat very skill based in a way (yeah, tab targeting & all...)
It was very clear when you could stealth, and when you could not. There was no middle-ground of "maybe it'll work?"
Now imagine playing WoW as a rogue, when everyone you ran close to was able to instantly spot you, rendering half your class skills unusable.For the cloak/invisibility damage, It's been about a month or so since I've actively played my nightblade so things could have changed. I using veiled strike from stealth was doing about 1.5k whereas from cloak it was about 750 I think and 500 normal. I'll get on him later this afternoon and verify some numbers. The 1.5k I am sure of though. because he would 1-2 hit ko most of the VR1 mobs when I was going through. (he's VR2 now for what it's worth but I stopped playing when he rolled to the new level)
You only get sneak attack modifier when attacking enemies from stealth.
Veiled Strike/Surprise Attack only gets a stun applied on non-blocking enemies when used from cloak, and your numbers sound surrealistic given that most Snipes are lucky to crit 1.5k from stealth these days.
It's time for the Forum Blades to give it a rest with asking for buffs.
CLOAK shouldn't be breakable by any sort of damage because come on, it's a skill and last 3 seconds. If you use magic to make yourself invisible, that magic effect isn't just going to stop. It'd be like someone hitting you and knocking you out of bound armor.
Cloak/Invisibility gives no damage bonus by the way, only sneaking gives you 15%~ more damage on targets with their backs turned to you (sometimes it bugs out and gives you no bonus).
Shadowy Disguise morph does give 70% more critical strike chance though.