1.5 Dungeon Difficulty ?

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am begging that the easy mode crew stop lobbying to nerf any and everything that is even slightly challenging.

I am begging that the masochist and elitist crew stop lobbying to make any and everything that is even slightly fun a chore.

I see. So mindlessly running through low level mobs on a higher level vet toon without ever losing any health or getting useful loot qualifies as fun?

I enjoy being able to help my guildies which are not among the best people in eso, which this update was catering to, so now I got to tell them that I can't help them out because we're only going to fail now. Some have disabilities that prevents them from being able to do everything that min-maxers takes for granted, and helping them out was quite enjoyable to me as I made someone happy and I could help them get a little bit better at the same time. And the loot is still crap in dungeons, so I don't really see what you think is fun there either.

How would you know the loot is still crap if you can't finish the dungeons. The reality is that useful set items drop in dungeons now.

I sympathize with those that have disabilities, but all game content should not be developed with disabled users as the target audience. Most of the game content is quite easy and anyone should be able to do it. Dungeons should have some minimum of challenge.

But still, a slider or a subcategory in veteran dungeons to make it so that those that wants it can have the same loot in the dungeons as before with the same difficulty as prepatch wouldn't be so hard to implement. That way the ones that enjoys the new difficulty can do that while the ones that can't do it for one reason or another can still finish it. There's no reason why they can't do that and make everyone happy.

Lunerdog

timidobserver wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am begging that the easy mode crew stop lobbying to nerf any and everything that is even slightly challenging.

I am begging that the masochist and elitist crew stop lobbying to make any and everything that is even slightly fun a chore.

I see. So mindlessly running through low level mobs on a higher level vet toon without ever losing any health or getting useful loot qualifies as fun?

I enjoy being able to help my guildies which are not among the best people in eso, which this update was catering to, so now I got to tell them that I can't help them out because we're only going to fail now. Some have disabilities that prevents them from being able to do everything that min-maxers takes for granted, and helping them out was quite enjoyable to me as I made someone happy and I could help them get a little bit better at the same time. And the loot is still crap in dungeons, so I don't really see what you think is fun there either.

How would you know the loot is still crap if you can't finish the dungeons. The reality is that useful set items drop in dungeons now.

I sympathize with those that have disabilities, but all game content should not be developed with disabled users as the target audience. Most of the game content is quite easy and anyone should be able to do it. Dungeons should have some minimum of challenge.

Nobody said all game content should be developed with disabled users as the target audience.

But all game content SHOULD be developed while keeping disabled and less capable players in mind, they pay the same amount of money as you do and have every right to enjoy all the content that they're paying for.

That's why Scaling SHOULD have been OPTIONAL.


While you think most of the game content is quite easy you should try to think how you yourself would feel and how you would manage if you were less fortunate than you appear to be.

eserras7b16_ESO

Look, I don't know anything about you and I definetly don't have anything against you, but dungeons are suposed to be hard and phergaps you powerleveled in Craglorn and didn't get to know your class and/or you didn't really care about reading what the skills do. I find the dungeons easy, once you get tactics of course. Would like them harder.

Dungeons are suposed to be a challenge for a 4man group, not a grind for gear. Most wonderful thing that can happen to a player is wiping again and again vs a foe. Why? Because then you feel amazing when you finaly get it down. Because you've improved after the fight is done.

Where is the fun in rushing through a delve spaming skills? A run with no emotion, without challenge? I certainly can't understand people like you.

You say Dungeon Scaling should be optional? Well I wouldn't see a problem on it, phergaps is hard to do and they'll update it in the near future. But why being so angry about it? Accept de difficulty as a challenge and try to improve yourself, look for help, call your friends. Instead of whining go ask on forums how to beat or wich are the mechanics for a certain boss!

Now, be honest, how many times did you wipe before getting tired of it? I temember 45 on a certain boss in Veteran Spindlecluch, by then I was Learning and VR2. Now I always one shoot it. I'm sure that with some training you also get to do it!

xaraan

Yeah, I do have to say that when we ran with our v14s a scaled up v12 dungeon, only the bosses proved a challenge, which is good. But when I ran a v3 dungeon with a v8 guy with another group, stuff was destroying me easily. I think they need to polish their scaling quite a bit.

eserras7b16_ESO

xaraan wrote: »

Yeah, I do have to say that when we ran with our v14s a scaled up v12 dungeon, only the bosses proved a challenge, which is good. But when I ran a v3 dungeon with a v8 guy with another group, stuff was destroying me easily. I think they need to polish their scaling quite a bit.

It may be because your VR1-10 characters don't have PvE Dungeon habilities and builds.

smacx250

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Most wonderful thing that can happen to a player is wiping again and again vs a foe. Why? Because then you feel amazing when you finaly get it down. Because you've improved after the fight is done.

Where is the fun in rushing through a delve spaming skills? A run with no emotion, without challenge? I certainly can't understand people like you.

I'll repeat here what I said in another related thread in case it may help you better understand some of your fellow ESO players:

Ever enjoy reading a good book? Was it because you overcame an obstacle? There is much of that in TESO - the story, the scenery, the exploration, the interaction with others, etc. Bashing MOBs (or players) is one part of the game - not the entire game. Some players really don't care too much about it. However, it is clear there are also players who enjoy the other end of the spectrum as well - those that always gallop at full speed from one fight to the next, rapid click through all dialogs, min/max every aspect of the build for combat, etc. TESO is trying to fill a hard role in attempting to be enjoyable to a very wide range of players. That is why the perspective on these types of changes aren't as clear cut as it may seem when you look at it only from a given player's perspective.

Stonesthrow

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Look, I don't know anything about you and I definetly don't have anything against you, but dungeons are suposed to be hard and phergaps you powerleveled in Craglorn and didn't get to know your class and/or you didn't really care about reading what the skills do. I find the dungeons easy, once you get tactics of course. Would like them harder.

Have you run with all VR14s in Darkshade Vet today, or yesterday? Or are you speaking in general terms about all of them in some lofty smug way?

The issue some of us are having is not that we don't like a challenge.

For something that will be a "daily", for things that were vet dungeons that could be done on "hard mode" last week if you knew the fights and your class are now much more difficult, especially for people without full trial/arena gear… which is what these dungeons were made for in the first place.

Harder is fine, stupidly hard for no other good reason than a dial turned too far to the right is not.

Think, then speak in a superior tone… comes across better.

You want them harder… right.

Natjur

We did four of the new undaunted dailys.
The 'normal' dungeons where hard (with pug groups, a few wipes but completed)
The Vet dungeons, did those with guild member with full trial gear and they were HARD.

I like hard fun runs, but vet dungeons where never 'tuned' for Full trial gear players before but do appear that way now. I think they need to be tweaked a little.

I though the gear progression was Normal mobs\quests > Dungeons > Vet mobs\quests > Vet Dungeons > Trials\Arena > Hardmode Trials\Arena

At the moment, I find Hardmode Arena EASIER then some Vet Dungeons.

Stonesthrow

@Natjur My point exactly. That is the order of progression.

Not crying for NERFS, just asking for realistic… lol.

My group last night was 4 VR14s, a full-blown pug, no TeamSpeak. We managed to get everything but the hard-mode/extra challenge whatever it's called… with the final boss in Darkshade Vet.

But it was brutal.

So glad I farmed chests for Soul Gems the past 6 months...

Natjur

As a joke we got a V1 member as leader and three V14.
The instance scales to the leader (V1) so it was easy, but as there was 5 levels difference, the V1 got no loot, and the rest of us got V1 loot. But it make it easy if you were just doing it for a fast run for undaunted quest and achievements.

Still, not ideal, but it was a laugh.

Epsilon_Echo

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Look, I don't know anything about you and I definetly don't have anything against you, but dungeons are suposed to be hard and phergaps you powerleveled in Craglorn and didn't get to know your class and/or you didn't really care about reading what the skills do. I find the dungeons easy, once you get tactics of course. Would like them harder.

Dungeons are suposed to be a challenge for a 4man group, not a grind for gear. Most wonderful thing that can happen to a player is wiping again and again vs a foe. Why? Because then you feel amazing when you finaly get it down. Because you've improved after the fight is done.

Where is the fun in rushing through a delve spaming skills? A run with no emotion, without challenge? I certainly can't understand people like you.

You say Dungeon Scaling should be optional? Well I wouldn't see a problem on it, phergaps is hard to do and they'll update it in the near future. But why being so angry about it? Accept de difficulty as a challenge and try to improve yourself, look for help, call your friends. Instead of whining go ask on forums how to beat or wich are the mechanics for a certain boss!

Now, be honest, how many times did you wipe before getting tired of it? I temember 45 on a certain boss in Veteran Spindlecluch, by then I was Learning and VR2. Now I always one shoot it. I'm sure that with some training you also get to do it!

You don't get it. Its not about the challenge. I can Solo 3 of the four upper-craglorn group delves. SOLO. I took a group through as lead, I was VR4, the other 3 vr14. We couldn't beat it. I got angry, switched to my VR14 AoE monster build.... still failed. 4 VR14 Trial vets couldn't talk down a VR4 scaled dungeon.

AssaultLemming

I thought the scaling was a bit too difficult also, not impossible but seems like daily quests shouldn't be out of reach of more casual players. The pug I was in wiped to the boss in banished cells who spawns the portals about 5 times before giving up. We got very close (2%) so it likely only needs a small tweak to make it more suited to an average players ability and gear.

Yeru

We also got stuck on the portal boss in veteran BC, keeper Imril. We wiped ten times before giving up. We had a VR9 as leader, the rest of us was VR14. There must be something wrong with the scaling of that boss, we had no problems at all with the bosses before that one.

BlackEar

I agree with @Natjur, there should be a natural progression from veteran groups -> trial. There is always the option to craft and upgrade in between but should not be mandatory.

Granted, I tried 4 times with pug groups and they were ***-for-brains and therefore we also failed, but I found that the mobs and bosses were scaled too difficult. It ruined the fun.
What is the point of a daily veteran if you can't even complete it after spending 3-4 hours trying (with different groups)?

Magdalina

Yeru wrote: »

We also got stuck on the portal boss in veteran BC, keeper Imril. We wiped ten times before giving up. We had a VR9 as leader, the rest of us was VR14. There must be something wrong with the scaling of that boss, we had no problems at all with the bosses before that one.

10 times? Try 30...we got her eventually though xD But then I came back there again to help a guildie and, surprise, she wasn't much easier once we got strat down-.- Too much health, too much stuff, no room for slightest mistake. One lags jut a bit, goes down, we 90% wipe.

I am glad dungeons are more difficult and actually have meaningful reward now, really. But even I think they overdid this a bit. They have purely ridiculous amounts of health now - all the dmg and mechanics speed buffs would be fine if they had at least SLIGHTLY less health. You just get tired repeatedly pounding on same damn boss for mins and mins, it's extremely hard not to lose concentration and slip eventually. Plus, it seems this...harsh...scaling really hasn't been thought of much - they just buffed everthing they could for everyoe they could. The result that is the netch boss in DC, which was the easiest one ever before, is now a nightmare to kill, makes fingers hurt to pres that many keys that quickly. Meanwhile, the last boss of DC is still okay. Last boss of BC is still a pushover even in hardmode(btw, who nerfed hardmode? 5 daedroth were fun, since when is it only 3?), but Imril and her disco orbs are 9th circle of hell. This needs some tweaking. SOME, I don't want this back to 2 mannable level again, but at least giving some bosses a bit less health would be nice.

Joy_Division

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

You don't get it. Its not about the challenge. I can Solo 3 of the four upper-craglorn group delves. SOLO. I took a group through as lead, I was VR4, the other 3 vr14. We couldn't beat it. I got angry, switched to my VR14 AoE monster build.... still failed. 4 VR14 Trial vets couldn't talk down a VR4 scaled dungeon.

I don't get how 4 trial vets can't beat these scaled dungeons. I'm totally serious.

achenne

dungeons became really impossible to finish... okay, there are "pro-gamers" but ZMX think about ordinal gamers, i'm an adult who plays after work and i want to pay my money for fun not for another "work"
please, make dungeons easier
for all casual gamers who play for fun and want to pay money for good and not too hardcore game....

Natjur

When HM Arena is easier then normal Vet Dungeons, there is a broken. Then again I think they broke HM Arena but its a good time if you want that achievement

Takuto

My group of friends ran through the 'normal' undaunted group dungeon last night with 3 VR14s and a VR6 Templar. The Templar didn't get any experience or drops in the dungeon. The rest of us received absurdly low experience ~44exp per kill. This just doesn't make sense to me, the 'trash' mobs in those dungeons are an order of magnitude more difficult to kill than equivalent rank above ground mobs -- why are they giving such a tiny amount of experience, why don't they drop anything?

We had ~5 full wipes in the dungeon, and perhaps another dozen deaths. We managed to complete the dungeon, but by the end everyone was ready to log in disgust. Our experience was bad enough, I have doubts that we'll ever find the collective will to run another group dungeon, at least as they exist in the game right now.

akriden

achenne wrote: »

dungeons became really impossible to finish... okay, there are "pro-gamers" but ZMX think about ordinal gamers, i'm an adult who plays after work and i want to pay my money for fun not for another "work"
please, make dungeons easier
for all casual gamers who play for fun and want to pay money for good and not too hardcore game....

This!
And this people keep ESO alive and gives you your Money! Not the few Pro-Gamer, which will quite, when the next "big" MMO release. Think well about, what you will do next. The content is too difficult right now!!!!

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

Group dungeon difficulty is increased. Now they are challenge. That is good thing.
U can always scale difficulty by choosing normal mode instead of hard mode and ofc u can set lover level char for lead. So its not like u dont have options regarding how hard u want it to be.
In my opinion increase of group dungeon difficulty was needed ( i wiped at least 2 hours on vet bc and finally dropped it while other pledges were not problem at all).
If u cant reach level of your incompetance in some game u will get bored soon.
Good move ZOS although rewards are really nothing special.

Gyudan

I haven't noticed such a huge difference in difficulty for veteran dungeon.
Sure, they seem slightly harder but mostly because of the scaling to VR12. Banished Cells and Spindleclutch seem to have the largest difference among those I've tested. Why? Because everyone had gotten used to facerolling VR5 bosses with VR14 characters.
If you consider that vet dungeons are too difficult, practice. Even AA was difficult for everyone at first. If you really can't complete it, there are still normal dungeons.

whsprwind

Why not let us choose the difficulty V1-V12?

ZOS has created a wonderful system that can automagically create an instance of any level anyway - so why not?

That way people can easily find their comfort zone and everyone can have their fun.

Some V14 will find it easy some will find them impossible just like how not everyone can be good at math so it makes little sense to force the same difficulty on everyone.

Also i can choose a V1 instance and solo it for daily - no more forced grouping. Keys are lottery anyway

akriden

whsprwind wrote: »

Why not let us choose the difficulty V1-V12?

ZOS has created a wonderful system that can automagically create an instance of any level anyway - so why not?

That way people can easily find their comfort zone and everyone can have their fun.

Some V14 will find it easy some will find them impossible just like how not everyone can be good at math so it makes little sense to force the same difficulty on everyone.

Also i can choose a V1 instance and solo it for daily - no more forced grouping. Keys are lottery anyway

Thats such a brilliant idea!

hellkrasher

Imposible? WOW, WOW, WOW, men... is that hard for you? Even pugs are doing the dungeons... how is imposible for guilds? Wow...

achenne

Group dungeon difficulty is increased. Now they are challenge. That is good thing.

No it is not. If there was no difference between normal and VR it would be okay I would never play VR, but there are different quests and plots.

Pyatra

On a semi related note, has anyone noticed that the Fear Force they replaced some attacks with seemed scaled too high or acts odd for mitigation? Blocking (not with shield), Soft capped armor and SR, and then Lightning Form on top of it and still take 765 damage per hit. I'm fine if it's just flat damage that cannot be blocked/mitigated and needs to be dodged but something just seems off on the damage compared to the other mobs that can be found hanging around them.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Dungeons are harder, I really like that. No more faceroll, everyone has to put some work in now.

And the whole "scaling should be optional" - why? If you want those items etc., work for it. Not everything is for everyone.

itsBishop

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Dungeons are harder, I really like that. No more faceroll, everyone has to put some work in now.

I think we'll see a lot of these knee-jerk cries for nerfs diminish over the next week or so as people figure out that the content is, in fact, clearable.

manny254

I do agree that certain battles need to be tweaked, but I also think the game feels like a mmo now. I enjoy the new challenge of the battle, and I think a lot of the reactions are because of how hard they are relative to there previous difficulty. Not because of how hard they actually are.