Some thoughts about our mindsets

G0ku

Yesterday I saw the chat of my tradeguilds exploding with searches for parts of the Twin Sisters Set. I just didn´t care and proceeded to go into alliance war.

After a few fights it became clear: several death recaps telling me a single skill over and over again: Twin Sisters....

After searching the forums I started to report all these players for abusement of said set over and over again, particularly one who did it to the extreme.

My mates and me started to cleanse each other while fighting said players and killed them over and over again until they redrew from battle each time they spotted us.

As I logged in my home campaign I had to accept that exactly the player who abuses the bug of this set to the extreme has become emperor overnight.

So what does a "clean" player should take from this experience: are you considered a scrub if you don´t get your hands on broken things as soon as you get to know about it?

I would like to know if

- such players really feel some kind of accomplishment for getting on top of the leaderboard by abusing broken things

- ZOS don´t care enough about if they are informed that one of their designs leads to flawed gameplay

- it is typical for human behaviour to feel the need to get the hands on somethings as soons as you get knowledge of a way to obtain an unfair advantage

You should ask yourself if you want to the person who gets an achievement with bypassing other players by using questionable methods?

I know I will get scorched getting told I am just butthurt and stuff. But I can tell you I am more into PvE right now than PvP because of the issues of the overall performance in pvp and therefore I got no ambitions regarding emperor or such. I just feel sorry for all the clean players out there who could have become emperor if there wouldn´t be these guys who abuse the *** out of the system.

Agrippa_Invisus

They've said that the Twin Sisters set will be getting fixed this coming patch.

Desdemonte

There will always be users and abusers. Unfortunately ZOS is batting 0.000 on recognizing exploits quickly, taking them offline immediately and fixing the problem.

Maulkin

It goes beyond that, some people had the gull to complain in these forums that the fix to Twin Sisters is actually a nerf that is bad for the game because it apparently is a viable counter to zergballs.

Some even said it's a nerf specifically targeted at NBs (somehow).

Voodoo

as stated above and if you searched the forums you would know that zos intends to push a fix for this bug with patch 5.

Maulkin

Voodoo wrote: »

as stated above and if you searched the forums you would know that zos intends to push a fix for this bug with patch 5.

You're missing the point. The OP said nothing about ZOS or the incoming fix.

He was simply commenting on the mindset of people to go out and get a (acknowledged by ZOS) bugged set to basically exploit their way to huge AP gains. The mindset of people to basically abuse everything that is possible to abuse and somehow being content in achieving victory (whatever that is) by any means possible.

Lord_Draevan

Reminds me of when it was discovered that Bat Swarm could stack indefinitely to the point you could wipe entire raids untouched, or when it was found you could spawn at enemy safe zones, or that friendly caltrops negated enemy siege damage, or when Silver Shards caused the 5% chance 2k+ damage 100% of the time instead: people rushed to exploit it and milked it until it was patched.

That's people for you.

Armitas

My guess is they have a need to compensate for something they are deeply lacking in the real world. True self esteem. I'm not saying they are unsuccessful in real life, because success does not necessarily equate to real self esteem. They lack a true sense of self worth and are willing to accept an illusion to fill it.

I see PvP the same way I saw my college boxing club. Four of us stared a boxing club in college under the mentality that Iron sharpens Iron. We were not there to beat each other up, or get out our daily frustration. We fought for the sake of the other. You can see the same thing in professional boxing when both the winner and loser give each other a hug of thanks and respect at the end of the match. To us even a loss of the fight was a win. It was about growth and not "winning". The one who lost grew the most. It wasn't about growing more muscle mass or faster reflexes, because fighting grows the mind, the spirit, and the body at once.

You can't grow in any positive direction by using exploits. Your stats may grow, your name may grow on the leaderboard, but your personal talent is atrophying. A superbowl trophy is a symbol of the effort put behind it. Stealing that trophy and putting ones name on it may trick a few people into congratulation and respect, but that trophy will forever be a symbol of everything that person was unable to accomplish. It is actually a symbol of that persons weakness made available for all to see.

Dreyloch

I feel for ya OP, but it's war. Even if I find out about something like this, it's usually
too late to take advantage anyway. (I'm not playing a class that would use that set)

It's PvP. There are no boundries when it comes to having an advantage over you foe. It's kill or be killed, dog eat dog etc. etc..../more cliches'.

They only way you overcome is to find a counter to that attack. W/e works, be it an extra shield, different gear, something changed on your hotbar...

Cody

some people just think it makes them "beast" when they abuse broken crap like the twin sisters set, or the batswarm indefinite stack, or block and spam, and whatever other broken mechanic you can think of.

its frustrating, but all you can really do is deal with it. Let those people kid themselves all they want.

FluffiestOne

ZoS should start asking some of the people who actively hunt exploits about them. I mean, Andra and I have been using twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) and people start hopping on the band wagon. This stuff should be patched much faster than it takes to at the moment.

Xsorus

Rofl... I still can't believe it took people this long to figure out how powerful this set is/was

I mean bloody hell

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130118/official-discussion-thread-for-battlemasters-corner-dragonknight-reaver/p1

JackDaniell

G0ku wrote: »

- it is typical for human behavior to feel the need to get the hands on somethings as soon as you get knowledge of a way to obtain an unfair advantage

Unfortunately you could not be more right. The world around us is the way it is and continues to be so because it is run by those who will stop at nothing and use every unfair advantage they can to achieve their own personal goals regardless of how it affects others.

What does however surprise me is the frequency at which this occurs in a fake world (such as a video game) where all actions in the world are limited to that world. In the end, anything achieved in the fake world good or bad means nothing, unless it pays your bills in the real world. This game does not exactly have the fan base of other games so someone being paid to win is very unlikely, much less that anyone would pay to watch someone exploit to win.

But then again, it is just a game in the sense that even if you cheat it is not important. But psychologically speaking people tend to behave the same way regardless of what they are doing, so perhaps this does translate into how those individuals act in the real world. However this is not something that can be determined unless it were a case to case basis.

I play the game for fun, and I have never had fun cheating in the games I play because it defeats the purpose of playing the game. I don't buy a new TES game to type /godmode and play the entire game through while invincible

Nestor

Armitas wrote: »

My guess is they have a need to compensate for something they are deeply lacking in the real world. True self esteem. I'm not saying they are unsuccessful in real life, because success does not necessarily equate to real self esteem. They lack a true sense of self worth and are willing to accept an illusion to fill it.

Nah. Gamers are going to game. Expecting someone to not use something to their advantage is the unreasonable expectation.

People will seek out any advantage they can in a competitive situation. Smokey Yunick did it with NASCAR, Bellicheck did it with the NFL, Armstrong in Bicycling. There is an old saying in competition, it's only cheating if you get caught. That is why there are referees and officials that over look the competition, to root out people doing things like this. Otherwise, the teams would show up and the zebras would stay home.

Now, that being said, it's not Cricket to abuse something like this for an advantage. However, the advantage is available to anyone in the game as it applies to everyone who can get or has the set. So, this is really non issue.

It is only up to ZOS to fix the issue so that people can't use it anymore.

Armitas

Cheating is valuable for getting ahead, but is cheating itself valuable? We hold virtue because it is self evidently valuable, but we do not hold cheating as valuable. Instead we hold it as an expedient vice.

The real question is what is the grounding of virtue, or a right or wrong behavior. It is either real or it is an illusion. It should either be wholly accepted or wholly rejected, but it cannot be arbitrarily regarded. Not honestly anyway.

Armitas

Nestor wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

My guess is they have a need to compensate for something they are deeply lacking in the real world. True self esteem. I'm not saying they are unsuccessful in real life, because success does not necessarily equate to real self esteem. They lack a true sense of self worth and are willing to accept an illusion to fill it.

Nah. Gamers are going to game. Expecting someone to not use something to their advantage is the unreasonable expectation.

Steroids are an advantage in sports but I don't expect that someone will use them. I expect them to behave in a sportsman like manner. If they are just a bunch of crooks and thieves what would be the value of the trophy or the game itself?

Erock25

Cody wrote: »

some people just think it makes them "beast" when they abuse broken crap like the twin sisters set, or the batswarm indefinite stack, or block and spam, and whatever other broken mechanic you can think of.

its frustrating, but all you can really do is deal with it. Let those people kid themselves all they want.

This guy coming into every thread acting like using skills while blocking is akin to an exploit.

Nestor

Armitas wrote: »

Steroids are an advantage in sports but I don't expect that someone will use them. I expect them to behave in a sportsman like manner. If they are just a bunch of crooks and thieves what would be the value of the trophy or the game itself?

Then why is there testing for steroids? Why are so many players in sports trying to use them or something like them to gain as advantage? You can't have that expectation that no one is going to use PEDs as the reality says otherwise. As I said, it's going to happen. You fixed the issue yourself by killing them over and over again until you took their fun away and they quit.

I said it ain't cricket to do this, but it is going to happen in a competitive environment. The fact that someone else exploits a broken game mechanic does not make them crooks and thieves. If they stole the items that gave them this exploit, or modded the game so that they had something that no one else could get would make them crooks and thieves.

Either you adapt and stay within your principals or you don't. You adapted, you overcame and took their advantage away and you stuck to your principals. You showed you are a better player of the game than they are because you beat them despite the exploit they were using. Hold your head high and wait for ZOS to fix this, which they will in about 65 hours.

Armitas

Nestor wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Steroids are an advantage in sports but I don't expect that someone will use them. I expect them to behave in a sportsman like manner. If they are just a bunch of crooks and thieves what would be the value of the trophy or the game itself?

Then why is there testing for steroids? Why are so many players in sports trying to use them or something like them to gain as advantage? You can't have that expectation that no one is going to use PEDs as the reality says otherwise. As I said, it's going to happen. You fixed the issue yourself by killing them over and over again until you took their fun away and they quit.

I said it ain't cricket to do this, but it is going to happen in a competitive environment. The fact that someone else exploits a broken game mechanic does not make them crooks and thieves. If they stole the items that gave them this exploit, or modded the game so that they had something that no one else could get would make them crooks and thieves.

Either you adapt and stay within your principals or you don't. You adapted, you overcame and took their advantage away and you stuck to your principals. You showed you are a better player of the game than they are because you beat them despite the exploit they were using. Hold your head high and wait for ZOS to fix this, which they will in about 65 hours.

There is testing for steroids because people have used steroids, but that does not mean that I should expect that all players are using steroids. There are many reasons a player may use illegal steroids, but none of those reasons are acceptable reasons to use them.

The term Crook in the legal sense comes from it's shape, not straight. Straight meaning, in that context, parallel to right behavior or the law. In that sense crook is applicable to one who exploits.

I think that a principle that is derived internally is meaningless and certainly arbitrary. Either it exists externally and objective or it is mere subjective illusion. I think most people would agree that there is a real right and wrong. It may not always be clear but as far as the existence of right and wrong I would think most agree on it.

Now because principles and virtues are so compellingly real, prescriptive even, I do have an expectation that people should adhere to them. Do not steal, do not murder etc. In the probabilistic sense I expect people and myself to fail to be virtuous, but I don't expect them in the obligatory sense to fail to be virtuous. We are not obliged to behave poorly, on the contrary we are seemingly obliged to behave rightly by a deep mystery.

Gooey

FluffiestOne wrote: »

ZoS should start asking some of the people who actively hunt exploits about them. I mean, Andra and I have been using twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) and people start hopping on the band wagon. This stuff should be patched much faster than it takes to at the moment.

Or ZOS could play their own game. Well, they don't even have to go that far, they could just ask some of the pvp guilds whats working and whats not in pvp.

Columba

It's ridiculous that this exploit went on so long. It should have been immediately hot fixed, or better, prevented from getting into he game.

People who exploit like this have nothing else going for them. Defeating a 3 year old in tackle football would be an accomplishment for them.

Columba

Erock25 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

some people just think it makes them "beast" when they abuse broken crap like the twin sisters set, or the batswarm indefinite stack, or block and spam, and whatever other broken mechanic you can think of.

its frustrating, but all you can really do is deal with it. Let those people kid themselves all they want.

This guy coming into every thread acting like using skills while blocking is akin to an exploit.

Better than people who defend exploits.

kijima

I'm taking performance enhancing drugs right now in an aid to improve my fast twitch fibres for ESO.

Am I doing it wrong?

Ezareth

kijima wrote: »

I'm taking performance enhancing drugs right now in an aid to improve my fast twitch fibres for ESO.

Am I doing it wrong?

I eat biscuits to improve my fast twitch fibers. Nothing improves cardio like biscuits!

On a serious note, I think there are people who will use anything and everything in the game to achieve victory and there will always be those kind of people. In the end however the victory is hollow and you just have to let is pass through you. Take pride in the knowledge that you're successful without having to resort to exploits and broken mechanics and this kind of stuff wont bother you as much.

Redlags

This game is home of the exploiter. Wake up. It get worse each patch and the answer is in fast dev interaction. That isn't happening.

Gooey

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

I'm taking performance enhancing drugs right now in an aid to improve my fast twitch fibres for ESO.

Am I doing it wrong?

I eat biscuits to improve my fast twitch fibers. Nothing improves cardio like biscuits!

On a serious note, I think there are people who will use anything and everything in the game to achieve victory and there will always be those kind of people. In the end however the victory is hollow and you just have to let is pass through you. Take pride in the knowledge that you're successful without having to resort to exploits and broken mechanics and this kind of stuff wont bother you as much.

Word.

kijima

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I eat biscuits to improve my fast twitch fibers. Nothing improves cardio like biscuits!

Gorilla Biscuits?

michaelb14a_ESO2

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Andra and I have been using twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) and people start hopping on the band wagon.

Let me fix that for you "champ":

Andra and I have been using exploiting twin sisters before it was cool (hipster status) made public and people start hopping on the band wagon.

AhPook_Is_Here

Twin Sisters set seems to be bugged, it activates 100% of the time on block. It doesn't let you win every fight, but players are taking advantage of it's broken effect rate and also the ranged damage it can cause from arrows and standing on caltrops.

People are not getting on the leader boards on Thornblade using that set. Mostly it is people standing around suicide nodes who get 500-1500 AP per kill by doing 1 light attack and stealthing again; then getting a 2k to 4k defense tick from solo defending that node a few seconds later.

Again, shady, cheesy, pathetic, but they are defending a node, one that others are using to kill themselves at to bypass the transportation system using camps. Exploiting the exploiters.

KBKB

The ones cheating are usually the ones screaming "bads L2P" from their high horse.

To sum it up they are grubby people who fail to excel in other areas of life so need to do it here through exploits. I wouldn't group with them, and if i was guilded with them I would leave them on their pat malone.


I Also don't adhere to joke of a no naming and shaming policy. If some scrub wants to roll around one shotting, capping scrolls from closed gates or crashing the server we should name them so they can be forced out of the game by decent players. The only thing naming and shaming does is help the exploiter out and keep zeni's subs on the + a *** joke really.

Ezareth

kijima wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I eat biscuits to improve my fast twitch fibers. Nothing improves cardio like biscuits!

Gorilla Biscuits?

Pillsbury. With melted mozzarella, rosemary, oregano, basil and garlic and a touch of olive oil.