One vs Twenty

Jaerlach

Huntler wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Well I didn't meant to start all that, oh my.

Basically, Huntler, I was trying to say that there is a large difference in this game between those who know the limits of their class and those who don't. You can have hundreds of people with the same build but some will play it much, much better than others. I've fought DKs with Sypher's exact build before, and wrecked them over and over, whereas I can fight Sypher himself for over 10 minutes and be unable to take him down. To me, that shows that there's a fairly significant skill ceiling, in that builds and gear in and of themselves don't determine who wins.

Why that led into all this nonsense, I have no idea.

Absolutely there will be players who are better than others and I am sure there are 100 different reasons for it. Player skill definitely factors in, but maybe I've been getting sick of the amount of self-back patting people do on these forums and in this game, its ridiculous. While skill can be involved I don't think this game is particularly difficult, hell... the game was meant for a more casual playing base all you have to do is look at how the game was designed with limited skill options, only allowing 5 skills per bar, limited information so that players who want to have more choices/decisions to differentiate can't, etc.


And then a bunch of people got offended for self-esteem issues or whatever it is.

Say what you like about difficulty, but this game does have one major barrier to improvement: information is hard to acquire. You have to meet/ask strong players because build and skill information is not publicized by good sources. Deltia is often the only decent Web based source.

New players have a huge knowledge gap because of this.

Execution may not be harder than other games, but learning how things work certainly is.

This is a good point and completely fair. I'd encourage players to test things themselves as its true you can't really trust other information because most people assume or spout hearsay.

Yep, but eso is filled with unintuitive interactions and many of the best strategies are not obvious. Expecting new players to rehash 8 months of discovery and catch up without a frame of reference isn't realistic.

The best way to get the information is to be friend high level players or hope they are kind enough to answer questions. Most people aren't bold enough to just ask random people for info.

Its a community problem. The guys in this thread got rolled, but if they lacked info and faced a skilled player with high alliance rank, that's expected.

morvegil

NERF BOLT ESCAPE

NordJitsu

This game has an exceptionally high skill cap. Anyone who thinks differently is probably just a terrible player.

See, I can engage in ad hominem hyperbole too!

AhPook_Is_Here

This is exactly why they need to nerf dragon knights.

krim

Jaerlach wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Well I didn't meant to start all that, oh my.

Basically, Huntler, I was trying to say that there is a large difference in this game between those who know the limits of their class and those who don't. You can have hundreds of people with the same build but some will play it much, much better than others. I've fought DKs with Sypher's exact build before, and wrecked them over and over, whereas I can fight Sypher himself for over 10 minutes and be unable to take him down. To me, that shows that there's a fairly significant skill ceiling, in that builds and gear in and of themselves don't determine who wins.

Why that led into all this nonsense, I have no idea.

Absolutely there will be players who are better than others and I am sure there are 100 different reasons for it. Player skill definitely factors in, but maybe I've been getting sick of the amount of self-back patting people do on these forums and in this game, its ridiculous. While skill can be involved I don't think this game is particularly difficult, hell... the game was meant for a more casual playing base all you have to do is look at how the game was designed with limited skill options, only allowing 5 skills per bar, limited information so that players who want to have more choices/decisions to differentiate can't, etc.


And then a bunch of people got offended for self-esteem issues or whatever it is.

Say what you like about difficulty, but this game does have one major barrier to improvement: information is hard to acquire. You have to meet/ask strong players because build and skill information is not publicized by good sources. Deltia is often the only decent Web based source.

New players have a huge knowledge gap because of this.

Execution may not be harder than other games, but learning how things work certainly is.

This is a good point and completely fair. I'd encourage players to test things themselves as its true you can't really trust other information because most people assume or spout hearsay.

Yep, but eso is filled with unintuitive interactions and many of the best strategies are not obvious. Expecting new players to rehash 8 months of discovery and catch up without a frame of reference isn't realistic.

The best way to get the information is to be friend high level players or hope they are kind enough to answer questions. Most people aren't bold enough to just ask random people for info.

Its a community problem. The guys in this thread got rolled, but if they lacked info and faced a skilled player with high alliance rank, that's expected.

Yep then theres applying what you know. How aware are you. Your reaction time. Knowing your opponents and being able to think ahead. BIG PLAYS not everyone is capable of.

OrangeTheCat

Rylana wrote: »

Never ever chase a bolt sorc. Everyone stealth and get within 10m of each other. Not stacked (bolt escape will ruin your day if you stack) but close to each other, and then set out a tank as bait.

Sorc ded.

Sorc fishing. I like.

Sypher

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

This is exactly why they need to nerf dragon knights.

Hell yeah!


OT: This game does have a high skill cap. You can always be improving your positioning, reaction time, and situational awareness. These 3 things alone are skills that take a lot of time to discover and improve.

Galalin

I still think the most important thing to successfull PvP is knowing and understanding the different class abilities, skills and builds and how they are all used. Then learn how to counter the different builds or which builds your current build may be weak against and should shy away from taking fights with.

Once you learn to recognize what builds your fighting and how to counter them PvP gets alot easier.

Knowledge is power. Knowing your foe and his/her weaknesses is not only key but crucial to being great in PvP

Rylana

Jaerlach wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Well I didn't meant to start all that, oh my.

Basically, Huntler, I was trying to say that there is a large difference in this game between those who know the limits of their class and those who don't. You can have hundreds of people with the same build but some will play it much, much better than others. I've fought DKs with Sypher's exact build before, and wrecked them over and over, whereas I can fight Sypher himself for over 10 minutes and be unable to take him down. To me, that shows that there's a fairly significant skill ceiling, in that builds and gear in and of themselves don't determine who wins.

Why that led into all this nonsense, I have no idea.

Absolutely there will be players who are better than others and I am sure there are 100 different reasons for it. Player skill definitely factors in, but maybe I've been getting sick of the amount of self-back patting people do on these forums and in this game, its ridiculous. While skill can be involved I don't think this game is particularly difficult, hell... the game was meant for a more casual playing base all you have to do is look at how the game was designed with limited skill options, only allowing 5 skills per bar, limited information so that players who want to have more choices/decisions to differentiate can't, etc.


And then a bunch of people got offended for self-esteem issues or whatever it is.

Say what you like about difficulty, but this game does have one major barrier to improvement: information is hard to acquire. You have to meet/ask strong players because build and skill information is not publicized by good sources. Deltia is often the only decent Web based source.

New players have a huge knowledge gap because of this.

Execution may not be harder than other games, but learning how things work certainly is.

This is a good point and completely fair. I'd encourage players to test things themselves as its true you can't really trust other information because most people assume or spout hearsay.

Yep, but eso is filled with unintuitive interactions and many of the best strategies are not obvious. Expecting new players to rehash 8 months of discovery and catch up without a frame of reference isn't realistic.

The best way to get the information is to be friend high level players or hope they are kind enough to answer questions. Most people aren't bold enough to just ask random people for info.

Its a community problem. The guys in this thread got rolled, but if they lacked info and faced a skilled player with high alliance rank, that's expected.

Not to mention that build testing is EXTREMELY expensive at the high end. 20k respecs + 100k for a suit of gear just to find out it didnt work out how you planned?

Yeah, I get some people are rich, but 120kish gold for a testbed (because most of the good builds now are based around 20k-a-piece trial sets or other hard to acquire pieces) is prohibitive in and of itself.

I saw huntler bash warlock seducer earlier in the thread, combined with weapon damage that build is devastating for bombing, you just keep on pumping out the damage.

Are there better niche combinations for similar purposes? Sure, but you have to go into the six figures to acquire them (or grind your ass off). A gold upgraded seducer/warlock is still one of the most viable and flexible magicka build setups out there.



However, I do agree with Huntler on his original sentiment. This is by far the easiest PvP game I have ever played, in terms of "skill"

Build and synergy is everything really, timing secondary to position, but even then theres a huge margin for error.

Rylana

Galalin wrote: »

I still think the most important thing to successfull PvP is knowing and understanding the different class abilities, skills and builds and how they are all used. Then learn how to counter the different builds or which builds your current build may be weak against and should shy away from taking fights with.

Once you learn to recognize what builds your fighting and how to counter them PvP gets alot easier.

Knowledge is power. Knowing your foe and his/her weaknesses is not only key but crucial to being great in PvP

And this is exactly why I played one of each class into vet levels. Only my sorc is still not v14, but halfway there anyway.

Derra

No MMO is hard to play mechanically for ppl that know how to press more then 5 buttons on their keyboard. But the statement ESO has a low pvp-skill ceiling compared to other games in its genre is completely false imho.

You have a huge pool of active abilities and morphs along with a crapton of sets you can combine on your char one way or the other. Seeing through this requires either dedication through testing yourself or reading some guides. In guides you generally won´t find all good builds played as some players tend to be secretive about their builds and generelly dislike exchanging information (i am one of them. Oh good lord i´m the most special snowflake there is i just know it).

Whats hard in ESO is figuring out your opponents build and a way to counter it with your skills of choice. Most Players hardly know their own class because they never tested anything. You´ve got to know the abilities of all four classes. It´s an information game with some low mechanical tasks required.


I get your point huntler. Ofc a lot of good players left ESO after the initial problems. I tended to have the same thoughts on that subject in the past. However accounting to that logic all good players must have left ESO. You´re completely dismissing that some of the good ones might still play the game because they enjoyed it anyway.
Ofc competition forces you to evolve moreso then just selfset goals. But the remaining "elitist" players certainly made progress in some form. Nothing humans to for their fun and for selfset goals stagnates. Never change a running system is something you won´t encounter with things humans do as hobbies.

You can´t state all good players left and thus there is no skill left simply because there is no way for you to prove that only the baddies stayed and are now fighting for the crown of a steaming pile of crap. This is also contradicted by the huge gap in (whatever you want to call it? maybe ability to push the right buttons) you encounter everyday in pvp.
Either you say the mmo genre in general requires no skill at all thus ruling out every skill discussion in the first place (there are no good or bad players) or you have to admit that there are in fact (domain specific) skilled players in eso.

Edit:

Rylana wrote: »

However, I do agree with Huntler on his original sentiment. This is by far the easiest PvP game I have ever played, in terms of "skill"

Build and synergy is everything really, timing secondary to position, but even then theres a huge margin for error.

Strange. Out of all new age mmos i played of the post wow era i find eso to be the most demanding on the player in pvp (the ones i played pvp in being: warhammer, aion, aoc, rift, swtor, gw2)

Teargrants

Rylana wrote: »

And this is exactly why I played one of each class into vet levels. Only my sorc is still not v14, but halfway there anyway.

I must teach you the Way of Blinky Blink, but only if you follow Dee Tick and use ball of light. Streak is tainted by Ohh Tick.

Eglath

Game isn't really hard itself, problem comes from variety of skills ppl use, and combat mechanics. Just by knowing your positioning, movement and keeping eye on your opponents you can be a skilled player even while using heavy attacks only. If you take it to higher lvl and start recognizing opponent's build and how to counter his skills, bam! you are pro.
Sorc can be very mobile and has burst potential, if he manges to catch bunch of unexperienced players without awereness of their surrroundings, he can easily pick them one by one.

Wreuntzylla

Knowledge ceiling. Not skill ceiling.

Sometimes I read a tool tip and it says "mayonnaise," but when I try it out it's Miracle Whip. Wtf, you might as well have put battery acid in the jar. At least then I wouldn't have had to taste that crap.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

I click on this thread expecting another rant about a 1vX DK and this one is about a sorc?

Thanks for the laugh. They should nerf bolt escape or something.

Make bolt escape cost 1000 gold per use and make the DK battle roar passive give you 10% of the gold in your inventory as a campaign reward every time you use it.

NordJitsu

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Make bolt escape cost 1000 gold per use

There current solution seems to be just to make Bolt Escape not teleport you anywhere.

So its more like "Bolt-Stand-in-the-same-place-and-die".

Columba

we all know that the pro players use pulse monkey spam!

Satiar

Columba wrote: »

we all know that the pro players use pulse monkey spam!

One of these days you'll have to come off that. Having AoE on your bar is not a crime, or a sign of a poor player.

Columba

intentionally lagging out the server with it is, lol.

Etaniel

Columba wrote: »

intentionally lagging out the server with it is, lol.

Lagging out the server doesn't come from a few people spamming impulse. It comes from an organized group of usually 20+ people moving in a tight stack spamming not only impulse but healing springs and any other spell for that matter. I wouldn't have a problem with those groups if it didn't melt the servers

Columba

Etaniel wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

intentionally lagging out the server with it is, lol.

Lagging out the server doesn't come from a few people spamming impulse. It comes from an organized group of usually 20+ people moving in a tight stack spamming not only impulse but healing springs and any other spell for that matter. I wouldn't have a problem with those groups if it didn't melt the servers

Correct. Pulse, healing springs and batswarms. Others don't spam or reward spamming. I wouldn't care if they didn't lag the server out either.