Fix for Bomb Trains & alot of other stuff easily Zenimax

Spangla

Here is how to fix the lag train and allow this horribly effective tactic to be dealt with.

The essence of the bomb train problem is not the players themselves, it is not them using glitchy skills etc to be invincible and deliberately lag out the server and ruin the pvp experience. The facts are that it is a stupidly efficient tactic that is personally not the way I envisaged PVP

Whatever your opinion on trains, the consequence of 20 people all standing tightly together and spamming aoe causes lag and creates a ridiculously OP group.

There are two ways to kill a bomb group - Firstly - The problematic way: Sheer numbers and siege whilst standing on top of each other and bombing. This, as many have seen causes massive lag and ruins PVP for everyone.

The second way is to cause the group to become less stacked. Consequently people get picked off at the back of the train. The problem is this though.

The better of the bomb groups all slot IMMOVABLE - Allowing the group to not get disrupted leaving only the stupid laggy way of killing them as an option.

If the group did not all run immovable the bomb train can be broken up effectively with volcanic runes, slows, dk leap ultimate, fear and a whole host of other abilities that would allow for the group to be scattered and picked off.

I genuinely think that if armour skills could only be used by wearing 5 pieces of the armour type then it would fix this bomb train problem and lots else in pvp.

There is no logical reason why 7/7 light armour wearers should have access to immovable. Otherwise the argument could be why cant i use impulse with a S+B? Ive learnt the skill so why cant I use it.

Ummm, obviously because,

Impulse: Staff skill/Requires staff
Immovable: Heavy Armour Skill/Requires Heavy Armour. (Should do anyway xd)

This seems so obvious to me.

I promise you Zenimax. Make armour skill require 5 pieces of the armour type to be worn to wear and you will solve a host of problems over night.

(Am now preparing for response comments QQ'ing because they run immovable and enjoy being OP)

Please try and look at this objectively:

Impulse: Staff skill/Requires staff
Immovable: Heavy Armour Skill/Requires Heavy Armour. (Should do anyway xd)

ThatNeonZebraAgain

I feel your pain. But the problem with limiting the armor abilities is that it limits hybrid or non-archetypal builds.

I think a better solution would be to just have it scale more steeply on either length or effectiveness based on how many of each type of that armor you're wearing. For example, Immovable without any heavy armor slotted, would only last 1-2 seconds (essentially a break-free), so spamming it without any Heavy Armor would use up stamina very quickly. Then each piece of heavy armor would add 1-1.5 seconds to the duration. Or, keep the duration as it is, but allow it to work on different types of CC for each piece of heavy armor you have on. So, without any heavy armor, it only works on 1 or 2 types of CC, with 1 piece, it adds another that it negates, and so on.

Spangla

Ok - Fine 2 pieces of heavy to use it, with efficiency based on how many pieces. The exact ins and outs I havent though about.

But I do feel that nobody can put forward a case as to why you can use it without using any pieces of heavy armour.

As I said why cant I use snipe with my duel wield then? Um because no bow obviously

This simple argument has to be acknowledged.

You get the passives without wearing the armour why do you get the skill lol

Gorthax

No, he is right. Make the armor abilities 5/5 in order to use it. It is a complete joke that someone who is using a full set of non essential gear for that ability can use that ability. End of story. There is literally nothing to debate over this topic. Just shows the poor design implementation of certain things.

xaraan

No. I'm primarily a PvEr, but have played my share of PvP. I think it should be kept as is myself. Not that big a deal when used against me and offers a type of shield/buff to classes that do not get them.

Cherryblossom

It's a nice thought, but still wouldn't stop a train.
I rarely run immovable as I have other skills I want to use and I've not really found stuns or knockbacks a huge issue.
To take a flag it is actually necessary to stack.
Impulse is redundant in the lag fest, as it stops doing damage.. Its only effective whilst running over single targets. I never use this skill and to be honest I only see it used by a few people in a train (mainly for the Max health reduction).
Not everyone runs just 7/7 light armour, most wear a 5 light 2 heavy for that extra armour. So on your basis they can still use it! (they are wearing Heavy, 5 piece's is a little extreme, you only have to carry one staff...)

To stop stacking will be difficult, I'm not saying your idea is without merit. It's important that they find ways to stop people stacking together without making it actually impossible to take an objective!

There were some ideas about new skills to do more damage when your hittng someone in a group in one of the ESO live. But I don't think we will ever see the end of trains they are just too effective

briandivisionb16_ESO

Bomb trains are ugly, and I agree not exactly 'visionary' PvP.
Remove AoE caps so we can compete.

Cherryblossom

The best way to stop AOE trains, add friendly fire!

Spangla

With respect xaraan - As a PVE'r i'm not sure that this effects you?

Cherryblossom - I have run in trains that use it as a mandatory skill and ones that don't make it mandatory. I promise you the ones that make it mandatory for at least 75% of people to run it work better. Also in my suggestion you would need 5 pieces.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

The best way to stop AOE trains, add friendly fire!

Yes, THAT is going to solve all problems in pvp...

Spangla

NN to remove aoe caps this could cause class balancing issues on a massive scale.

I'm convinced this could work. 5 Nb's could scatter the entire group with fear.

Cherryblossom

Spangla wrote: »

With respect xaraan - As a PVE'r i'm not sure that this effects you?

Cherryblossom - I have run in trains that use it as a mandatory skill and ones that don't make it mandatory. I promise you the ones that make it mandatory for at least 75% of people to run it work better. Also in my suggestion you would need 5 pieces.

The Trains I have run in, don't and they have been very effective!

I saw that in your post but as I said that's a bit much, it's only a skill like impulse as you mentioned which takes a staff.
When changing skills its important not to destroy the use of a skill in PVE which is why 5 items is to much to use one skill.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Spangla wrote: »

NN to remove aoe caps this could cause class balancing issues on a massive scale.

I'm convinced this could work. 5 Nb's could scatter the entire group with fear.

I'm in agreement with the AoE cap removal. But to clarify, the AoE cap refers to the 'hidden' cap for abilities like Impulse, or Ultimates like Veil of Blades, where a maximum number of targets is not specified and one would assume that it would affect everything inside its radius. NB's fear ability says in the tooltip that it only affects 2 enemies, so it's limit wouldn't change (though I think it should be increase, but that's a different story).

Spangla

Pretty sure this would be a tank skill in PVE.

If tanks don't use heavy armour to tank then perhaps this is indicative of a further issue....

Spangla

Remove Aoe caps and I feel there will be problems.

Talons - standard and impulse... hmm

Dominoid

The way the Champion System fundamentally changes how numbers work will help with a lot of the unbalanced hybrid builds while still allow hybrids to be a jack of all trades but not quite the master of any as opposed to a master of all as it is now. I think I said that right.

Details:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136702/how-the-champion-system-is-a-complete-overhaul-of-game-numbers/p1

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Spangla wrote: »

Pretty sure this would be a tank skill in PVE.

If tanks don't use heavy armour to tank then perhaps this is indicative of a further issue....

Good point

Mountain_Dewed

I broke one of these EP groups up last night on my own, but that just made a scattered mess of them and didn't help things much. I don't care much about it, if I crash, I'm back playing in under a minute and if I die, 10-20 seconds depending on how fast I select where to go.

I'm not saying the lag doesn't bother me, just that these fools that think they are 1-up-ing everyone don't bother me one bit.

LonePirate

There are a couple of incorrect assumptions by the OP.

First, not all of these trains - certainly not all of the people in them - use Immovable. More of them use Barrier than Immovable. Some of them use Annulment or its morphs because of the longer duration.

Secondly, players can be decked out in 5 heavy and 2 light with those two pieces of light being Warlock pieces to accompany 3 pieces of Warlock jewelry which offers access to the huge Magicka flood bonus. Those players would be permitted to use Immovable and they are very tough kill.

I would recommend the OP seek other solutions that address the problem instead of tossing out ideas that do nothing. A few players using Caltrops, Fire Rune, Daedric Mines and an oil pot catapult, if it can be positioned, all help slow down and disband these trains.

Cherryblossom

Spangla wrote: »

Pretty sure this would be a tank skill in PVE.

If tanks don't use heavy armour to tank then perhaps this is indicative of a further issue....

Why would this be an issue, most classes have special skills to give them survivability without having to resort to heavy armour.
You are pigeonholing tanks into a specific pre-conceived idea, the idea of the game is to allow variety, whilst some follow the cookie cutter builds not everyone does and they are still effective.

Aett_Thorn

Best way to break up these groups? Reliable instant-damage ranged AoEs. If spellcrafting can give us those, then maybe these bunched groups will be more of a suicide than a good tactic.

Spangla

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Pretty sure this would be a tank skill in PVE.

If tanks don't use heavy armour to tank then perhaps this is indicative of a further issue....

Why would this be an issue, most classes have special skills to give them survivability without having to resort to heavy armour.
You are pigeonholing tanks into a specific pre-conceived idea, the idea of the game is to allow variety, whilst some follow the cookie cutter builds not everyone does and they are still effective.

Just lol.... You clearly have no idea of the implications if some class can tank using their "class" abilities and still hold almost as high damage as light armour wearers.

This amuses me to the point where I cant explain to you why this is a problem as if you dont understand already not sure you ever will:)

Spangla

LonePirate wrote: »

There are a couple of incorrect assumptions by the OP.

First, not all of these trains - certainly not all of the people in them - use Immovable. More of them use Barrier than Immovable. Some of them use Annulment or its morphs because of the longer duration.

Secondly, players can be decked out in 5 heavy and 2 light with those two pieces of light being Warlock pieces to accompany 3 pieces of Warlock jewelry which offers access to the huge Magicka flood bonus. Those players would be permitted to use Immovable and they are very tough kill.

I would recommend the OP seek other solutions that address the problem instead of tossing out ideas that do nothing. A few players using Caltrops, Fire Rune, Daedric Mines and an oil pot catapult, if it can be positioned, all help slow down and disband these trains.

1, Personally i'd love to come across your train. 4 of our sorc will negate 1 after the other and you will wipe instantly. Your negates however would be useless as we run immovable and are therefore immune to it.

2, If they are decked in 5 heavy then I am not scared, damage will be very low as the spell penetration will be nowhere near enough to cause a problem. They will be tanky but wont wreck people in the same way.

3, I would recommend you take a less sanctimonious tone -

"I would recommend the OP seek other solutions that address the problem instead of tossing out ideas that do nothing."

With just one example, negate I already know the trains you speak of would get wiped by the more elite ones who run immovable. Im pretty sure you are criticizing my ideas with very limited experience to what it is that they refer.

Try and come up with some ideas of your own instead of putting forward responses for the sake of it that entail no substance:)