Does talons have/supposed to have an immunity timer?

Cody

I request an answer from a ZOS PvP staff member(or class designer, whichever) for the question in the title.

Is talons supposed to have an immunty timer? if so, for how long?

i just faced a DK, that did nothing but block and spam talons/flame whip(you know, the usual DK) i rolled out of the talons, then got re-taloned... rolled out... re-taloned yet again......

someone told me a while back it was supposed to have a 3 second immunity timer. I was like "Yay! now i may be able to actually fight DKs!" but nope:/ still get taloned to death.

So either there is no immunity timer, there is but its not working for whatever reason, or i just can't count 3 seconds in the heat of battle.

Soris

Cody wrote: »

i rolled out of the talons, then got re-taloned... rolled out... re-taloned yet again......

*sigh*

Jacques Berge

Nope, no immunity sadly... Still very beatable. DKs have very good skills, but those skills are very expensive.

Koensol

Afaik there is a 3 sec immunity against roots, but its damn near unnoticable.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I've never seen an immunity, and it is what makes a skill like Talons OP. Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

All roots need to have an immunity timer, because right now 'soft CC' is more effective than 'hard CC' for this very reason, and it makes no sense.

Sharee

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

Depends on your build. For my stamina NB, redguard, werewolf, 7/7 medium, stamina cost reduction enchants (they reduce roll cost as well), talons are a non-factor because i am rolling around anyway even without talons, just to make flame whips miss.

Thechemicals

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I've never seen an immunity, and it is what makes a skill like Talons OP. Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

All roots need to have an immunity timer, because right now 'soft CC' is more effective than 'hard CC' for this very reason, and it makes no sense.

Talons is not that dangerous. The one you want to dodge roll out of is the one that immobilizes you in a dk standard. You can simply stand in it and continue your range or melee dps. I have killed Dk's while taloned. Its not a hard stun, just immoblizer.

Cody

Jacques Berge wrote: »

Nope, no immunity sadly... Still very beatable. DKs have very good skills, but those skills are very expensive.

me having to constantly roll is twice as expensive as a skill they have a near 50% reduction too....(unless its a DK in HA)

Cody

so it does not have an immunity timer? ok.

guess i will have to find a way to further reduce rolling costs, or just stand in it and get killed by the DoT/physical damage

Isbilen

Cody wrote: »

guess i will have to find a way to further reduce rolling costs, or just stand in it and get killed by the DoT/physical damage

The super dangerous 300 blockable and 40/sec damage.

Cody

Isbilen wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

guess i will have to find a way to further reduce rolling costs, or just stand in it and get killed by the DoT/physical damage

The super dangerous 300 blockable and 40/sec damage.

Are you saying talons is blockable?

im confused:/

LegacyDM

Sharee wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

Depends on your build. For my stamina NB, redguard, werewolf, 7/7 medium, stamina cost reduction enchants (they reduce roll cost as well), talons are a non-factor because i am rolling around anyway even without talons, just to make flame whips miss.

This is ubsurd. The fact that you have to design an entire build around mitigating perm talons.

LegacyDM

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I've never seen an immunity, and it is what makes a skill like Talons OP. Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

All roots need to have an immunity timer, because right now 'soft CC' is more effective than 'hard CC' for this very reason, and it makes no sense.

This

danno8

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Even if you roll out, they just do it again, and it costs more resources for you to keep rolling out of it than for them to cast it. That is the problem.

Depends on your build. For my stamina NB, redguard, werewolf, 7/7 medium, stamina cost reduction enchants (they reduce roll cost as well), talons are a non-factor because i am rolling around anyway even without talons, just to make flame whips miss.

This is ubsurd. The fact that you have to design an entire build around mitigating perm talons.

I don't believe it is "designed around mitigating talons". It is just a high stamina/stamina regen build that allows you to be very evasive against all builds. If you want to use weapon skills it is just going to be this kind of build.

It is a nice side effect that it can negate some DK Talons.

Cody

Well I can say for absolute certainty, after almost two weeks of testing, that talons DOES NOT have an immunity timer; and if it does, then it's just not working for me. I have faced a talon spammer and other DKs that used it only a few times during battle; not once, after rolling out of any talon, was I granted any kind of immunity/immunity timer.

Not trying to turn this into a "DKs are OP" thread, just pointing out an ability that i think needs some adjustment.

Domander

Cody wrote: »

Well I can say for absolute certainty, after almost two weeks of testing, that talons DOES NOT have an immunity timer; and if it does, then it's just not working for me. I have faced a talon spammer and other DKs that used it only a few times during battle; not once, after rolling out of any talon, was I granted any kind of immunity/immunity timer.

Not trying to turn this into a "DKs are OP" thread, just pointing out an ability that i think needs some adjustment.

I can tell you've never ever been on the DK side of a fight like this. The DK is trying to keep you in range so that they can actually attack you.

Cody

Domander wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Well I can say for absolute certainty, after almost two weeks of testing, that talons DOES NOT have an immunity timer; and if it does, then it's just not working for me. I have faced a talon spammer and other DKs that used it only a few times during battle; not once, after rolling out of any talon, was I granted any kind of immunity/immunity timer.

Not trying to turn this into a "DKs are OP" thread, just pointing out an ability that i think needs some adjustment.

I can tell you've never ever been on the DK side of a fight like this. The DK is trying to keep you in range so that they can actually attack you.

That is true, However, If i have to spend an entire battle rolling when fighting a DK with my melee build, all because he/she wants to get easy damage with talons that i have almost no means to fight, i take a small issue with it.

I am not asking for a huge immunity timer... just 2-3 seconds would be just fine with me. and no, I am not asking for this change just so my build can kill DKs. My build would still be unable to kill Talon using DKs even if an immunity timer was in place, I just dont believe DKs should be able to keep people perma rooted for 99% of the battle, WHILE doing instant damage on cast, PLUS a DoT effect against whoever they cast it on. I personally think thats a bit much power to give one ability.

Domander

Cody wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Well I can say for absolute certainty, after almost two weeks of testing, that talons DOES NOT have an immunity timer; and if it does, then it's just not working for me. I have faced a talon spammer and other DKs that used it only a few times during battle; not once, after rolling out of any talon, was I granted any kind of immunity/immunity timer.

Not trying to turn this into a "DKs are OP" thread, just pointing out an ability that i think needs some adjustment.

I can tell you've never ever been on the DK side of a fight like this. The DK is trying to keep you in range so that they can actually attack you.

That is true, However, If i have to spednd an entire battle rolling when fighting a DK with my melee build, all because he/she wants to get easy damage with talons that i have almost no means to fight, i take a small issue with it.

I am not asking for a huge immunity timer... just 2-3 seconds would be just fine with me.

Seems like a bad strategy to roll out of talons to avoid the dot, It's a fast dot and the instant physical damage is higher than the dot. Rolling out to reposition isn't a bad strategy.

If you break free I think that is supposed make you immune to talons. If you added an immunity timer to roll dodge DKs couldn't keep anyone in range, and would waste tons of magicka trying. Full light + seducer and talons still costs 299 with a base cost of 420, you can't spam it forever. It's actually a terrible strategy on the DK's part to just sit there, block, and spam talons.

Sorcs immobilize is even more expensive and does no damage. (unless you morph it to do damage)

The nightblade one has a really short timer (cripple morph) so it would suffer a lot also.

Cody

Domander wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Well I can say for absolute certainty, after almost two weeks of testing, that talons DOES NOT have an immunity timer; and if it does, then it's just not working for me. I have faced a talon spammer and other DKs that used it only a few times during battle; not once, after rolling out of any talon, was I granted any kind of immunity/immunity timer.

Not trying to turn this into a "DKs are OP" thread, just pointing out an ability that i think needs some adjustment.

I can tell you've never ever been on the DK side of a fight like this. The DK is trying to keep you in range so that they can actually attack you.

That is true, However, If i have to spednd an entire battle rolling when fighting a DK with my melee build, all because he/she wants to get easy damage with talons that i have almost no means to fight, i take a small issue with it.

I am not asking for a huge immunity timer... just 2-3 seconds would be just fine with me.

Seems like a bad strategy to roll out of talons to avoid the dot, It's a fast dot and the instant physical damage is higher than the dot. Rolling out to reposition isn't a bad strategy.

If you break free I think that is supposed make you immune to talons. If you added an immunity timer to roll dodge DKs couldn't keep anyone in range, and would waste tons of magicka trying. Full light + seducer and talons still costs 299 with a base cost of 420, you can't spam it forever. It's actually a terrible strategy on the DK's part to just sit there, block, and spam talons.

Sorcs immobilize is even more expensive and does no damage. (unless you morph it to do damage)

The nightblade one has a really short timer (cripple morph) so it would suffer a lot also.

Yeah. Talons seems like one of the only roots that actually works. then again I am also a glass cannon, so it has something to do with me.

I don't hate the ability itself, i just hate people that spam it; and i have had people use it a ridiculous amount of times. How people have THAT much mana, I will likely never know.

You ever use Agony? hint: don't. Prime example of a terrible root ability.

Bipolo

Just to let you in on some basic information:

You can purge Talons with Efficient Purge / Purify Synergy.

Retreating Maneuver equals 20sec immunity to Snares/Roots until you decide to attack.

Dodge Rolling in Medium Armor is generally more cost efficient then spamming Talons in Light Armor (Different sets do play a role here)

Tri Stat / Stamina Potions, for critical moments like:
Low Stamina>Stuck in Talons>DK drops Standard =
Chug Potion>Roll>Bunny Jump to troll DK without Shifting Standard, lol

- Easiest way to escape/deal with a Talon spammer is to Snare/Root>Dodge Roll (by doing this the Talon spammer is forced to waste his own Stamina on Rolling OR Magicka on Purge to keep up. This drains offensive resources, less Invasion>Talons)

Merry Yule

david.haypreub18_ESO

Bipolo wrote: »

Just to let you in on some basic information:

You can purge Talons with Efficient Purge / Purify Synergy.

Retreating Maneuver equals 20sec immunity to Snares/Roots until you decide to attack.

Dodge Rolling in Medium Armor is generally more cost efficient then spamming Talons in Light Armor (Different sets do play a role here)

Tri Stat / Stamina Potions, for critical moments like:
Low Stamina>Stuck in Talons>DK drops Standard =
Chug Potion>Roll>Bunny Jump to troll DK without Shifting Standard, lol

- Easiest way to escape/deal with a Talon spammer is to Snare/Root>Dodge Roll (by doing this the Talon spammer is forced to waste his own Stamina on Rolling OR Magicka on Purge to keep up. This drains offensive resources, less Invasion>Talons)

All good points. However:

--With Purge, you can choose either Cleanse or Efficient Purge morphs. If you choose Cleanse, you get a heal for the damage you take from Talons, but Cleanse costs about twice as much as Talons. If you choose Efficient Purge, then you get the cost down to about what Talons costs, but you give up the heal, so even when you cast it you take some damage. Either way, the DK comes out ahead.

--Retreating Maneuver costs a lot more in resources than Talons costs to cast, and it prevents you from attacking to boot. Again, the DK comes out ahead.

--Dodge Rolling only costs less than Talons if you are in medium and specced for stamina. For most people, it is not an option... and even worse, it costs precious stamina (which is used for blocking and break free as well), whereas Talons costs mana. Usually in PvP, it is the first person to run out of stamina that looses.

So again, there are very, very few instances where you come out ahead of the DK. And that is why the skill is overpowered.

Bouvin

This, Sorc Escape Bolt Stun, NB fear, etc. need Immunity timers.

At the least, add the timers for PvP.

Cody

Bipolo wrote: »

Just to let you in on some basic information:

You can purge Talons with Efficient Purge / Purify Synergy.

Retreating Maneuver equals 20sec immunity to Snares/Roots until you decide to attack.

Dodge Rolling in Medium Armor is generally more cost efficient then spamming Talons in Light Armor (Different sets do play a role here)

Tri Stat / Stamina Potions, for critical moments like:
Low Stamina>Stuck in Talons>DK drops Standard =
Chug Potion>Roll>Bunny Jump to troll DK without Shifting Standard, lol

- Easiest way to escape/deal with a Talon spammer is to Snare/Root>Dodge Roll (by doing this the Talon spammer is forced to waste his own Stamina on Rolling OR Magicka on Purge to keep up. This drains offensive resources, less Invasion>Talons)

Merry Yule

I have 2K stamina in all medium armor, all passives and i still run out of stamina from roling out of these freaking talons..

If there are any OP DK builds, it is the talon spammer build, as talons, due to the lack of an immunity timer being granted once rolling out, allows a DK to keep you perma taloned, and talons does damage each time it damages you, so you are choosing the lesser of two evils in this scenario.

rapid manuverer is disabled as soon as you attack, purge will not work for me, as i am a stamina build; i cannot continually cast purge over and over again, it costs about 600 mana for me, and i, again being a stamina build, dont have a lot of mana. Not all of us go all Light armor.(which is also the reason i cannot continually purge it with dark cloak)

I suppose i could try the counter-root method.... will have to use hidden blade as soon as i get it then.

Cody

Bouvin wrote: »

This, Sorc Escape Bolt Stun, NB fear, etc. need Immunity timers.

At the least, add the timers for PvP.

I don't believe BE should stun people in the first place; its supposed to be an escape skill... yet it works so well in offense as well... but its been nerfed enough times.

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO

some of the mitigating strategies can work - but as has been already stated at a higher cost to the defender than those talon spammers - against a single DK spamming talons.
Now in PvP you usually get several doing that - and it being an area effect - each single cast effecting lots of people in our typical siege crowd. This favors the talons even more, as more people have to do nothing else but getting out of those talons, meaning less damage and heal for the rest.

This skill seriously needs an overhaul as in either having a cast time (with no blocking while casting), be single target and/or (preferred) an immunity towards all stuns (from any source) of at least 3 seconds for anyone breaking out of it.

And while at it, bat swarms of any variety should remove any stun or root on any target standing in that area of that swarm from any source.