Some thoughts about our mindsets

Rune_Relic

Armitas wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Steroids are an advantage in sports but I don't expect that someone will use them. I expect them to behave in a sportsman like manner. If they are just a bunch of crooks and thieves what would be the value of the trophy or the game itself?

Then why is there testing for steroids? Why are so many players in sports trying to use them or something like them to gain as advantage? You can't have that expectation that no one is going to use PEDs as the reality says otherwise. As I said, it's going to happen. You fixed the issue yourself by killing them over and over again until you took their fun away and they quit.

I said it ain't cricket to do this, but it is going to happen in a competitive environment. The fact that someone else exploits a broken game mechanic does not make them crooks and thieves. If they stole the items that gave them this exploit, or modded the game so that they had something that no one else could get would make them crooks and thieves.

Either you adapt and stay within your principals or you don't. You adapted, you overcame and took their advantage away and you stuck to your principals. You showed you are a better player of the game than they are because you beat them despite the exploit they were using. Hold your head high and wait for ZOS to fix this, which they will in about 65 hours.

There is testing for steroids because people have used steroids, but that does not mean that I should expect that all players are using steroids. There are many reasons a player may use illegal steroids, but none of those reasons are acceptable reasons to use them.

The term Crook in the legal sense comes from it's shape, not straight. Straight meaning, in that context, parallel to right behavior or the law. In that sense crook is applicable to one who exploits.

I think that a principle that is derived internally is meaningless and certainly arbitrary. Either it exists externally and objective or it is mere subjective illusion. I think most people would agree that there is a real right and wrong. It may not always be clear but as far as the existence of right and wrong I would think most agree on it.

Now because principles and virtues are so compellingly real, prescriptive even, I do have an expectation that people should adhere to them. Do not steal, do not murder etc. In the probabilistic sense I expect people and myself to fail to be virtuous, but I don't expect them in the obligatory sense to fail to be virtuous. We are not obliged to behave poorly, on the contrary we are seemingly obliged to behave rightly by a deep mystery.

To me there is no deep mystery. There is group preservation and self preservation. Most see the need for the group to flourish because when the group flourishes so does the individual (ie a conscience). Others do not see beyond their own needs (ego). Few put group preservation before personal preservation. Some see the group as a threat to their personal preservation.

Group preservation requires equality. Hence noble concepts like a round table.

What drives both mentalities at the end of the day is freedom to choose their own destiny and shape their life as they see fit. When everyones desires align there is harmony and all is well. When peoples desire conflict....well....civilisation (the group) implodes.

That conflict develops when the individual gets greedy and feels more entitled than everyone else. Be it wealth, power or any other synonym that leads to survivability and freedom of will.

Some things were specifically designed to create this divide between people to make them easier to control. Drugs...money....social position... physical force...
..you are all addicts to the drug that is power over others. You just dont know it.

Armitas

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Steroids are an advantage in sports but I don't expect that someone will use them. I expect them to behave in a sportsman like manner. If they are just a bunch of crooks and thieves what would be the value of the trophy or the game itself?

Then why is there testing for steroids? Why are so many players in sports trying to use them or something like them to gain as advantage? You can't have that expectation that no one is going to use PEDs as the reality says otherwise. As I said, it's going to happen. You fixed the issue yourself by killing them over and over again until you took their fun away and they quit.

I said it ain't cricket to do this, but it is going to happen in a competitive environment. The fact that someone else exploits a broken game mechanic does not make them crooks and thieves. If they stole the items that gave them this exploit, or modded the game so that they had something that no one else could get would make them crooks and thieves.

Either you adapt and stay within your principals or you don't. You adapted, you overcame and took their advantage away and you stuck to your principals. You showed you are a better player of the game than they are because you beat them despite the exploit they were using. Hold your head high and wait for ZOS to fix this, which they will in about 65 hours.

There is testing for steroids because people have used steroids, but that does not mean that I should expect that all players are using steroids. There are many reasons a player may use illegal steroids, but none of those reasons are acceptable reasons to use them.

The term Crook in the legal sense comes from it's shape, not straight. Straight meaning, in that context, parallel to right behavior or the law. In that sense crook is applicable to one who exploits.

I think that a principle that is derived internally is meaningless and certainly arbitrary. Either it exists externally and objective or it is mere subjective illusion. I think most people would agree that there is a real right and wrong. It may not always be clear but as far as the existence of right and wrong I would think most agree on it.

Now because principles and virtues are so compellingly real, prescriptive even, I do have an expectation that people should adhere to them. Do not steal, do not murder etc. In the probabilistic sense I expect people and myself to fail to be virtuous, but I don't expect them in the obligatory sense to fail to be virtuous. We are not obliged to behave poorly, on the contrary we are seemingly obliged to behave rightly by a deep mystery.

To me there is no deep mystery. There is group preservation and self preservation. Most see the need for the group to flourish because when the group flourishes so does the individual (ie a conscience). Others do not see beyond their own needs (ego). Few put group preservation before personal preservation. Some see the group as a threat to their personal preservation.

Group preservation requires equality. Hence noble concepts like a round table.

What drives both mentalities at the end of the day is freedom to choose their own destiny and shape their life as they see fit. When everyones desires align there is harmony and all is well. When peoples desire conflict....well....civilisation (the group) implodes.

That conflict develops when the individual gets greedy and feels more entitled than everyone else. Be it wealth, power or any other synonym that leads to survivability and freedom of will.

Some things were specifically designed to create this divide between people to make them easier to control. Drugs...money....social position... physical force...
..you are all addicts to the drug that is power over others. You just dont know it.

If I understand this right, in this system there is no virtue, just a symbiotic relationship derived from self prudence? Is that right?

FluffiestOne

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Andra and I have been using twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) and people start hopping on the band wagon.

Let me fix that for you "champ":

Andra and I have been using exploiting twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) made public and people start hopping on the band wagon.

Calm down on the saltyness or you might get a kidney stone.

Thudunblundur

What is winning and what is losing in the pvp bit of a game? Position on the board, yes, at its most basic. But there is a lot more. If you're in the worst faction and lose by a long way but kept fighting and encouraging to the last, you were a winner in important ways as far as I'm concerned. If you were tempted by something in game you felt to be wrong and didn't do it, then you won in ways no-one but you will ever be aware of. How important is winning on the board when it has no relevance to who I'd want on my team?

And I'd like to confess my own exploiting at this point: I only discovered that DKs Reflect didn't affect Silver Shards in the notes that said this error would be corrected in update 5. In that knowledge I am spamming, absolutely spamming, Silver Shards at the faction that has way the most vampires in our campaign. Especially Dragonknights. And gosh it feels good

Galalin

Im seriously disgusted with some of these posts... i have been (for your convenience) EXPLOITING this set for a long time not even knowing until a week ago it was broken.... i have spent lots of my ap to get the v11 stuff long ago and tons more in ap/gold to but my vr 14 set a few weeks ago. So here is my name and shame the hell away! So im an exploiter? Really for anyone that knows me also knows i am by far not an exploiter.

I didn't run out and buy this set because i found out it was broken i already had it. if any of you would like to spend the1.25 million ap for me to buy another PvP set as an alternative until 1.5 speak up! Because i sure as hell dont have that much ap to waste until then. Im pretty sure if one of your sets gave you more than it should and you spent tons on it and couldn't afford somethong else, every fricking one of you would use it.

Maybe some ppl are running out to get for this reason but it is hardly cheating or exploiting and WILL be fixed. Cheating, exploiting, etc. Its no wonder these words mean nothing anymore... just over used garbage spewed out from a bunch of over reacting babies.

Yes this set needs fixed and it will be fixed. That doesnt mean every person wearing it is a cheating exploiter who jumped on the band wagon.

I really dont know why i wasted my time even reacting to this

Edit spelling

Columba

I stopped using silver shards when it was bugged. the honorable thing to do would be to stop using the 5th piece of the set until it's fixed

Lava_Croft

TL;DR lamer will be lamers

Galalin

Columba wrote: »

I stopped using silver shards when it was bugged. the honorable thing to do would be to stop using the 5th piece of the set until it's fixed

I am curious as i still fully dont understand the bug part. Can you explain to me what exactly it is doing in detail? I know its not stacking with itself. And from my observation its not proccing 100% of the time but certain combo attacks always make it proc. Im guessing due to the 20% proc. I could be wrong.

On the other hand i have been informed it is stacking with other ppls twin sister sets.

Can anyone go into detail? No just point fingers and spew general statements such as its an exploit or is that just the case ppl screaming without fully understanding? Cause thats kinda what im seeing here.

I will most definately take off the 5th if someone can explain in detail how exactly this is exploiting and its more than just it stacking with someone elses set.

Galalin

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TL;DR lamer will be lamers

Im guessing by your comment you should be in bed?

Kids are so opinionated and lazy these days

Tintinabula

I got the set BECAUSE I was being killed with twin sisters a lot. I didn't know it was "bugged'. But it made sense to me that being able to carry around an extra 800 DPS simply for blocking and passing that on to whoever used melee on me made good PvP sense.

I don't know what this "stacking" issue is (I'm guessing that if a player like a nightblade hit me more than once it would apply the DOT multiple times?)

I don't apologize for using the set cause Ive died to it multiple times however Ive stopped using it simply because i think I should be able to get more dps via another set and actually "doing" something besides holding down block.(In reality if your burst dps is what it should be in order to break through a shield you should be able to deal enough damage to the enemy before that 800 kills you with something else besides mellee)

Galalin

Tintinabula wrote: »

I got the set BECAUSE I was being killed with twin sisters a lot. I didn't know it was "bugged'. But it made sense to me that being able to carry around an extra 800 DPS simply for blocking and passing that on to whoever used melee on me made good PvP sense.

I don't know what this "stacking" issue is (I'm guessing that if a player like a nightblade hit me more than once it would apply the DOT multiple times?)

I don't apologize for using the set cause Ive died to it multiple times however Ive stopped using it simply because i think I should be able to get more dps via another set and actually "doing" something besides holding down block.(In reality if your burst dps is what it should be in order to break through a shield you should be able to deal enough damage to the enemy before that 800 kills you with something else besides mellee)

Nope its not stacking with itself if procced from only you... it just re applies.. with that said if 4 ppl are wearing it and you drop caltops on them thne yes all 4 ppl can each have a dot on you...

And thats the exact reason i got the set long ago.. it made sense to me.

Tintinabula

so people say its bugged because if 4 ppl are wearing it and you mellee those four ppl simultaneously you're screwed?..So they want an immunity built into the armor?

I realize the caltrops thing was super lame and dumb but I don't see much else broke with the set IMHO.

Galalin

Here is more food for thought. If you have a damage shield and someone's twin sisters procs on you the damage shield acts like purge and your not affected by the twin sister proc... maybe this should be fixed this too.

Im seeing more and more ppl that do not understand this set and crying exploit, cheat.

I dont fully understand the big deal calling this an exploit and cheating over it stacking with other ppls sets since they are fixing that.

Can someone please point out how else this set is broken in detail... because i see this as being overly exaggerated.

Galalin

Tintinabula wrote: »

so people say its bugged because if 4 ppl are wearing it and you mellee those four ppl simultaneously you're screwed?..So they want an immunity built into the armor?

I realize the caltrops thing was super lame and dumb but I don't see much else broke with the set IMHO.

Exactly why im asking everyone pointing fingers calling ppl exploiters and cheaters to enlighten me... so far i hear crickets... which leads me to believe nobody really understands and someone said its an exploit so i will just kick and scream exploit and cheat as loud as i can to join the croud.

Then again maybe im wrong. But as far as i can see a slightly lower proc and make it not stack with other players should suffice.

Hardly and exploit or cheat

Tintinabula

As it stands Deathswind knocks back and incapacitates whoever charges you or hits you first for 15+ seconds. Is wearing that set considered an exploit as well?

Galalin

With the terms being thrown about like they are.... one must assume

kijima

Your still my favorite DK Galalin

Galalin

kijima wrote: »

Your still my favorite DK Galalin

Thanks kijima... mutual respect

Dk scub out...

Rune_Relic

Tintinabula wrote: »

As it stands Deathswind knocks back and incapacitates whoever charges you or hits you first for 15+ seconds. Is wearing that set considered an exploit as well?

It 4s seconds not 15. The idea being f you are being ganged up on by lots of melee fighters (yes melee) and they are within area....and you drop below 35% health they get a knockback (wind of death).

IMHO its a situational armour that offers nothing against magicka or ranged attacks. So I don't see it as OP. It offers nothing bow morphs dont offer except a 35% trigger and not as powerful.

Kartalin

Galalin wrote: »

I didn't run out and buy this set because i found out it was broken i already had it. if any of you would like to spend the1.25 million ap for me to buy another PvP set as an alternative until 1.5 speak up! Because i sure as hell dont have that much ap to waste until then. Im pretty sure if one of your sets gave you more than it should and you spent tons on it and couldn't afford somethong else, every fricking one of you would use it.

For what it's worth, Galalin was out there reaping a fresh harvest of AP at KC mill tonight, probably still is as I write this. I felt I'd made sufficient contributions to him and bowed out of the fight, though I did get a couple of kills and a fair bit of damage into him myself.

It is a tough situation when you invest so much in something that's about to change drastically and has that negative stigma. Personally I get tired of seeing it on my kill recap, but some of them were legitimate reflects and I don't feel like the ones that weren't would have led to my survival in those fights.

Mainly I should stop throwing myself against brick walls (DKs).

Galalin

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

As it stands Deathswind knocks back and incapacitates whoever charges you or hits you first for 15+ seconds. Is wearing that set considered an exploit as well?

It 4s seconds not 15. The idea being f you are being ganged up on by lots of melee fighters (yes melee) and they are within area....and you drop below 35% health they get a knockback (wind of death).

IMHO its a situational armour that offers nothing against magicka or ranged attacks. So I don't see it as OP. It offers nothing bow morphs dont offer except a 35% trigger and not as powerful.

I think what was meant is it bugs out sometimes causing the knockdown to last 15 sec+ in some cases

milthalas wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

I didn't run out and buy this set because i found out it was broken i already had it. if any of you would like to spend the1.25 million ap for me to buy another PvP set as an alternative until 1.5 speak up! Because i sure as hell dont have that much ap to waste until then. Im pretty sure if one of your sets gave you more than it should and you spent tons on it and couldn't afford somethong else, every fricking one of you would use it.

For what it's worth, Galalin was out there reaping a fresh harvest of AP at KC mill tonight, probably still is as I write this. I felt I'd made sufficient contributions to him and bowed out of the fight, though I did get a couple of kills and a fair bit of damage into him myself.

It is a tough situation when you invest so much in something that's about to change drastically and has that negative stigma. Personally I get tired of seeing it on my kill recap, but some of them were legitimate reflects and I don't feel like the ones that weren't would have led to my survival in those fights.

Mainly I should stop throwing myself against brick walls (DKs).

much respect... we had some good fights and hope it was as fun for you all as it was for us.

I definitely felt the pain exploding a few more times than I would have liked. I think I tried chasing you down a few times that ended in my early demise... none the less good times

Your local DK scrub

Sanct16

Imo this set isn't really this powerful. It is broken, true. As some people seem to not understand how it is broken, let me quickly explain it. The DoT itself doesn't stack but on some skills but you still get the initial hit. Moreover on some skills (for example crushing shock), the set will always proc. Crushing Shock consists of 3 hits making Twin Sisters proc 3 times. You will have just 1 DoT on you after it, but you take 3 times the initial hit. So with every Crushing Shock you useagainst someone wearing this set, you get hit for 450 damage, which is probably more than what the blocking target takes as damage.

This is a powerful effect of course, but it makes you wear medium armor, so your spell penetration will be a lot lower and your spells cost a lot more unless you go for spell cost reduction enchants, lowering your damage even more.
I didnt try it too much as it was already announced to be going to fixed when I bought the set for testing and I felt a lot weaker with it. Maybe if you do enough testing, it becomes viable and maybe even stronger than your normal setup but it is not like it was the total uber godmode set, as some people try to make it sound like.

Perhaps the reason why it didnt help me too much, is because as a DK most of the ranged attacks possibly hitting me get reflected anyway and it is stronger for other classes.

Tintinabula

Well its supposed to be fixed tomorrow.Ive been wondering if I should keep this set or upgrade it to gold and I got a gold jack of twin sisters as reward in our campaign so...guess Ill wait and see.

Galalin

Sanct16 wrote: »

Imo this set isn't really this powerful. It is broken, true. As some people seem to not understand how it is broken, let me quickly explain it. The DoT itself doesn't stack but on some skills but you still get the initial hit. Moreover on some skills (for example crushing shock), the set will always proc. Crushing Shock consists of 3 hits making Twin Sisters proc 3 times. You will have just 1 DoT on you after it, but you take 3 times the initial hit. So with every Crushing Shock you useagainst someone wearing this set, you get hit for 450 damage, which is probably more than what the blocking target takes as damage.

This is a powerful effect of course, but it makes you wear medium armor, so your spell penetration will be a lot lower and your spells cost a lot more unless you go for spell cost reduction enchants, lowering your damage even more.
I didnt try it too much as it was already announced to be going to fixed when I bought the set for testing and I felt a lot weaker with it. Maybe if you do enough testing, it becomes viable and maybe even stronger than your normal setup but it is not like it was the total uber godmode set, as some people try to make it sound like.

Perhaps the reason why it didnt help me too much, is because as a DK most of the ranged attacks possibly hitting me get reflected anyway and it is stronger for other classes.

Thank you... finally someone that can explain it to me. I could not agree with you more. Hopefully this fix will get rid of all the negative qq'ing about it and i wont have to defend myself from all the hate.

Galalin

Tintinabula wrote: »

Well its supposed to be fixed tomorrow.Ive been wondering if I should keep this set or upgrade it to gold and I got a gold jack of twin sisters as reward in our campaign so...guess Ill wait and see.

Gratz mine is only purple but hopefully i can upgrade over time. Hoping its still viable afyer the patch and not nerfed excessively into the dirt