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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
Counter to Zerg pulsar train ?
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
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It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and the totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
Oh, come on!
Frag Shield spam was equally if not more dumb than Impulse spam. It reinforced stacking as a mentality even more. 1 player with frag shield could do nothing. 6 DKs stacking and spamming frag shields could do 7k DPS each and wipe whole groups, just by pressing one button over and over.
You had group vs group clashes, and it would all be about who has more DKs to spam frag shields.
As a DK myself, I'm glad it was fixed. And considering by the reaction to the change in these forums (0 complaint threads about the change), most other DKs agree it was silly.EU | PC | AD4 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭No AoE cap is the best counter. Then skill will matter and not numbers you have.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and the totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
Oh, come on!
Frag Shield spam was equally if not more dumb than Impulse spam. It reinforced stacking as a mentality even more. 1 player with frag shield could do nothing. 6 DKs stacking and spamming frag shields could do 7k DPS each and wipe whole groups, just by pressing one button over and over.
You had group vs group clashes, and it would all be about who has more DKs to spam frag shields.
As a DK myself, I'm glad it was fixed. And considering by the reaction to the change in these forums (0 complaint threads about the change), most other DKs agree it was silly.
Before you over react, I reported Frag shield for rebalancing about 5 months ago. I didn't say it should have remained the way it was I said "All they needed to do was tone it down a notch". They didn't need to remove it as a counter, they just need to rebalance it as a counter.Edited by Armitas on October 31, 2014 12:57PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and the totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
Oh, come on!
Frag Shield spam was equally if not more dumb than Impulse spam. It reinforced stacking as a mentality even more. 1 player with frag shield could do nothing. 6 DKs stacking and spamming frag shields could do 7k DPS each and wipe whole groups, just by pressing one button over and over.
You had group vs group clashes, and it would all be about who has more DKs to spam frag shields.
As a DK myself, I'm glad it was fixed. And considering by the reaction to the change in these forums (0 complaint threads about the change), most other DKs agree it was silly.
Before you over react, I reported Frag shield for rebalancing about 5 months ago. I didn't say it should have remained the way It was I said "All they needed to do was tone it down a notch".
That's too late, I already over reacted
But seriously, you could not just "tone it down a notch". Not when it does 7k (uncrit) AoE DPS, keeps you under constant shield, gives you almost infinite stamina to block-cast it (Helping Hands passive) and generates ultimate like crazy (Mountain's Blessing passive and more targets being hit).
There's no justification for the insane bonuses of it. It needed toning MANY notches down and I'm ok with what happened.
Also, your argument that it was a counter to stacked groups (zergballs to some) does not hold. It's not a matter of opinion, it's an evidenced fact. We did have it for 6 months and all that happened was zergs used it back. Did it stop them from stacking and spamming 1 skill over and over? No, quite the opposite.EU | PC | AD0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and the totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
Oh, come on!
Frag Shield spam was equally if not more dumb than Impulse spam. It reinforced stacking as a mentality even more. 1 player with frag shield could do nothing. 6 DKs stacking and spamming frag shields could do 7k DPS each and wipe whole groups, just by pressing one button over and over.
You had group vs group clashes, and it would all be about who has more DKs to spam frag shields.
As a DK myself, I'm glad it was fixed. And considering by the reaction to the change in these forums (0 complaint threads about the change), most other DKs agree it was silly.
Before you over react, I reported Frag shield for rebalancing about 5 months ago. I didn't say it should have remained the way It was I said "All they needed to do was tone it down a notch".
That's too late, I already over reacted
But seriously, you could not just "tone it down a notch". Not when it does 7k (uncrit) AoE DPS, keeps you under constant shield, gives you almost infinite stamina to block-cast it (Helping Hands passive) and generates ultimate like crazy (Mountain's Blessing passive and more targets being hit).
There's no justification for the insane bonuses of it. It needed toning MANY notches down and I'm ok with what happened.
Also, your argument that it was a counter to stacked groups (zergballs to some) does not hold. It's not a matter of opinion, it's an evidenced fact. We did have it for 6 months and all that happened was zergs used it back. Did it stop them from stacking and spamming 1 skill over and over? No, quite the opposite.
Removing the AOE caps for all skills will easily give us 7k DPS. I can get over 3k DPS with the AOE caps so 7k will be a drop in the bucket. If we want AOE caps removed we have to get use to that kind of dps. The DPS of Frag shield just is because it was able to overcome the AOE cap, and removing the cap is what we are headed toward.
The main problem was the fact that 1 impulse caused that person to be hit 6x at once, along with his entire group. My thought was to make it a single explosion centered on the DK with variable damage based on number of shields lost. Or they could lower the AOE cap for the explosion itself to 2-3.
I think they were too hasty with it and removed a solid counter to something that has been complained about almost since release. When I reported the skill for rebalancing, they agreed with me that it was a "great counter to impulse" but I'm not sure they understood the importance of that.
____________________
SIDE NOTE.
Is harness magicka still working for impulse? I felt like it didn't last night. Ate 4 of them while HM was cast and should have actually been up.
Edited by Armitas on October 31, 2014 1:33PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Even pugs have learned how to wipe trains in the open. It's penalizes mele builds for sure, but it's still loads of working tactics.
The main problem with impulse monkey blobs, is really how it effects performance and how that makes it impossible to defend or attack objectives.
When you storm a castle with a 50+ train right now, you will with 100% certainty kill server performance and make PvP unplayable for everyone. Enemies cant use or set up siege, oil, drop ultimates or use most skills. Cant even use heavy attacks or weapon swap, when blobs are running around spamming furiously.
Only thing that works is synergies, heals and occasional PBAoE. Skill choices that heavily favours blobs of course. Lag is created by them and lag also supports their playstyle.
If intentional or not, is sort of irrelevant, when the result is the same. Get half the faction bombing 2 flags simultaneously and no one will be able to do *** all but running around stuck in invasion.
3 -
Ghostbane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Separation of concerns.
Charge in mid-way of the train, or a third to the back. Pin / fear / demobilize / whatever. Separate that chunk from the main train and they don't have long on a battlefield ( unless they are good players )
When soloing, instead of trying to get the kills of yourself, focus on alienating them from one another. Healthy contribution to whatever tick in play.{★★★★★ · ★★★★★ · ★★ · ★★★★★}350m+ AP PC - EUAddons
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Removing the AOE caps for all skills will easily give us 7k DPS. I can get over 3k DPS with the AOE caps so 7k will be a drop in the bucket. If we want AOE caps removed we have to get use to that kind of dps. The DPS of Frag shield just is because it was able to overcome the AOE cap, and removing the cap is what we are headed toward.
Well two things with that. First off, AOE caps will be removed but the damage will scale off the more people you hit. So we might see 7k DPS, we might not. We don't know that yet. Also they already mentioned that there will be a cap to ult-generation, so it will be less than frag shield generated.
Secondly, yes you can get 3k DPS. I can pop a spell crit potion, stand on a keep's breach, stack wall of elements as people rush it and get more than that too. But it doesn't offer anywhere near the utility frag shield did with its shield, stamina return and ult-gen.
That said I'm ALL for the removal of AoE capsThe main problem was the fact that 1 impulse caused that person to be hit 6x at once, along with his entire group. My thought was to make it a single explosion centered on the DK with variable damage based on number of shields lost. Or they could lower the AOE cap for the explosion itself to 2-3.
Some good ideas, perhaps they could have considered those. I'm guessing they wanted a quick, hasty fixI think they were too hasty with it and removed a solid counter to something that has been complained about almost since release. When I reported the skill for rebalancing, they agreed with me that it was a "great counter to impulse" but I'm not sure they understood the importance of that.
What they saw it as and what it played out to be is another thing. Many things played out differently than the devs anticipated. A strong PBAoE can always be used by zergs and thus will play more into their hands. Real viable counter is solid targeted AoE (like siege, volcanic runes etc etc). Which is why the are considering this Magicka Detonation skill.SIDE NOTE.
Is harness magicka still working for impulse? I felt like it didn't last night. Ate 4 of them while HM was cast and should have actually been up.
I swallowed bats+fire rings just fine by spamming HM last night. But I'm in the EU so. Maybe lag or sth?EU | PC | AD0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Ok that is good to hear. Yeah probably lag. I was worried that since spell damage isn't used for impulse that it might not be considered spell damage. It still uses magicka so I guess that is what really counts.Edited by Armitas on October 31, 2014 1:58PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Ok that is good to hear. Yeah probably lag. I was worried that since spell damage isn't used for impulse that it might not be considered spell damage. It still uses magicka so I guess that is what really counts.
No no. What it crits with is what counts. There's plenty of magicka costing spells that crit with weapon crit and bypass HM completely. Since you're a fellow DK, Lava Whip is a prime example.
Always check what the skill crits with, that's a much better indication of whether the game sees it as a spell or not.EU | PC | AD1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Ok that is good to hear. Yeah probably lag. I was worried that since spell damage isn't used for impulse that it might not be considered spell damage. It still uses magicka so I guess that is what really counts.
No no. What it crits with is what counts. There's plenty of magicka costing spells that crit with weapon crit and bypass HM completely. Since you're a fellow DK, Lava Whip is a prime example.
Always check what the skill crits with, that's a much better indication of whether the game sees it as a spell or not.
Ah yeah, I knew about lava whip and stuff like puncturing strikes, just had a momentary lapse on how nebulous the game is on things.Edited by Armitas on October 31, 2014 2:16PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭One technique we used that was often effective, spread out in a circle around them and snare and pick off the tail where the healers tend to be.
Since they can't get off the crown it is easy to have a line surrounding them move away as the rest of the circle around them singles down the trailing members. The train's leader usually doesn't notice them dying as they are outside of his camera FOV.
I hear they are adding some ability to help break up the balls.
I always though they could just make the useless morph of negate magic something called "Invert Magic" that made all aoe effects harmful to team members who were in the radius, with a fairly large radius.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American1 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
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They nerfed it 2 patches back, the damage generated from the shield being broken only causes damage from the originator, not other friendly targets benefiting from the shield.
“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
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It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and they totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
What?? So Fragmented Shield reflects damage??? Are we even talking about the same skill? All i read is that when effect is done, it explodes a bit.
So technically (before the nerf i suppose?), i hit the skill, i got some shield and EVERYONE around me got it, and... we all "explode"?
Hmmm I see.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
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March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spreading out making the group travel from player to player to kill you then use siege and pick players off from the back etc or just get negates and go kill them np@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
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What?? So Fragmented Shield reflects damage??? Are we even talking about the same skill? All i read is that when effect is done, it explodes a bit.
So technically (before the nerf i suppose?), i hit the skill, i got some shield and EVERYONE around me got it, and... we all "explode"?
Hmmm I see.
Yeah in a way it reflected damage. Impulse goes in, damage gets absorbed, frags go out from 6 people who each can hit 6 people, rinse repeat.Edited by Armitas on October 31, 2014 3:29PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
seancaputo_ESO✭✭✭When have been doing it easy ---
Our Dragon Knights Leap in Crash the Light Armor Down, Drop Talons, Reflecting Scales and everyone else Destroys them. We have done this Over and Over.
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Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »]1) Caltrops
2) A well placed meatbag catapult
3) Negates. Lots and lots and lots of Negates.
1 . Caltrops just slows it down nothing more...
2. Catapults often fail to work near these groups also these groups run purge no biggie..
3. Negate is effective but all the have to do is walk out of it..
There is no effective measure EXCEPT another pulsar group...
First off what is you definition of a pulsar group? Because by the sounds of it means any big group using AoEs. You can take down a group of 30 without a single member of your team using Impulse or morphs of it.
However, it's very hard and laborious to take down a group of 20+ players with single target abilities. You'll probably have to use some AoEs yourself, to make it quick and efficient. That's the point of AoEs, efficiency versus larger numbers, why wouldn't you use it.
Now that's out of the way, can you not see that your points 1 and 3 are contrary? They can't keep walking out of Negates if they are caltroped because they are slowed. You'll always need a coordinated push and ultie drops at the same time. If Caltrops, Negates and a push all happen within a 2 sec period, that zerg is normally in big trouble.
Of course a lot of depends on the coordination and experience of your team and the other team. If you see them counter-negating and dropping a barrier instantly, you know you've got a tough fight on your hands.
You still need another pulsar group to take them out...Plus a organized ball group also has every counter you mentioned....
Also never stated players should not use it..... However ZEN has stated that game play issues (lag) is being created by these tactics.. So no Im mot a fan of this tactic because it interfears with my gameplay...
I am not a fan of an ability that requires no target selection and hits harder then alote of single target abilities... AOE needs to be to be reduced in pvp. Even though i dislike strong aoe in games .. I do not blame people for doing it...
I think no crits on AOE in pvp is reasonable...also eliminate or reduce ultimate gain on aoe abilities.. The most ultimate should always come from targeted attacks....PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭seancaputo_ESO wrote: »When have been doing it easy ---
Our Dragon Knights Leap in Crash the Light Armor Down, Drop Talons, Reflecting Scales and everyone else Destroys them. We have done this Over and Over.
Yeah but proper pulsar trains will have Immovable running + enough stamina to dodge out of talons.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
Redlags✭✭Its hardly PvP or skills. Every player out there implulsing and bat swarming is directly leading to the desecration of the game. Guess what. They don't care if everone is quitting. They onl care about the numbers they can spout,, But guess what we're bit a one game pony, When they try to brag about how god they were in ESo 2 years from now in a new game. WE will remember their ***.. We will take their bragging asses, bragging basically about destroyinh a games PvP..We will hate them then and there, Theywill never brag about what they did here, It will be a disgrace. We will hate them for killing a game. They will be to ashamed o admit what they did here, because mmorpgs players don't forget. WE don't forgive. We will hate them. They wasted our times. They will never have any brag or flow. Because we will shoot them down. remind them how they ruined a god game.Edited by Redlags on November 1, 2014 2:53AM3
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Columba✭✭✭✭✭
✭We will hunt and skin the impulse monkeys alive. We refuse to group pulse monkeys.Edited by Columba on November 1, 2014 3:56AM1 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭This impulse monkey spamming is turning Cyrodiil into the planet of the apes.
Maybe you should spread out, then making the skill useless when spammed.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.2 -
Carter_DC✭✭✭Not that I don't like reading a good troll about "that spell", "this skill", or "theses guys"... but as the OP, I still wonder what to do.
many thanks to the ones who actually shared their strategic views (and explained 'em).
Outside obvious elements like negate, siege weapons, caltrops etc...
There's still the issue that opposes some of u guys : Packing vs Spreading...
My first guess would be to spread in order to avoid the high aoe dps (don't give free kills). But on the other hand, packing offers the opportunity of group buffs, heals...
(i'm more of a marine split against baneling bust kinda guy^^)High Kinlady Estre was right ! Hail to the Veil !
Fr AD Guild Arkadium.0 -
Columba✭✭✭✭✭
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works on 10-20 of them. when they ball up in numbers of 40-50 all spamming impulse monkey spam, you lag out, cant move and it's nearly impossible to counter them.
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MiyaTheUnbroken✭✭✭✭Not that I don't like reading a good troll about "that spell", "this skill", or "theses guys"... but as the OP, I still wonder what to do.
many thanks to the ones who actually shared their strategic views (and explained 'em).
Outside obvious elements like negate, siege weapons, caltrops etc...
There's still the issue that opposes some of u guys : Packing vs Spreading...
My first guess would be to spread in order to avoid the high aoe dps (don't give free kills). But on the other hand, packing offers the opportunity of group buffs, heals...
(i'm more of a marine split against baneling bust kinda guy^^)
You can try to out zerg them, but in most cases this only leads to massive casualties, especially if your people are not accustomed to zerging. The success of zerging a zerg is largely dependent on who's with you. Do they have the HP to survive? Do they have strong AoEs of their own? Which classes do you have the most of? How many people do you have? Are they on teamspeak, and well organized? Are you attacking or defending? However the success of spreading out is dependent on the individual. Can you maneuever around the zerg? Can you get a kill or two without being noticed by the zerg? Do you have strong ranged attacks? Can you pull one or two away from their group? Worst case scenario, spreading out will allow at least one or two allies to stealth and survive. They can then place a new camp and allow your alliance a second chance.
On a wide scope strategic level the best counter to a zerg would be both. The people that do well with close quarters combat and have strong AoEs would zerg the zerg, while the people with lower HP and hard hitting ranged attacks would spread out and pick them off from the sides.1 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
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How about stop lagging the server so people can actually play.... We do spread atm by playing no where near you guys...PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
It barely did damage individually, but when 1 impulse hit 6 people, those 6 people hit 6 fragments each. So the person impulse would get hit by 6 frag shield per cast, while having their damage absorbed. All they needed to do was tone it down a notch not break the whole thing.
People have been complaining about impulse spam since release and the totally annihilate the one thing that actually made it dumb to impulse spam.
Oh, come on!
Frag Shield spam was equally if not more dumb than Impulse spam. It reinforced stacking as a mentality even more. 1 player with frag shield could do nothing. 6 DKs stacking and spamming frag shields could do 7k DPS each and wipe whole groups, just by pressing one button over and over.
You had group vs group clashes, and it would all be about who has more DKs to spam frag shields.
As a DK myself, I'm glad it was fixed. And considering by the reaction to the change in these forums (0 complaint threads about the change), most other DKs agree it was silly.
Yes and it was nerfed ...just like the majority of pvpers want something done about ball zerging ... and creating unplayable lag for the rest of the community....PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
ThyIronFist✭✭✭✭✭I countered it by unsubbing.The Elder Zergs Online
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