Spell Crafting

Ommamar

This was mentioned in another thread. I would like to know what you have heard and whats your thoughts are on it. Any video expanding on it would be great here is one I saw on it from Quake Con:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkeMacg-b0

ers101284b14_ESO

It's going to suck until they fix the fix that fixes the fixes that fixed it. Then its going to be AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Aoife32001

As long as it closely follows what we have seen in previous Elder Scrolls game (with suitable adjustments made for an mmo format), I think it's going to be great! I am very much looking forward to it! Unfortunately, I have heard nothing about it since its mention in that presentation, other than it is on the back burner after the Champion/Justice systems.

NotSo

I remember in Oblivion when I couldn't delete my created spells and a made a new character just to be rid of the clutter and bad spelling of my baby self.

AlexDougherty

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

I remember in Oblivion when I couldn't delete my created spells and a made a new character just to be rid of the clutter and bad spelling of my baby self.

Um, You could use console commands got rid off unwanted spells, unless you played Oblivion on a Console (which ironically doesn't have console commands )

jeanette

I really like the flexibility! I think it will feel more like I'm actually creating a spell, instead of just finding one that is basically finished already. More freedom and personal. I'm very much looking forward to the diversity, and hope my expectations aren't too high...

NotSo

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ommamar

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

It sounded like there will be the ability to craft spells that have been used in past ES games. Such as muffle, damage cloaks (fire,shock, frost), conjure Flame Atronach and familiar, restore stamina, restore health, and the standard destruction spells, based on existing abilities I would expect invisibility as well. It would be cool if there was a levitate ability as well but not sure how that would mess with pvp All of varying degrees and cost, although it is hazy to me exactly what the cost will be. I am guessing mana but wasn't specified. There was also mention of an ability like dark exchange except magic for stamina.

Leeric

It will make sorcerers even more awesome, or completely destroy the class lol.

Dagoth_Rac

It sounded nice. It was going to work similar to Enchanting. You could mix and match different Spellcrafting materials to make a "Fire Attack, Single Target, Ultimate". Change one mat and it would be a "Poison Attack, Single Target, Ultimate". Change a different mat and it would be, "Fire Attack, Single Target, Skill". Change two different mats and it would be, "Fire Attack, AoE, Skill".

That is just a simple example. There would be options for immediate damage versus damage over time. Instant cast for moderate damage or a casting time to get higher damage. Add CC at the cost of reduced damage, etc.

At least that was the impression I got.

So you could build spells to go all out on, say, single target damage. Or you could build spells to make a balanced character with a mix of single-target, AoE, CC, DoT, etc.

NotSo

If i could have a full bar of magic aoe skills then it'll take me back to my ragnarok online days.

AlexDougherty

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

reagen_lionel

I look forward to it. Theres alot of missing schools of spells such as mysticism (which existed in this time), Illusion, and alteration spells. And some destruction spells thats missing like Lightning Rune, and elemental cloaks.

zaria

jeanette wrote: »

I really like the flexibility! I think it will feel more like I'm actually creating a spell, instead of just finding one that is basically finished already. More freedom and personal. I'm very much looking forward to the diversity, and hope my expectations aren't too high...

See some benefit if properly balanced, like having DOT or debuffs, also specialized spells, for various bosses or enemy types.
Would help sorcerers a lot as they have excellent magic regen but lack of high damage spells. Simply being able to tweak existing spells would help a lot.

Gyudan

zaria wrote: »

See some benefit if properly balanced, like having DOT or debuffs, also specialized spells, for various bosses or enemy types.

I think Spellcrafting will either make or break ESO. It looks very good so far.

adriant1978

It's my most wanted feature and I wish it was coming sooner.

I have many alts and love trying out new builds, but there are limits on what you can do with the same old class skills. Can't wait to be able to add an extra layer of customization. New summons like the Flame Atronach will be especially welcome.

zaria

Gyudan wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

See some benefit if properly balanced, like having DOT or debuffs, also specialized spells, for various bosses or enemy types.

I think Spellcrafting will either make or break ESO. It looks very good so far.

The champion system is far harder to implement and will have far more impact than spellcrafting. Spellcrafting will get multiple changes after its introduced.

Kind of hope they start slow with it and rater expand.

diabeticDemon18

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

Unless they processed the spell client side and send back a simple integer variable for each type of spell. That wouldn't be too bad

AlexDougherty

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

Unless they processed the spell client side and send back a simple integer variable for each type of spell. That wouldn't be too bad

But wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to hacks?
I'm not against that if they have some sort of safeguards in place, just a bit weary of anything that puts too much on the client side (because someone will try a hack).

diabeticDemon18

AlexDougherty wrote: »

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

Unless they processed the spell client side and send back a simple integer variable for each type of spell. That wouldn't be too bad

But wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to hacks?
I'm not against that if they have some sort of safeguards in place, just a bit weary of anything that puts too much on the client side (because someone will try a hack).

Ahhhh, you're right. That could open up some sort of hacks. I hate hackers, they ruin all the fun. If people didn't try to break things on purpose, then they could make games much more powerful because you could process things on both client and server side. But, if they could somehow safeguard it, then I think that would be the most efficient way of it processing what spell you're using

AlexDougherty

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

Unless they processed the spell client side and send back a simple integer variable for each type of spell. That wouldn't be too bad

But wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to hacks?
I'm not against that if they have some sort of safeguards in place, just a bit weary of anything that puts too much on the client side (because someone will try a hack).

Ahhhh, you're right. That could open up some sort of hacks. I hate hackers, they ruin all the fun. If people didn't try to break things on purpose, then they could make games much more powerful because you could process things on both client and server side. But, if they could somehow safeguard it, then I think that would be the most efficient way of it processing what spell you're using

Yes, I agree, if they could safeguard it, then it would be the best way to do it. Not sure how they could safeguard it, bt then I'm not a programmer. And yeah, it is a shame that some people try to break everything.

zaria

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

diabeticDemon18 wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

Unless they processed the spell client side and send back a simple integer variable for each type of spell. That wouldn't be too bad

But wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to hacks?
I'm not against that if they have some sort of safeguards in place, just a bit weary of anything that puts too much on the client side (because someone will try a hack).

Ahhhh, you're right. That could open up some sort of hacks. I hate hackers, they ruin all the fun. If people didn't try to break things on purpose, then they could make games much more powerful because you could process things on both client and server side. But, if they could somehow safeguard it, then I think that would be the most efficient way of it processing what spell you're using

It don't have to, not sure how things work today, if I cast spell A who cost 100 magic and do 100 damage, how is this accounted for.
Remember that damage is depended on spell power while enchants reduce magic costs so you has to do plenty of calculations to get the right value.

The custom spell Ax2F who does 200 frost damage for 200 magic just adds some more variables.

It would be just as easy to spoof something like crunching shock who has multiple damage components.

Either the spell effects will be fixed like for enchanting or they will have an formula for casting cost for damage.

kewl

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It's going to suck until they fix the fix that fixes the fixes that fixed it. Then its going to be AWESOME!!!!!!!!

Xzibit...is that you?

Merlin13KAGL

If you disregard the visuals, it's all basic data from an encoding point of view:

1. Every spell/skill has a cost, whether Magicka, Health, or Stamina. (two numbers in the easiest form or cost and type)
2. It then has one of three affected shapes: AoE (round), AoE Rectangle, AoE Cone.
3. It has a size (length/width) whose numbers would have different meanings based on the above.
4. It has a range (# for distance)
5. It has a target (Self, single, AoE again)
6. It has an effect (all basic spells/skills can be narrowed down to small list of applicable effects. Place these in pairs for the quantity and duration, add a third for initial effect, if applicable.)
7. It has a cooldown (or not)
8. It has a 'cast' time.
9. It has a special effect (Affects Attribute for x Seconds, etc)
10. Finally (for the simple version), it has an ID...same as every item in your inventory.

That's a handful of bytes if it's not optimized.

Look at it this way, the Client takes care of what to send based on what the definition allows.

The server checks the ID (Item in in the database that your character image either posesses or does not.) and compares the data sent to see if it fits with what's allowed.

It's really just an expanded version of what happens now, Client is set to do the work, Server just validates (or doesn't).

Hack the outgoing stream, and the server rejects it - no different than a bad packet, etc. For example, send frost damage out on a fire spell, and the server's gonna call BS, and it's ultimately the server side that matters (look at rubber banding, as a fine example of that).

If it's encoded well, there are so many combinations available. Same data is sent to anyone in visual/effected range. In fact, outgoing data is less, because the enemy doesn't care about the cooldown, just the result.

Think of it another way, if I give you three boxes, each with the ability to hold the number 1-10, there are 10 combinations for each box.

Put them together, and that combination of 10 becomes 1000 different possibilities.

Couple that with the fact that they will limit the number of effects on a given spell/skill to lower the processing and validation required, and it shouldn't have to be as programmatically intensive as it would seem.

Now whether or not they go about it this way...we'll have to see.

Ommamar

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

I think there will be a limit to the customization. You have search for each spell then it looked like there will be 5 options. So you could make your Flame Atronach have a damage cloak, or have greater range, a higher damage on the attack, make it an Ulitmate and I forget the last one or maybe he didn't say it. I expect that the recognition will be similar to potions. After a certain point you can make a wider variance using three ingredients instead of two but everyone who makes a pancea gets a unique identifier for that particular potion type.

Woolenthreads

Leeric wrote: »

It will make sorcerers even more awesome, or completely destroy the class lol.

Everyone will be able to do it, so I don't see how it will affect the Sorcerer class except by destroying all the classes with regards to magic spells.

AlexDougherty wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

@AlexDougherty‌ specifically on the ps3.

I imagine ESOs spellcrafting will work off of the already familiar spells/abilities we use now but allow a, albeit limited, form of customization. Limited for the sake of balance.

I haven't watched the Quake Con yet because I'm travelling and posting with my phone. I will update my input after watching.

Ah, well yeah, you couldn't delete spells on the consoles, which as I said was Ironic since the PC used Console Commands to get rid of them.

And yes I imagine the spell crafting will be limited, otherwise the lag from the server looking up what each crafted spell would be dire. Balance might be less of an issue since we could all craft the same spells, but the server having to remember fifty different variations of (say) Summon Fire Attronach (one I know is promised) would be unmanageable.

I think that, if the spell was formatted in a modular way, it shouldn't be any different than proccing stacked effects. Merlin13KAGL probably stated the same thing in a more detailed way .

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I shall make a skill that allows me to fly at 100mph shooting lightning balls at the ground below that turn into tigers made out of fire who shoot muffin guns at my enemies.

diabeticDemon18

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If you disregard the visuals, it's all basic data from an encoding point of view:

1. Every spell/skill has a cost, whether Magicka, Health, or Stamina. (two numbers in the easiest form or cost and type)
2. It then has one of three affected shapes: AoE (round), AoE Rectangle, AoE Cone.
3. It has a size (length/width) whose numbers would have different meanings based on the above.
4. It has a range (# for distance)
5. It has a target (Self, single, AoE again)
6. It has an effect (all basic spells/skills can be narrowed down to small list of applicable effects. Place these in pairs for the quantity and duration, add a third for initial effect, if applicable.)
7. It has a cooldown (or not)
8. It has a 'cast' time.
9. It has a special effect (Affects Attribute for x Seconds, etc)
10. Finally (for the simple version), it has an ID...same as every item in your inventory.

That's a handful of bytes if it's not optimized.

Look at it this way, the Client takes care of what to send based on what the definition allows.

The server checks the ID (Item in in the database that your character image either posesses or does not.) and compares the data sent to see if it fits with what's allowed.

It's really just an expanded version of what happens now, Client is set to do the work, Server just validates (or doesn't).

Hack the outgoing stream, and the server rejects it - no different than a bad packet, etc. For example, send frost damage out on a fire spell, and the server's gonna call BS, and it's ultimately the server side that matters (look at rubber banding, as a fine example of that).

If it's encoded well, there are so many combinations available. Same data is sent to anyone in visual/effected range. In fact, outgoing data is less, because the enemy doesn't care about the cooldown, just the result.

Think of it another way, if I give you three boxes, each with the ability to hold the number 1-10, there are 10 combinations for each box.

Put them together, and that combination of 10 becomes 1000 different possibilities.

Couple that with the fact that they will limit the number of effects on a given spell/skill to lower the processing and validation required, and it shouldn't have to be as programmatically intensive as it would seem.

Now whether or not they go about it this way...we'll have to see.

Yeah... what you said...

NotSo

Gotta get me dem +100 athletics for 1 second restoration spell, cost 34.

jeanette

I want there be something similar to spellcrafting to people who don't see their characters as mages. Perhaps you get a task from the fighters guild to track down old fighting techniques that you can alter in the same way as the spellcrafting, only that it uses stamina and doesn't look like a spell.

Merlin13KAGL

jeanette wrote: »

I want there be something similar to spellcrafting to people who don't see their characters as mages. Perhaps you get a task from the fighters guild to track down old fighting techniques that you can alter in the same way as the spellcrafting, only that it uses stamina and doesn't look like a spell.

@jeanette , I suspect they will have stamina based 'spells' you can create as well. If it's half as much like the stand alone's, you will be able to affect just about any aspect/attribute in some fashion.

I don't think they'll really be introducing new effects (new summons, perhaps), but I think they'll allow you to combine existing effects in various combinations, just as standalone spellcrafting did.

You don't have to be a mage to use magic anymore than you have to be a warrior to use a sword.