Craglorn NEEDS to change. Dramatically.

Johnny_NO_skillz

I seriously hope the devs are getting feedback on this zone.

I remember before Craglorn dropped, there was a pretty big poll on the forums of "Do you think forced is a good idea or not?" or something.

The response was overwhelmingly "It's NOT a good idea."

No surprise there - but the fact they continue to add to this zone (which btw it's a pretty bland generic Skyrim/Reach-esq zone anyway) is surprising. They haven't alleviated any of the anti-solo player mechanics in the zone, and continue to add content a small minority of players will care to experience.

If you're not at Craglorn yet, I'll fill you in...

- Craglorn is a Veteran Rank zone designed for players leveled VR10+

- AFTER VR10, there is no other reasonable way to progress in leveling experience besides doing this zone.

- The zone REQUIRES you do ALL quests (not just dungeons, or public events) with a group of 4 players.

- This makes starting Craglorn a royal pain due to having to find 3 other players who are willing to start at the beginning of their quest line just to help you.

- This greatly curtails the solo/small group (players who play in pairs) experience.

This main issue with Craglorn is its longevity.

I would venture in 6 months, with the introduction on new zones, and player population waxing and waning, it will be an utter chore to find players who want to quest with you in Craglorn.

Compound this issue with the fact that Craglorn now has a repetition of being a "grinding zone," it's baffling to see the devs aren't taking action or even vocally addressing this issue.

khele23eb17_ESO

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

Johnny_NO_skillz

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

ROFLMAO I spat up my coke reading this haha

DovresMalven

Yea I feel largely disconnected with the story of the celestials and with Craglorn. It's near impossible to find questing partners - let alone who quest at the same pace I do.

Aeratus

Actually, only two craglorn quests require multiple people:

1. The Corrupted Stone (first quest in the main questline), which requires 3 people to be on the same stage of the quest

2. The Missing Guardian (the last quest in the lower craglorn main questline), which requires 4 people to be on the same quest

The other quests can be done solo or in duo.

DovresMalven

Aeratus wrote: »

Actually, only two craglorn quests require multiple people:

1. The Corrupted Stone (first quest in the main questline), which requires 3 people to be on the same stage of the quest

2. The Missing Guardian (the last quest in the lower craglorn main questline), which requires 4 people to be on the same quest

The other quests can be done solo or in duo.

regardless of whether or not they CAN be done they are designed for four, and we aren't all as stronk as you

clayandaudrey_ESO

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

Quite possibly the best remark made about Craglorn to date.

Valymer

Pretty sure people will still farm nodes there for nirncrux unless they add some other way to get it.

Lord_Draevan

Aeratus wrote: »

Actually, only two craglorn quests require multiple people:

1. The Corrupted Stone (first quest in the main questline), which requires 3 people to be on the same stage of the quest

2. The Missing Guardian (the last quest in the lower craglorn main questline), which requires 4 people to be on the same quest

The other quests can be done solo or in duo.

That's only if you have a specific build. The game says "play your way", but Craglorn does not allow you to do this. Most people are forced to group for these quests. I've tried to solo quests with my main DPS melee DK and never suceeded.

I hope this gets changed so quests are soloable for the average player, or at the very least bring it down to 2.

nerevarine1138

I'm not sure why people find it so hard to get a group for questing. I quest in Craglorn regularly, and I'm always able to fill up a group within a few minutes.

Now, you may find it hard to get people to do the last quest in the chain for Lower Craglorn. But all the main quests in Upper Craglorn aren't phased, and my understanding is that the quests leading up to The Missing Guardian in Lower Craglorn have been fixed so they aren't phased either.

Gyudan

Nobody's forcing you to play in Craglorn. Other than skyshards than can be grabbed by a solo player, there is nothing in that zone that requires you to play the content. If you don't like it, go to Cyrodiil or play the other veteran zones. You can even do trials without ever setting foot in Belkarth.

Nox_Aeterna

Heh , if zen isnt making mistakes and implementing horrible concepts at first , then something wrong.

In a few months , like usually , they will spend the resouces and time to fix their own dumb mistakes.

This is just a cicle with zen.

leeux

Gyudan wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to play in Craglorn. Other than skyshards than can be grabbed by a solo player, there is nothing in that zone that requires you to play the content. If you don't like it, go to Cyrodiil or play the other veteran zones. You can even do trials without ever setting foot in Belkarth.

^^^ But we (solo players) would like to experience the story, at least one time.

Saying "go to Cyrodiil" doesn't seem fair to many people (like me) that like the lore of the game, and for which the "celestials" (magne-ge) were a mysterious part of the lore for years.

Maybe the story is horrible, but I'd like to experience that by myself one time at least.

EDIT: Added quote of the post I was referring to

Akula

Johnny_NO_skillz wrote: »

If you're not at Craglorn yet, I'll fill you in...

- Craglorn is a Veteran Rank zone designed for players leveled VR10+

- AFTER VR10, there is no other reasonable way to progress in leveling experience besides doing this zone.

I have two VR 14s and have never set foot in CL (OK I have set foot in it but never used it as a questing/lvling zone).

Thats not so say the mechanics are good, its just this statement is just not factual.

LonePirate

Valymer wrote: »

Pretty sure people will still farm nodes there for nirncrux unless they add some other way to get it.

Fortunately in 1.5, the nirncrux stones will be much easier to acquire thanks to the writ quests.

Aeratus wrote: »

Actually, only two craglorn quests require multiple people:

1. The Corrupted Stone (first quest in the main questline), which requires 3 people to be on the same stage of the quest

2. The Missing Guardian (the last quest in the lower craglorn main questline), which requires 4 people to be on the same quest

The other quests can be done solo or in duo.

The Shattered and the Lost quest has a step where you need to kill two storm atronachs and an air atronach in order to obtain a seeker's gem. Not very many people are going to be able to solo that trio of mobs. Heck, a lot of duo players are going to have a tough time.

Xsorus

If you do everything up until craglorn you should have more then enough zones and content left to do vr14.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

at first I did agree that craglorn was like hitting a wall considering all the content upto that point is solo'able. but after some time standing around watchin chat for things to do, I realized that you have to shake out of the "waiting for group" attitude and actively "Look for Group". make one yourself. if you shout out in zone chat for specific quests theres a good chance someone else has it. personally I think that is far more entertaining than grinding.

you say that the mobs are soloable if you gear that way. I consider that a challenge, not a that I'm being forced to 1 play style, gear or loadout. there's even more options with changes and new gear sets. if it's not working, look for a way around it. sure some classes have an easier time with big mobs but it's not impossible. (bosses? I wouldn't try soloing personally :P) as stated also a group of 2 or 3 can do all but 2 quests. didn't craglorn already get a nerf btw?

anyway, I think being more active in finding and making groups is the key here. luckily (for the most part in my experience) the community is pretty decent when it comes to patience and helping others.

on another note though... an expansive area for vets that continues storyline and solo questing would be very welcome at endgame as well as group content.
perhaps if cyrodiil questing scaled to vet level and the rewards were worth the effort. so far I havnt made them a priority on any character.

TRIP233

Craglorn is a grinding zone. Hopefully the next zones that are released, people can actually quest in. Hopefully there is a solo zone coming out like all the other vet zones. That way we can actually do things in end game.

Audigy

The question is, why is it ok to force solo on everyone from level 1-VR10 but not ok to expect a group of 2+ at Craglorn?

Again people only see their own issues but not those of others. Someone interested in group play has one single zone right now, go figure how he must feel about threads like this one here.

spoqster

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

Haha. Nice one. I hope ZOS reads this thread. EVERY single person I have talked to in-game and even out of game thinks forced grouping for quests is a bad idea. I have not heard one single person who has something good to say about it.

I even did a poll on players grouping preferences, and the result is that the vast majority of players prefers to do quests alone, and this is not even asking about forced grouping.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136622/do-you-prefer-questing-alone-or-in-a-group

KenjiJU

Audigy wrote: »

The question is, why is it ok to force solo on everyone from level 1-VR10 but not ok to expect a group of 2+ at Craglorn?

Again people only see their own issues but not those of others. Someone interested in group play has one single zone right now, go figure how he must feel about threads like this one here.

There's nothing wrong with that perspective either. Personally, I didn't like the old VR zones at all. Why should we have been forced to group or rather 'tough it out' in a supreme grind, when we can experience the same content at the same pace on an alt? We can argue for or against the change that happened, but ideally they would have a different solution that would have been more gradual than hitting a level cap. It's what they should've had. It didn't help that a bulk of the world bosses could be soloed either.

Sidenote, Craglorn itself is not all that bad. The worst part is the issue with the main quest for Lower Crag, which seems to taint the rest of the zone in distaste. Things like Mass 'Whatever?' (can't remember the quest name) are definitely made for groups, but can be done with a pretty ragtag one and is fairly fast. All existing zones in the game should have quests like this. It should also denote that it's a group quest as well, instead of getting 3 people together and finding out after doing a step or two that you're hardlocked into needing a fourth. They should allow these quests to be done with a good group of 3 if balanced around 4 people.

Gyudan

spoqster wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

Haha. Nice one. I hope ZOS reads this thread. EVERY single person I have talked to in-game and even out of game thinks forced grouping is a bad idea. I have not heard one single person who has something good to say about it.

I believe forced grouping is not a bad thing. Group/Vet Dungeons are force-grouping. The Arena is force-grouping. Trials are force-grouping.
The only issue with Lower Craglorn (which is not in Upper) is that each player can only do the quest once and is unable to help other players complete it later. Open the locked doors to players without the quest active and grouping will become much easier.

TRIP233

Audigy wrote: »

The question is, why is it ok to force solo on everyone from level 1-VR10 but not ok to expect a group of 2+ at Craglorn?

Again people only see their own issues but not those of others. Someone interested in group play has one single zone right now, go figure how he must feel about threads like this one here.

We aren't against group content. We are against a zone that is for groups but impossible to even get a group. Grinding is what Craglorn is for. The zone isn't for questing.

Audigy

TRIP233 wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

The question is, why is it ok to force solo on everyone from level 1-VR10 but not ok to expect a group of 2+ at Craglorn?

Again people only see their own issues but not those of others. Someone interested in group play has one single zone right now, go figure how he must feel about threads like this one here.

We aren't against group content. We are against a zone that is for groups but impossible to even get a group. Grinding is what Craglorn is for. The zone isn't for questing.

I am not against solo content either but I see the current state of ESO and it offers zero group content outside of Craglorn and I feel this is a very poor design choice.

For people like me who don't raid or do dungeons the game is a Single Player and this isn't what I did expect from an MMO

To me the choice should be there, if someone wants to group up he should be able to just like someone should be able to solo. Sadly those choices do not exist, you can do Craglorn with a friend but not solo (not all at least) and I cant group with anyone until Craglorn except for the occasional dungeon run.

This whole thing is the biggest critique I have, developing a group and solo zone isn't the answer either. It will lead to the same situation that we have now, a war in the community, a war that none of the two sides can ever win.

RAZORNZL

Craglorn needs to be a real end game zone.they need to make it so you can only go there after you finish cadwells gold quest line.this will help make all other zones a little more active and it will also give the people that earn't the right to be there a better experience without having every vet 1 and his mudcrab farming the content..what if i would like to try duo a boss with a friend? well good luck because it is getting farmed by 10+ people.

come on zos this makes sense!

helediron

Craglorn is advertised as a group zone, so it should not be a surprise it is full of group quests. It is good to have a real group zone.

Grouping has been the problem and quest bugs. Shada's Tears was literally that, when groupies suddenly lost the phase and we all had to restart. Hours of zone spamming for Missing Guardian to find that one last player to click one silly button. The story was force-fed, and that made me to lose it.

One day, i hope, i can redo the quest series. I put a nice LFM "Redoing Craglorn main quest, slowrun, reading dialogues" in a tool that actually works. I pick two players i know are decent questers and one RP newbie. They all enter a quest channel in my guild's TS by clicking a button in the tool. We all go to Warrior's Call, which is closest. Half way through one's dad phones for help and he needs to quit. I reopen the LFM and get a replacement, who phases in. We are slightly shocked we can actually see her, and she says yes, she got the quest when joining, even she did it last week, but saw that we needed a replacement. Happily we continue. The RP dies once when we forgot to explain a step ahead. We finish the quest and continue to Corrupted Stone. Some raging vandal broke all the switches and the maelstrom to missing guardian is now permanent. We wonder awhile what could have triggered such uncontrolled rage, but silently thank the vandal and jump into the water. One day...

TRIP233

RAZORNZL wrote: »

Craglorn needs to be a real end game zone.they need to make it so you can only go there after you finish cadwells gold quest line.this will help make all other zones a little more active and it will also give the people that earn't the right to be there a better experience without having every vet 1 and his mudcrab farming the content..what if i would like to try duo a boss with a friend? well good luck because it is getting farmed by 10+ people.

come on zos this makes sense!

Even if that happens you'll still have the same issues of people not being able to group with. Those other vet zones are solo zones. Quest there when you want. If you need help with overlord bosses, dolmens, and the public dungeon, then you can ask your guild chat, or maybe even zone chat.

JessieColt

What is it that the guy in Belkarth says "you wanna cry me a river, go ahead, then you can swim out of Craglorn."

Craglorn is 1 zone that has content that is designed more for grouped play. 1 freaking zone.

As a vet player, there are more than a dozen other zones where you can play and earn vet xp.

Long before Craglorn was release there were capped players who got that way in the Vet zones.

By the time you reach the last zone in Cadwell's Gold you should be at or near VR10. This means you have 2 levels left before cap.

You can get those other 2 levels by going back and working on Achievements on dolmen's or helping others with the zone/world bosses.

Craglorn is not your only option for leveling Vet ranks. Far from it.

spoqster

JessieColt wrote: »

What is it that the guy in Belkarth says "you wanna cry me a river, go ahead, then you can swim out of Craglorn."

Craglorn is 1 zone that has content that is designed more for grouped play. 1 freaking zone.

As a vet player, there are more than a dozen other zones where you can play and earn vet xp.

Long before Craglorn was release there were capped players who got that way in the Vet zones.

By the time you reach the last zone in Cadwell's Gold you should be at or near VR10. This means you have 2 levels left before cap.

You can get those other 2 levels by going back and working on Achievements on dolmen's or helping others with the zone/world bosses.

Craglorn is not your only option for leveling Vet ranks. Far from it.

That is not the point, for God's sake. They can optimize the zone for groups all they want, they can make it twice as hard for all I care. They just shouldn't REQUIRE you to be a number of N players to complete specific quests. Just give players hard content and let them figure out how many friends they need to beat it.

c0rp

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.

AHAHAHAH...touche!

Craglorn is absolute fail. I would be very surprised to see them continuing to release these forced 4 man group zones. Its just content wasted that 95% of the population will never see or do.

LonePirate

Audigy wrote: »

The question is, why is it ok to force solo on everyone from level 1-VR10 but not ok to expect a group of 2+ at Craglorn?

I think you may be missing the point. It is not OK to force either one. There should be no forced solo quests in the game and there should be no forced group quests in the game apart from the trials. ZOS needs to learn how to scale things to the number of people in one's party and not to a predetermined user level or fixed number of players.