Shenanigans called on upper Crag BS survey map nirncrux droprate. Anecdotal evidence inside.

Tyr

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Unknown_poster wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I actually bugged it. I felt slightly better.

Except it's not bugged. The rate is just much lower now. I've gotten 1 from BS survey since patch.

I've done over 20 of these for 2 surveys. No crux, just some crap. At that point I decided it's a bug. I can't afford the gold and time for no result.

No matter what they intended, even a 25% chance can leave some people without anything for a very long time. Well coded, there would be a slightly better chance next time, every time there was no survey.

Nobody cares if "you can't afford the gold and time" because you're impatient.
Personal bad RNG is NOT a bug.

Further, you have no idea how it's coded and no idea if 2 in 20 is near or far from the intended rate.

Even more importantly is the fact that the devs for certain can track EXACTLY how many players as a whole are getting and would know there's a bug well before you ever were able to objectively recognize a problem.

So stop posting stupid big reports and wasting CS time.

Actually you seem to be in the minority here. I did say all evidence was anecdotal. But rage all you like, if it is bugged, it will be adjusted. Reminds me of earlier when people were complaining about Kuta hireling mails not dropping, and a very vocal minority like you were "stfu..there's nothing wrong with mine." Then a couple weeks later you have a nice dev post saying that it is bugged for some and not for others and a fix is inbound.

I still never get Kuta from my hirelings:(

And bugged or not, done 2 Smithing surveys and about 5 other ones since patch, not 1 nirncrux...at that point it really isn't worth it. I could just sell the mats, buy the damn stone and it'd be cheaper in the end, not to mention less bothersome so...why bother? Kind of sad.

Unknown_poster wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I actually bugged it. I felt slightly better.

Except it's not bugged. The rate is just much lower now. I've gotten 1 from BS survey since patch.

I've done over 20 of these for 2 surveys. No crux, just some crap. At that point I decided it's a bug. I can't afford the gold and time for no result.

No matter what they intended, even a 25% chance can leave some people without anything for a very long time. Well coded, there would be a slightly better chance next time, every time there was no survey.

Nobody cares if "you can't afford the gold and time" because you're impatient.
Personal bad RNG is NOT a bug.

Further, you have no idea how it's coded and no idea if 2 in 20 is near or far from the intended rate.

Even more importantly is the fact that the devs for certain can track EXACTLY how many players as a whole are getting and would know there's a bug well before you ever were able to objectively recognize a problem.

So stop posting stupid big reports and wasting CS time.

Actually you seem to be in the minority here. I did say all evidence was anecdotal. But rage all you like, if it is bugged, it will be adjusted. Reminds me of earlier when people were complaining about Kuta hireling mails not dropping, and a very vocal minority like you were "stfu..there's nothing wrong with mine." Then a couple weeks later you have a nice dev post saying that it is bugged for some and not for others and a fix is inbound.

I am in the minority sadly.

If the evidence is anecdotal and you have concrete evidence of the rate not being zero for some non-zero number of individuals, then you cannot apply that evidence as a part of inductive argument for a bug existing.

By making a bug report when there is no logical foundation for one existing, you are utilizing CS and/or dev resources which cannot then be used for other bugs.

You are a bit officious, don't you think?

There are several kinds of bugs. There are code bugs, mistakes really. There is also things that do not work as intended, even if the code is not bugged, a result of complexity usually.

I decided, above, that the crafting writs are not working as intended and bugged that. As I have been submitting bugs since long before the game went live, I tend to trust my own judgement in this. You don't appear to have anything to add to this, outside of your own, rather narrow, interpretation of what a bug might be. Logic is not your friend here.

Yes. There are different kinds of bugs which include things not working as intended due to complexity.
My argument was that you don't have enough evidence of either of those things because you don't know what the intended rate(which I hope they spell out in the info Jessica referred to) is and we know the current rate is not zero.

Your decision is not based on any evidence and what you actually did is decide it's not balanced based on your individually subjective cost/benefit evaluation.

This is NOT what a bug is.

The length of time you've been reporting bugs is non-sequiter to the accuracy and efficacy of the reporting. The fact that you tend to trust your own judgement is tautological.
"You don't appear to have anything to add to this, outside of your own, rather narrow, interpretation of what a bug might be."
That entire statement is contradictory. you say I have nothing to add immediately followed by SOMETHING you suggest I have to add.

This is simply a cheap sophist ploy to disqualify my argument without actually making an argument yourself.
Further, if the definition of a bug is accurate the relative scope(narrow or broad) is non-sequiter.

What I ACTUALLY have added to the discussion is a dissection of the claim that there is a bug with the drop rate.

Claiming that logic is not my friend in a post that literally had no actual arguments in it and is full of formal logical fallacies is actually kind of sad because it is more likely a sign that you're trained to use logical fallacies instead of arguments.

Unknown_poster

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Elder_III

I have had about 20 Surveys since this particular patch (not counting Alchemy or Enchanting), and I have had 2 Nirncrux drop (both from Blacksmith).Considering that a survey seems to drop 1 out of 2.5-3 writs it's about to the point of giving up on them altogether. I don't think 5 per Survey is at all sensible, but an average of 1 per Survey seems like a good option to me.

Natjur

Change of getting a survey when handing in a crafting writ is 25%

Before patch 1.5.4
Upper Craglorn Blacksmith survey =100% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn Workwork survey = 1.25% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn Clothsurvey =0.05% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn normal nodes = 0.25% chance

After patch 1.5.4
Upper Craglorn Blacksmith survey =1.25% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn Workwork survey = 1.25% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn Clothsurvey =1.25% chance of nirncrux per node
Upper Craglorn normal nodes = 0.25% chance
(this info is put together from 4 different dev posts)

So harvesting a upper craglorn survey gives you 5x the chance of getting a nirncrux compared to a normal node but based on the amount of work to get that survey, its faster just to harvest five normal nodes. For a maxed craftier, the current writs are not worth the time. The dev's said they are looking at adding something for max craftiers.

abigfishy

So after doing 5 writs that cost up to 1,000 gold each you will get 1 survey on average that will give you a less than 10% chance of getting a Nirn so you probably need to do 50 writs on average for 1 Nirn. On the other side you get maybe half that $1,000 back on average in gold and the occasional ornate item. Then there is the time to do the writs. Then there is the time to find the surveys locations. $25,000 and hours of work that isn't battling monsters or doing dungoens for 1 Nirn. Why would anyone EVER waste their time doing these?

So this is not a bug but just working as intended but whoever designed this system has no idea that daily rewards should actually be good and worth doing.

GamerzElite

5 Survey map and I got 1 Fortified Nirncrux!
Last week at ESO Live stream some guy from ZOS told "You will get 100% Nirn Stone from every Survey MAP" and That host girl also agree with him "Yes writ Survey Map is fixed in Last patch 1.5.5". Really ! Have you guys tested it before making a comments to fan ?

EQBallzz

GamerzElite wrote: »

5 Survey map and I got 1 Fortified Nirncrux!
Last week at ESO Live stream some guy from ZOS told "You will get 100% Nirn Stone from every Survey MAP" and That host girl also agree with him "Yes writ Survey Map is fixed in Last patch 1.5.5". Really ! Have you guys tested it before making a comments to fan ?

I remember hearing that statement in the stream but it was a completely erroneous statement. I don't think it was intentional deception or anything but boy was it way off the mark.

Slurg

abigfishy wrote: »

So after doing 5 writs that cost up to 1,000 gold each you will get 1 survey on average that will give you a less than 10% chance of getting a Nirn so you probably need to do 50 writs on average for 1 Nirn. On the other side you get maybe half that $1,000 back on average in gold and the occasional ornate item. Then there is the time to do the writs. Then there is the time to find the surveys locations. $25,000 and hours of work that isn't battling monsters or doing dungoens for 1 Nirn. Why would anyone EVER waste their time doing these?

So this is not a bug but just working as intended but whoever designed this system has no idea that daily rewards should actually be good and worth doing.

Somewhere one of the moderators said nirncrux is intended to be very rare and it became much more available than intended with the BS surveys. Prices had been dropping in guild stores on the NA server for weeks and they're creeping back up again since this change was put in. I suppose this is so the surveys will be worth doing when the nirncrux prices go up that high again.

helediron

That's what the moderators said, but it was a false statement. With my own unscientific statistics, farming gives over ten times more cruxes than current writs. Before BS "fix" the drop rate was on par with farming.

AlnilamE

helediron wrote: »

That's what the moderators said, but it was a false statement. With my own unscientific statistics, farming gives over ten times more cruxes than current writs. Before BS "fix" the drop rate was on par with farming.

If that was the case for you, then you were really lucky. I spent two weeks in Craglorn looking for stones (after I found one on my first trip), before I found my second one.

After Update 5 came out, I got a clothing and a woodworking survey and I got a stone out of each of them.

Now I haven't been doing the surveys because I was saving my mats for new armor, but I feel like starting again.

spryler

Isn't "anecdotal evidence" any oxymoron?

Inco

LOL - Glad I stopped wasting my time on the WRIT's after a couple days of them and nothing worth a crap dropping.

Great idea.. crap ROI - sorry ZOS, but you dropped the ball on this. If it was intended to be a gold/mats sink it's providing a terrible ROI for both and not worth the hassle.

helediron

AlnilamE wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

That's what the moderators said, but it was a false statement. With my own unscientific statistics, farming gives over ten times more cruxes than current writs. Before BS "fix" the drop rate was on par with farming.

If that was the case for you, then you were really lucky. I spent two weeks in Craglorn looking for stones (after I found one on my first trip), before I found my second one.
...snip...

No, it was not luck, but farming. I have collected nearly hundred cruxes, so i have something to support my claim. Other dedicated crafters have got similar averages. Hard farming means like collecting over 1000 raw mats per day. With higher numbers the luck evens out. My numbers come from simply dividing total number of cruxes by number of farming days.

Going back to writs, it would take one year to get 50 cruxes from writs with current drop rates. It takes a month of hard farming to get the same 50 cruxes. Surely writs are a lot less work compared to farming. But changing drop rates in writs because of trying to keep cruxes rare is a failed cause.

Zed

abigfishy wrote: »

So after doing 5 writs that cost up to 1,000 gold

Wow. What are you doing that makes doing writs so expensive? The only time I've had to spend money on writs is when I run out of style stones or need to restock on provisioning groceries.

EQBallzz

Zed wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

So after doing 5 writs that cost up to 1,000 gold

Wow. What are you doing that makes doing writs so expensive? The only time I've had to spend money on writs is when I run out of style stones or need to restock on provisioning groceries.

Because they use mats that you can sell to other players for 1000-1500g. It's the opportunity cost not the actual cost but it's still lost regardless.

DeLindsay

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I have run over 20 crafting writs and received 2 surveys. Neither yielded nirncrux.

It's a complete waste of time and it costs me more gold than I can make or hours of harvesting time.

What genius thought this would be fun?

This, only I stopped doing BS/Cloth/WW after a week of receiving ZERO Surveys since it's a complete waste of time/resources if you don't get at least a few surveys. To the OP, be happy you ever received Surveys and got to pop the free Nirncrux pinata for a week, since many of us never got any.

Ashtaris

And I thought the equipment writs were a waste of time and resources before the Nirncrux nerf. Looks like ZOS has just confirmed that thought.

killedbyping

Unknown_poster wrote: »

There is no such thing as Nirncrux drop rate from Surveys. You get normal drop rate like if you would collect normal nodes. This means that if Survey leads you to lower Craglorn dont even bother collecting, there wont be any Nirncrux stones.

Also devs never stated that those Survey will drop anything special beside Rich resource nodes.

I call shenanigans on your interpretation. This patch note clearly shows that survey maps are intended to drop nirncrux at a higher rate than normal node farming.

Fixed an issue that was causing Nirnhoned trait stones to drop more frequently from Ore Survey Reports in Craglorn, and too rarely for Cloth Survey Reports in Craglorn than intended.[/quote]

I have no idia why you think Surveys are intented to drop nirn stones at higher rate. Devs never stated such thing in any patch notes or discussions. It is just people who hear what they want to hear.

Even if Surveys intented to give bigger drop rates of Nirn stones, i wasnt talking about it and this aint any kind of interpretation.
What i was saying is what we actully have - Surveys have regular drop rates if located in Upper Craglorn. 0% drop chance in Lower craglorn (wich is 2/3 of Cloth and 2/3 WW Surveys).

Patch notes you mentioned means the following - Removed unintended 100% Nirn stone drop rate from BS Surveys. Nothing was done about Cloth and WW Surveys. They still have regular chance of dropping Nirn stones if it located in Upper Craglorn and 0% chance if located in Lower Craglorn.

Unknown_poster

killedbyping wrote: »

Unknown_poster wrote: »

There is no such thing as Nirncrux drop rate from Surveys. You get normal drop rate like if you would collect normal nodes. This means that if Survey leads you to lower Craglorn dont even bother collecting, there wont be any Nirncrux stones.

Also devs never stated that those Survey will drop anything special beside Rich resource nodes.

I call shenanigans on your interpretation. This patch note clearly shows that survey maps are intended to drop nirncrux at a higher rate than normal node farming.

Fixed an issue that was causing Nirnhoned trait stones to drop more frequently from Ore Survey Reports in Craglorn, and too rarely for Cloth Survey Reports in Craglorn than intended.

I have no idia why you think Surveys are intented to drop nirn stones at higher rate. Devs never stated such thing in any patch notes or discussions. It is just people who hear what they want to hear.

Even if Surveys intented to give bigger drop rates of Nirn stones, i wasnt talking about it and this aint any kind of interpretation.
What i was saying is what we actully have - Surveys have regular drop rates if located in Upper Craglorn. 0% drop chance in Lower craglorn (wich is 2/3 of Cloth and 2/3 WW Surveys).

Patch notes you mentioned means the following - Removed unintended 100% Nirn stone drop rate from BS Surveys. Nothing was done about Cloth and WW Surveys. They still have regular chance of dropping Nirn stones if it located in Upper Craglorn and 0% chance if located in Lower Craglorn.
[/quote]

I call shenanigans on your interpretation of editing my quotes to match what you want to hear. If you look at the green dev posts they have clearly stated that survey maps from upper Craglorn have a 5x higher chance of dropping crux than regular upper craglorn nodes. There are at least 3 other threads that they have responded to, with people doing all sorts of fun math to determine the exact drop rates. Just because you don't like the info that drops a couple days after you post, don't get all crazy eyes and come in a try to rewrite reality.

PlagueMonk

Just to throw my hat in the ring.......

I have been doing writs religiously since their inception and as of 1.5.4 I have gotten exactly ZERO from survey maps. Z E R O.

It's BS I only have a chance at a survey map and then to not get at LEAST 1?

Zenimax should make all the Clothier and Wood survey also drop nirn despite being in lower crag (or put all the damn things in upper) and then you should be guaranteed ONE, after that it can be a 1% chance, I don't care.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

There are plenty of nirn just sitting in stores so the market is saturated no need to increase drop rates.

Mercurio

strangely enough, I did my 1st non-enchanting/provisioning writs last night (1 of each BS/WW/Clothing, got a survey, got a nirncrux. the RNG sucks here though.

AlnilamE

helediron wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

That's what the moderators said, but it was a false statement. With my own unscientific statistics, farming gives over ten times more cruxes than current writs. Before BS "fix" the drop rate was on par with farming.

If that was the case for you, then you were really lucky. I spent two weeks in Craglorn looking for stones (after I found one on my first trip), before I found my second one.
...snip...

No, it was not luck, but farming. I have collected nearly hundred cruxes, so i have something to support my claim. Other dedicated crafters have got similar averages. Hard farming means like collecting over 1000 raw mats per day. With higher numbers the luck evens out. My numbers come from simply dividing total number of cruxes by number of farming days.

Going back to writs, it would take one year to get 50 cruxes from writs with current drop rates. It takes a month of hard farming to get the same 50 cruxes. Surely writs are a lot less work compared to farming. But changing drop rates in writs because of trying to keep cruxes rare is a failed cause.

I believe that the writ nodes have a higher chance of dropping Nirncrux because they yield more mats per node. I have read somewhere the chance is doubled. It's still not huge, of course.

But if you are harvesting mats looking for nirncrux, then the availability of those mats to the player will make fullfilling the writ pretty easy, and it would be an added chance of finding stones.

I never got to 1000 mats per day, but I certainly had a stack of each (minus shadowhide, I wasn't strong enough to take on the Welwa.) But you are right. Consistency evens the rate over time.

NukeAllTheThings

I have 2 characters that are lvl 41-46 crafting in BS, Cloth and WW and 1 lvl 50 in all 3 so I can get max level writs on all of them. Here is my experience from the last 2 days with crafting writs:

Day 1
2 Robes, 2 Breeches, 1 Epaulet for all 3
3 Sword, 2 Curiass, 1 Greaves for all 3
2 Resto Staves, 4 Shields for all 3

1 Woodworking Survey in Lower Crag, Zero nirncrux

Day 2
2 Robes, 2 Breeches, 1 Epaulet for 1 character
3 Sword, 2 Curiass, 1 Greaves for 1 character
2 Resto Staves, 4 Shields for 1 character

2 Helmet, 2 Cops, 2 Bracers for 2 characters
2 Helm, 5 Daggers, 2 Pauldron for 2 characters
6 Bows, 2 Shields for 2 characters

1 Clothing Survey in Upper Crag, 1 Blacksmithing Survey in Upper Crag, Zero nirncrux

So, I have been able to complete writs the last 2 days that would be comparable to 6 days for 1 character and have received 3 Surveys and zero nirncrux. In completing the writs I have 512 Voidsteel, 284 Voidcloth, 156 Shadowhide and 500 Sanded Nightwood.

I guess I should be happy that I got some IP, a little gold, a few ornate items a repair kit and 1 tempering allow and a few lower level improvement mats for my time?

Seriously, where is the value in doing these things at max level?

Oh and one other thought. Why in the world would these surveys give me mats that are up to 2 grades below the max level mats? Why the heck would I want quicksilver or mahogany etc? If ZOS isn't going to add anything to the payoff at least allow me to get mats that are no lower than my crafting level.