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Dodge Chance - Set Bonus vs Shuffle, Do They Stack?

Merrak
Merrak
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@ZOS_GaryA‌

Can you get any details about Dodge Set Bonuses working with or overriding Dodge Abilities?

For instance:
Hist Bark (5 Piece Set) gives 18% Dodge chance while blocking.
Elude (Medium Armor Ability) gives 15% Dodge chance while active.

Do these abilities actually stack, or does one override the other? If they stacked, it should come out to a 33% Dodge Chance combined, but we just don't have the numbers to support either claim.

There has been speculation about this for over 5 months now, and with my current build, I can't seem to have definitive answers.
Merrak |Guild Leader
Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
http://forgebreaker.net
  • ZOS_GaryA
    ZOS_GaryA
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    Hey there @Merrak,

    We can take a look! We'll be sure to report back once we have more information.
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  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    Thank you sir! I look forward to your reply.
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • Mujuro
    Mujuro
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    @ZOS_GaryA I'd also like to know the answer to this, and with use in conjunction with Nightblade Blur/Mirage, as it seems that "dodge" (Hist Bark, Evasion/Elude) and "miss chance" (Blur/Mirage) may be handled differently?
    Edited by Mujuro on November 19, 2014 5:42PM
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  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    Also Spectre's Eye set.
    It seems like these should stack perhaps with a cap.

    Miss chance seems to be useless with bosses since they can't miss. Shouldn't there still be a chance, perhaps a lower chance, if you use a skill.
  • leandro.800ub17_ESO
    leandro.800ub17_ESO
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    I have tanked bosses that do miss. Ofc only melee ones
  • ZOS_GaryA
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    Hey there folks,

    For some additional clarification, dodge does indeed stack. We're unable to get into the specifics of each ability interaction, but the dodge stat doesn't go to waste. Hope that helps a bit!
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  • leandro.800ub17_ESO
    leandro.800ub17_ESO
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    Many thanks . I will use them more.
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    It does indeed help. Thank you @ZOS_GaryA‌ . I'm curious to know if maybe what some people are thinking they see is a Diminishing Return on Dodge Chance? The community concern was that they didn't feel they saw any difference between using Hist Bark (or Spectre's Eye) set bonuses by itself vs. while using Evasion at the same time.

    I'm sure there are many background mechanics at play here, was just hoping to get some form of clarity. Thank you again Gary!
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    @ZOS_GaryA‌
    I hate to beat a dead guar here, but would it be possible to give us any other insight into how they are stacking? Are they separate rolls in the mitigation RNG, or is there something that we are missing?

    The current per other members speculation is that something isn't working. A user on Tamriel Foundry did 3 sets of 1000 attacks.
    • With no block and only using Evasion, total dodge percentage over 1000 attacks is 14.7%.
    • With just blocking using Hist Bark set of gear, total dodge percent over 1000 attacks is 18.4%.
    • With both blocking using the Hist Bark set and activating Evasion, total dodge percentage over 1000 attacks is 18.4%

    Obviously this could be RNG, and you could spend countless hours attempting to find an answer, but unfortunately the assumption is that either something is broken or they do not actually stack.

    Let me know if you need any more info. I'll try to run some testing myself tonight as well and add to the feedback.

    -Merrak
    Edited by Merrak on November 20, 2014 9:35PM
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    Here are a few results I did today. RNG will make these number fluctuate a bit, but you would think that you would see more Dodges when both are active.

    111 attempts, 16 dodges = 14.41% w/block & Hist Bark only

    197 attempts, 25 dodges = 12.69% w/Shuffle only

    163 attempts, 29 dodges = 17.79% w/Both
    201 attempts, 38 dodges = 18.91% w/block & Hist Bark only

    188 attempts, 29 dodges = 15.43% w/Shuffle only

    199 attempts, 34 dodges = 17.09% w/Both
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    Based on those numbers it doesn't stack but it's supposed to. It sounds like the various bonuses override one another as they are applied and expire.
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    @ZOS_GaryA‌
    Based on the two above tests, Dodge chance clearly does not stack. This needs to be added to known bugs list. In fact, some skills/sets aren't even applying the bonus stated in the tooltip. It's bad enough that an active skill provides such a small chance to dodge, 15%!?. It ought to be a 2%/5% per piece passive for medium armor.
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    @ZOS_GaryA‌
    Just a friendly bump up from the weekend. Still running tests and it doesn't seem the two are working together. Not certain if there is a bug to it or not, so I figured I would give a quick reminder of what's going on and see if you can get someone to take a look at them.

    Thank you again!
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • ZOS_GaryA
    ZOS_GaryA
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    Hey there @Merrak,

    We don't have any additional information at the present moment. We'll be sure to take a look into it though!
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  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    Any news?
    As it stands, ZOS says dodge chance stacks and the data says dodge chance doesn't stack.
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    @ZOS_GaryA‌ Any news? It's been 2 weeks.

    This is pretty important. A fix for this would do wonders for how squishy medium armor mêlée Nightblades can be.
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    @ZOS_GaryA‌ Any news? It's been 2 weeks.

    This is pretty important. A fix for this would do wonders for how squishy medium armor mêlée Nightblades can be.
    @phreatophile‌
    So, Shuffle by itself works as expected. Hist Bark by itself works as expected. It's just the combination of the two that isn't working as expected. As a NB Melee, I'm assuming you are talking DPS, which means you wouldn't be using Hist Bark, thus, unaffected.

    @ZOS_GaryA‌
    However, the bigger question is, since the combo of Hist Bark and Shuffle are not working how the community is expecting, or at least appears to be broken on our end, can we get a little insight into how it is supposed to work for us? If there is confusion about the ability/armor set working together, it would be best to spearhead this as quickly as possible.
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    I might wish to use Spectre's eye.

    As a mostly solo player, I might wish to play around with as much alternative (as in, not armor) mitigation as possible, or play some sort of hybrid.

    Or any of a few dozen alternatives that don't fit in with:
    As a NB Melee, I'm assuming you are talking DPS, which means you wouldn't be using Hist Bark, thus, unaffected.

    Who cares if I'm supposed to be "unaffected", it's an important mechanic, or it ought to be an important mechanic if it worked, that ZOS apparently isn't even aware of its actual functionality or lack thereof.

    I suspect we have the same issue with miss chance from mirage, ember explosion, Akatosh's Blessed Armor (though that one claims 100% miss chance or 5sec) to name a few.
  • Dubah
    Dubah
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    You guys gotta remember, with both being used its a 33% CHANCE to dodge. doesn't mean you WILL dodge 33% of the time, however that being said looking at some of the numbers with the higher chance to dodge it should have been much higher but sadly thats the luck of the draw. Now with those numbers did you do the test only 1 time and give the results or did you do more than one set of 1000 swings? Curiosity is peaking right now as the numbers should change but the word chance is what will bring this all into the light. Sadly the game of chance can be a female dog if you know what i mean
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    Dubah wrote: »
    You guys gotta remember, with both being used its a 33% CHANCE to dodge. doesn't mean you WILL dodge 33% of the time, however that being said looking at some of the numbers with the higher chance to dodge it should have been much higher but sadly thats the luck of the draw. Now with those numbers did you do the test only 1 time and give the results or did you do more than one set of 1000 swings? Curiosity is peaking right now as the numbers should change but the word chance is what will bring this all into the light. Sadly the game of chance can be a female dog if you know what i mean

    I understand the RNG aspect of how chance works, which was obviously my first reaction to this. However, we have had several attempt 1k+ swings with similar results, nothing breaking over 20% of attacks being dodged. With the general RNG, there is no noticible difference between Hist Bark solo, Shuffle solo, and Hist Bark + Shuffle. Thus the purpose this is still being pursued.
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    Who cares if I'm supposed to be "unaffected", it's an important mechanic, or it ought to be an important mechanic if it worked, that ZOS apparently isn't even aware of its actual functionality or lack thereof.

    The meaning of what I said still stands, you are a DPS, you aren't wearing Hist Bark, so you are unaffected by the bug and the question presented about the stacking mechanics of Dodge Chance. There is no need to be hostile about it.
    Merrak |Guild Leader
    Forgebreaker | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
    http://forgebreaker.net
  • Suntzu1414
    This has been a "know problem" for months.
    (The combination of Hist + Evas/Elude not stacking..)

    If you google, you can see similar testings..

    Unfortunately, this is the --first time --- i have see a response from ESO.
    I don't believe they understand its bugged.

    Hist + Elude does not stack
    And it should...


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  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    Merrak wrote: »
    Who cares if I'm supposed to be "unaffected", it's an important mechanic, or it ought to be an important mechanic if it worked, that ZOS apparently isn't even aware of its actual functionality or lack thereof.

    The meaning of what I said still stands, you are a DPS, you aren't wearing Hist Bark, so you are unaffected by the bug and the question presented about the stacking mechanics of Dodge Chance. There is no need to be hostile about it.

    Fair enough. Mea Culpa for the attitude. To me it felt as if I was being told my question/concern doesn't matter because someone else thinks I have a specific role so butt out. I over-reacted.

    Again, as a typically solo player, I don't generally get to see myself as strictly DPS. I have to see to my own heals and I can't rely on someone else to take the brunt of the damage. So, if these actually stacked, with Hist Bark I could maintain higher stamina reserves since some of the attacks I'm blocking would be dodged, or with Spectre's Eye, I could drop funnel health every 6 seconds and get a boost to health regen and more dodge chance than elude gives by itself. Both are desirable to me, at least to try out.

    I think it would be an interesting build stacking dodge chance, you have to give up some offensive capability, but it's pretty easy to cap weapon damage. Add a high miss chance with Mirage and/or (if these stacked) Ember explosion and I'd start being pretty hard to damage and terribly annoying to an attacker.
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    Suntzu1414 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, this is the --first time --- i have see a response from ESO.
    I don't believe they understand its bugged.

    At this point, I don't think they care that it's bugged.

    That was quite a bit less than an acknowledgement that it's bugged.

    All we actually have from ZOS is a statement from @ZOS_GaryA‌ that dodge chance stacks in some arcane, imeasurable, and totally non obvious way that they are unwilling to explain.
    Edited by phreatophile on December 14, 2014 3:05AM
  • duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO
    Not to be too negative about (although quite mad about the whole thing), the problem here is probably more complicated, when taking into account also the additional bonus from elude for medium armor for a total of (18%+15%+7%) 40% dodge, if it all stacked.

    Sometimes one effect works, sometimes the other, sometimes only the additional buff from the medium armor is there (last effect takes all?).
    Never seen them all work and this one tried it out for a quite some time in PvP and PvE.

    The mechanics behind it seem to be royally screwed up.

    So in this one opinion the statement form ZOS simply means that they are clueless how to fix it without re-writing a major part of the code.

    Now, given how fragile that code is already, re-writing the damned thing is probably a much better idea than trying to fix it, but with the champion system, their resources are bound up working on other "more valuable" things.

    So let's see if re-writing a few things (and by doing so fixing this and many other issues) was also on the agenda for that...
  • danno8
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    They probable have them working multiplicative instead of additive, which could account for some of the weirdness.

    It is clear in any case they need to go back and tweak the code.
  • danno8
    danno8
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    Not to be too negative about (although quite mad about the whole thing), the problem here is probably more complicated, when taking into account also the additional bonus from elude for medium armor for a total of (18%+15%+7%) 40% dodge, if it all stacked.

    Sometimes one effect works, sometimes the other, sometimes only the additional buff from the medium armor is there (last effect takes all?).
    Never seen them all work and this one tried it out for a quite some time in PvP and PvE.

    Now, given how fragile that code is already, re-writing the damned thing is probably a much better idea than trying to fix it, but with the champion system, their resources are bound up working on other "more valuable" things.

    So let's see if re-writing a few things (and by doing so fixing this and many other issues) was also on the agenda for that...

    It shouldn't be that hard really. Each increase in "evade" that a skill gives is a numerical figure (1500=15%) and they all just add together. So elude gives 1500 evade, blur gives 1500 evade = 3000 evade rating=30%, hist bark added to it is 1800 more (while blocking) for a total of 4800=48%.

    I know it's easier said than done but as far as code goes it is very basic.
  • duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO
    if and only if they have it set up in a way where certain chances are added first in an intermediate layer and then applied on the skills.
    From how often they manage to break something(s) else, usually unrelated, when fixing one thing... this one can only assume that they probably apply effects all over the place and then it gets messy in a hurry and yes this is a really bad way to code (fast at the start but almost impossible to maintain or upgrade)
  • Artis
    Artis
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    Just wanted to say that if dodge chances stacked, they wouldn't be additive.
    Don't expect
    Merrak wrote: »
    For instance:
    Hist Bark (5 Piece Set) gives 18% Dodge chance while blocking.
    Elude (Medium Armor Ability) gives 15% Dodge chance while active.

    Do these abilities actually stack, or does one override the other? If they stacked, it should come out to a 33% Dodge Chance combined, but we just don't have the numbers to support either claim.
    18%+15%=33% - I don't think that's how you calculate this.

    I would apply the probability theory here. Because of the Hist Bark, there's a chance to be hit = (1-0.18). Here I omit percents and use 1 as 100% and 0.18 as 18% etc. If you are "hit" - apply the chance to be hit affected by Elude. If you are not hit - you already dodged.
    So now the total chance to be hit is (1-0.18)*(1-0.15) calculated as the probability of 2 independent events taking place.

    Finally, the total chance to dodge is found if you subtract the chance to be hit from 1 (or 100%).
    T=1-(1-0.18)*(1-0.15)=0.303 or T=30.3%

    That being said, the numbers that you guys shared seem to be off.
    And Dodge Chances do not work together. According to your results, I would say that so far only the one that has a higher chance works and it overwrites the lower one.


    Edited by Artis on January 5, 2015 8:57AM
  • phreatophile
    phreatophile
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    I'd love to see an explanation of exactly what
    ZOS_GaryA wrote: »
    ... dodge does indeed stack. We're unable to get into the specifics of each ability interaction, but the dodge stat doesn't go to waste.
    really means. It's truly apalling that a statement like this stands. ZOS ought to explain to us how our abilities are supposed to work. Failing to do that is just covering for their unwillingness/inability to make those abilities work as they ought.

    All of the abilities offering passive dodge are of patheticly low value. 15% would be an acceptable passive in the medium armor line, but it's an active skill. The only way we could get enough passive dodge to make a real difference would be to stack at least 2 sources, but we can't do that because they don't actually stack, no matter what arcane and inexplicable funny business they claim is going on behind the curtain in the interaction of these bonuses.

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